FANTASY: You're running the next South Eastern franchise. What would you do?

[Esker-pades]

Fantasy yes its possible, but I seriously doubt there will ever be a "Brixton High Level" at least not for a couple of decades, would be better to utilise existing infrastructure and make a cross South London service 1tph would suffice.

1tph across London is fairly pointless. It should be at least 2tph.

 

[NorthKent1989]

1tph across London is fairly pointless. It should be at least 2tph.

Initially it would be 1tph, I'm certain such a service would become popular at would quickly be raised to 2tph, however I'm also taking into account the fact that LO want to upgrade the South London line to 6tph long term

The South Croydon to Milton Keynes train is currently 1tph, but should be raised to 2tph if possible

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Fantasy yes its possible, but I seriously doubt there will ever be a "Brixton High Level" at least not for a couple of decades, would be better to utilise existing infrastructure and make a cross South London service 1tph would suffice.

The best thing for Brixton is a complete rebuild of the station and make a better interchange to the Victoria line.

How will you make this service terminate at Clapham? Short platforms, no way of running through (realistically) down the Windsor lines. Bad idea!

 

[Typhoon]

My family, who still live in Kent, use HS1 a lot, and they mention that it is often very overcrowded. Just removing the HS1 would likely increase overcrowding.

I think a lot of this is down to Ebbsfleet - numbers up about 60% in 4 years and big housing developments planned in the vicinity. The trains I've been on always seem to be heaving on the St Pancras - Ebbsfleet section (although never travelled late morning to mid afternoon),

 

[yorksrob]

I think a lot of this is down to Ebbsfleet - numbers up about 60% in 4 years and big housing developments planned in the vicinity. The trains I've been on always seem to be heaving on the St Pancras - Ebbsfleet section (although never travelled late morning to mid afternoon),

That's interesting. Last time I went through there it was like a wasteland.

 

[Typhoon]

That's interesting. Last time I went through there it was like a wasteland.

I think it is midday, I've been through there 08.00-10.00 (to town) and 15.00-17.00 (back). The platform was pretty full when catching trains to town. I've learnt to sit on the outside near the door when getting off at Stratford after struggling to get to the door when sitting mid-carriage.
I've been on buses that go through Ebbsfleet mid morning (half ten onwards), no-one gets off, no-one gets on but the car parks are pretty full. Quicker than going through Dartford, Woolwich/ Lewisham, I guess.

 

[BluePenguin]

Ah my new favourite thread topic.

I would make a large amount of changes:

- Restore the Tonbridge - Redhill line to Southeastern and run direct services to Gatwick without changing
- Restore at least 4tph fast services to Charing Cross from Ramsgate via Dover Priory/Canterbury West calling only at Ashford Intl, Tonbridge and Waterloo East
- Restore fast services to Victoria from Dover and Ramsgate
- Restore the direct Ashford Intl - Brighton service and extend some services to Portsmouth, Southampton, Weymouth and possibly Bristol
- Restore Gillingham - Charing Cross services and but extendend to Ramsgate, with a semi fast starting from Faversham
- Introduce express mainline services to St Pancras Intl through the Thameslink core
- Introduce new extra late night services at the weekend
- Introduce a new half hourly direct service to Canterbury from Sandwich via Minster
- Bring back the buffet trolley on off peak services
- Introduce non stop services from Ashford Intl and Gravesend to St Pancras Intl
- Remove Ebbsfleet Intl from all peak services apart from those via the Medway towns
- Every other off peak service will not stop at Ebbsfleet Intl
- Every other off peak service will call at Ebbsfleet Intl off peak to connect with Eurostar services (with those that do not calling at Stratford Intl)

 

[Doomotron]

- Restore the direct Ashford Intl - Brighton service and extend some services to Portsmouth, Southampton, Weymouth and possibly Bristol

You might have an issue there No real way to get to the West Coastway from the East. You might have to reverse at Wivelsfield or Haywards Heath for that to work, but that would lose the Brighton stop if a) the train is longer than 4 coaches or b) you don't want two reversals. Also, Weymouth in the Southeastern franchise? Seems a bit too far for me, unless you're going by NSE standards...

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Ah my new favourite thread topic.

I would make a large amount of changes:

- Restore the Tonbridge - Redhill line to Southeastern and run direct services to Gatwick without changing
- Restore at least 4tph fast services to Charing Cross from Ramsgate via Dover Priory/Canterbury West calling only at Ashford Intl, Tonbridge and Waterloo East
- Restore fast services to Victoria from Dover and Ramsgate
- Restore the direct Ashford Intl - Brighton service and extend some services to Portsmouth, Southampton, Weymouth and possibly Bristol
- Restore Gillingham - Charing Cross services and but extendend to Ramsgate, with a semi fast starting from Faversham
- Introduce express mainline services to St Pancras Intl through the Thameslink core
- Introduce new extra late night services at the weekend
- Introduce a new half hourly direct service to Canterbury from Sandwich via Minster
- Bring back the buffet trolley on off peak services
- Introduce non stop services from Ashford Intl and Gravesend to St Pancras Intl
- Remove Ebbsfleet Intl from all peak services apart from those via the Medway towns
- Every other off peak service will not stop at Ebbsfleet Intl
- Every other off peak service will call at Ebbsfleet Intl off peak to connect with Eurostar services (with those that do not calling at Stratford Intl)

I agree with part of these (e.g. Strood to Redhill, 2tph express services down from Charing X to Ashford, decent services at the weekend and such).

Then again, some are barmy. Examples include Ashford - Bristol / Weymouth / Southampton / Portsmouth; Charing Cross to Ramsgate via Woolwich; St Pancras overnight trains and such...

 

[ScotGG]

Ebbsfleet is only about 10% complete so if struggling now at peaks then god knows what it'll be like in 10 years.

Not that it's *that* large. 15k homes when complete. To compare, Greenwich is seeing 25k new homes (the town itself not the borough, Charlton around 10k homes and Deptford around 5-10k. And that's just one small-ish part of London served by SE. Of course there is the tube (though only right at the northern tip of Greenwich by the o2) but any Crossrail relief could be shortlived.

 

[Lexicon10uk]

I'm not an expert on this at all but I had a play based on the peak time service ran yesterday between 1700 and 1800. I may have missed things out but here goes:

St Pancras International (HS1)

1tph Dover Priory calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Ashford International, Folkestone West, Folkestone Central, Dover Priory

1tph Ramsgate via Gillingham calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne, Faversham, Whistable, Herne Bay, Birchington-on-Sea, Margate, Broadstairs, Dumpton Park and Ramsgate

1tph Ramsgate via Ashford International calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Ashford International, Folkestone West, Folkestone Central, Dover Priory, Martin Mill, Walmer, Deal, Sandwich and Ramsgate

1tph Maidstone West calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Gravesend, Stood, Snodland, Maidstone West

1tph Margate calling at calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Ashford International, Canterbury West, Ramsgate, Broadstairs, Margate

1tph Broadstairs via Gillingham calling at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet International, Strood, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne, Faversham, Whistable, Herne Bay, Birchington-on-Sea, Margate, Broadstairs


London Cannon Street (Metro Only)

4tph Dartford via Greenwich calling all stations.

4tph London Cannon Street via Sidcup and Bexleyheath calling all stations.

4tph London Cannon Street via Bexleyheath and Sidcup calling all stations.

2tph Gravesend via Sidcup calling all stations.

1tph Dartford via Bexleyheath calling all stations.

3tph Sevenoaks via Grove Park calling London Bridge, Hither Green, Grove Park, Elmstead Woods, Chislehurst, Petts Wood, Orpington, Chelsfield, Knockholt, Dunton Green, Sevenoaks.

3tph Hayes via Catford Bridge calling all stations.

Peak Extras to Folkestone Central, Ramsgate, Dover Priory and Hastings.

London Charing Cross (Metro and Long Distance)

2tph Rainham via Sidcup calling Waterloo East, London Bridge, Hither Green, Sidcup, Crayford, Dartford, Greenhithe, Gravesend, Higham, Strood, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham and Rainham.

2tph Gravesend via Woolwich Arsenal calling Waterloo East, London Bridge, Lewisham, Blackheath, Charlton, Woolwich Arsenal, Abbey Wood, Slade Green, Dartford, Greenhithe and Gravesend.

2tph Gravesend via Bexleyheath calling all stations.

2tph Orpington calling all stations.

2tph Ramsgate calling at Waterloo East, London Bridge then non-stop to Sevenoaks then all stations to Ramsgate via Ashford International and Folkestone West.

3tph Tunbridge Wells via Sevenoaks calling at Waterloo East, London Bridge then non-stop to Chelsfield then Sevenoaks then all stations to Tunbridge Wells.

1tph Dover Priory calling at Waterloo East, London Bridge then non-stop to Sevenoaks then all stations to Dover Priory via Ashford International and Folkestone West.

3tph Hayes via Catford Bridge calling all stations.

London Blackfriars (Metro and Long Distance)

2tph Rainham via Bromley South calling at Elephant and Castle, Bromley South, St Mary Cray, Swanley Farningham Road, Longfield, Meopham, Sole Street, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham and Rainham (Thameslink Service)

2tph Beckenham Junction calling all stations.

1tph Ashford International calling Elephant and Castle then non-stop to Bromley South then all stations to Ashford International via Maidstone East.

London Victoria (Long Distance)

2tph Orpington calling at Brixton then all stations to Orpington.

2tph Dartford via Bexleyheath calling at Brixton then all stations to Dartford.

2tph Dover Priory via Maidstone East calling at Bromley South, Otford then all stations to Dover Priory.

1tph to Ramsgate via Gillingham calling Bromley South, Rochester then all stations to Ramsgate.

1tph to Sheerness-on-Sea via Gillingham calling at Bromley South, Rochester then all stations to Sheerness-on-Sea.

Others

3tph Bromley North shuttle.

2tph Sheerness-on-Sea shuttle.


All metro services run as 10 car made up of class 707s and refurbished 376s.

All long distance run as 10 car where needed made up of 375s and 377s with an order of 707s at IC spec to supplement.

Bromley North and Sheeness-on-Sea shuttle run as 2 car class 466 refurbished to the standard of the Class 321 Renatus units.

Just one high speed train per hour for Gravesend? The busiest station on the North Kent HS route?
The busiest interchange station for HS/metro services?
Hmm.

 

[Cletus]

One thing i would like to see is the 395's use the high speed line between Ashford and Dollands Moor.

From Dollands Moor to Folkestone West would be wired and the changeover would take place there.

This would bring about a reduction in journey times from Dover Priory (and surrounding stations) to St Pancras.

Even without the above, it is locally wished that Dover Priory to St Pancras could be reduced to 60 minutes (or less). There appears to be an amount of padding between Dover and Folkestone, the slow down into Ashford begins very early and there often seems to be a delay awaiting a platform at St Pancras.

 

[urpert]

Make Shortlands, Kent House, Penge East, West Dulwich and Brixton properly step free.

 

[Clip]

Extortionate = anything over and above the ordinary non-HS fare to a given point in Kent.

Charing Cross = Trafalgar Square, the west end, Westminster, etc, Waterloo = West country, London Bridge = the City etc.

And yet the Javelins are chocker in the peaks with lots getting off at Stratford and still lots piling out at pancakes so maybe your hyperbole is not quite warranted?

 

[yorksrob]

And yet the Javelins are chocker in the peaks with lots getting off at Stratford and still lots piling out at pancakes so maybe your hyperbole is not quite warranted?

I don't think its hyperbole to point out that the terminals on the Southern edge of London are quite handily sited for many things.

Fares between London and Kent are already quite expensive enough to my mind, without a ten pound supplement.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I don't think its hyperbole to point out that the terminals on the Southern edge of London are quite handily sited for many things.

Fares between London and Kent are already quite expensive enough to my mind, without a ten pound supplement.

Hard to argue this point.

The traditional terminals will always be in demand, just for the fact they’re so conveniently placed for the West End and the City, which St. Pancras is located in neither, most of the main sights in London are in the West End, so naturally most people will head to CX or Victoria because those sights are a walkable distance, St. Pancras has an awkward tube interchange to get to the West End via the packed and busy Piccadilly and Northern lines

 

[Clip]

Hard to argue this point.

The traditional terminals will always be in demand, just for the fact they’re so conveniently placed for the West End and the City, which St. Pancras is located in neither, most of the main sights in London are in the West End, so naturally most people will head to CX or Victoria because those sights are a walkable distance, St. Pancras has an awkward tube interchange to get to the West End via the packed and busy Piccadilly and Northern lines

Its not really hard to argue the point seeing as the HS1 trains are rammed also.

 

[Mikey C]

It was quite notable catching a Thameslink Rainham service into London from Charlton last Saturday how many people got off at London Bridge, and that the train didn't fill up again until Farringdon and St Pancras.

Cannon Street, London Bridge, Waterloo East and Charing Cross are all really useful terminals, indeed SE passengers have always been blessed in this respect!

 

[NorthKent1989]

It was quite notable catching a Thameslink Rainham service into London from Charlton last Saturday how many people got off at London Bridge, and that the train didn't fill up again until Farringdon and St Pancras.

Cannon Street, London Bridge, Waterloo East and Charing Cross are all really useful terminals, indeed SE passengers have always been blessed in this respect!

Kinda makes you wonder if they'll be able to sell the plans they have for 2022, by axing CX trains from the Woolwich line? CX despite being 2tph on this line is often very busy and packed more so than the CS & Thameslink trains, it'll be a very hard battle for the new franchise to implement this especially since the Bexleyheath line trains will have 4tph CX trains, thereby nulling the simplification of Lewisham Junction void, since that was the reason for this plan in the first place

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Kinda makes you wonder if they'll be able to sell the plans they have for 2022, by axing CX trains from the Woolwich line? CX despite being 2tph on this line is often very busy and packed more so than the CS & Thameslink trains, it'll be a very hard battle for the new franchise to implement this especially since the Bexleyheath line trains will have 4tph CX trains, thereby nulling the simplification of Lewisham Junction void, since that was the reason for this plan in the first place

Indeed - I said that we had to get rid of Victoria services from our line despite opposition in my own house and further afield. But then they went ahead and made extra conflicts - yikes!

 

[NorthKent1989]

Indeed - I said that we had to get rid of Victoria services from our line despite opposition in my own house and further afield. But then they went ahead and made extra conflicts - yikes!

Well with this new timetable, Woolwich Dockyard, Plumstead, Belvedere, Erith and Slade Green for the first time in years have a direct off peak service to CX, (probably one of the better aspects of the Timetable change) after previously having to change at either Abbey Wood, Woolwich Arsenal or Charlton to do so, so I will enjoy the new franchise telling commuters there that they will.lose CX as a terminal

Its not as if they're making all of the North Kent & Bexleyheath line trains CS trains only, Bexleyheath will have 4tph to CX, keeping the conflicting moves at Lewisham, so they may as well send 2tph down to Woolwich and Erith.

And if the fasts are ever reintroduce on the line down to Gillingham then they should be sent into CS via Greenwich which os a faster route than via Lewisham anyway.

 

[Jass]

Restore the new cross call for cannon street to tunbridge wells services, allowing connections to overground and potentially tube from new cross gate. Restore the charing cross to gillingham semi fast but extend it to sittingbourne for connections to sheerness. Fasts from ashford to london bridge. Shuttle from new beckenham to beckenham junction