Far-right protests

[nw1]

Looks like a far-right Telgram group with >10000 members is sharing a list of immigration-related charities, advice centres and solicitors as targets for arson attacks on Wednesday night. The group also includes calls to murder ethnic minorities, anti-fascists and government ministers.

Just wait until they find out, that Telegram channels aren't end-to-end encrypted messengers...

Must be time to invoke the anti-terror laws now on these particular people.

 

[1D54]

Any comments from Starmer on the events in Birmingham last night? What went on doesn't fit his narrative of 'far right-wing thugs' so I'll not be holding my breath!

The above was reported by BBC WM.

 

[nw1]

Any comments from Starmer on the events in Birmingham last night? What went on doesn't fit his narrative of 'far right-wing thugs' so I'll not be holding my breath!

I presume you mean this:
(https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cw5yyynpwnzt)

Earlier we reported on unrest in the east of Birmingham after hundreds of people gathered in the Bordesley Green area following false reports that a far-right march had been planned there.

Palestinian flags were waved and anti-English Defence League chants were heard at the gathering. A group of youths later broke away and reportedly attacked several vehicles and a pub.

West Midlands Police has released a statement which says officers are investigating reports of an assault and damage to a pub.

The force said: "No arrests have been made at this stage but there were sporadic incidents and we are investigating reports of an assault, incidents of criminal damage to a pub on Stoney Lane, a car which had its windows smashed on Alcombe Grove, Stechford, and further criminal damage to a vehicle which had its tyres damaged on Belchers Lane, Bordesley Green.

"We are also investigating reports of a man who was in possession of an offensive weapon."

Ch Supt Richard North added: “Fortunately rumours of the significant protest activity in the city didn’t materialise. "There were several sporadic incidents of criminality during the evening and we will work hard to arrest those responsible."

It is one incident compared to the many which were indeed caused by far-right thugs.

It does not in any way provide any evidence that Starmer's overall narrative is incorrect.

You're just seizing on this particular incident to attempt to justify your own political view on the situation, I suspect - while conveniently ignoring the huge numbers of riots actually caused by the far-right.

 

[alex397]

Any comments from Starmer on the events in Birmingham last night? What went on doesn't fit his narrative of 'far right-wing thugs' so I'll not be holding my breath!

Seems you’re not interesting in recognising that the vast majority of these riots have been caused by far-right thugs who have been fooled by misinformation following a tragic incident.
Unfortunately it’s not surprising that other groups will be retaliating - after all they’ve been watching certain group being targeted simply for being from a certain group.

I think footage of immigrants being targeted by having their hotel set on fire (attempted murder) is going to upset a few people, especially if they may be from an immigrant background.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

He's blaming others. It's all the fault of the "soft policing" of the BLM protests (which were, erm, mostly protests against racism. OK, let's just let racism continue then).

Are you saying it was OK for the BLM protesters to break the law and commit acts of vandalism because (in your mind) their cause was good?

I suspect if people like him and others hadn't been sounding off about immigration for the past ten years, these riots would not have happened. Led on by social-media figures but also by right-wing loudmouth politicians such as Farage, Le Pen and Trump, fanatical anti-immigrationism has been allowed to build up in the UK, and the West in general, and has become normalised amongst significant sections of the population, and now we're paying the price.

You appear to be (rightly) criticising Nigel Farage for deflecting the blame off the rioters, and then doing exactly the same thing yourself that you've just criticised Farage for. He's somewhat trying to deflect the blame onto immigration. You're deflecting the blame on to politicians who call for lower immigration. But you're both trying to deflect the blame. Why not just agree that the rioting and attacks we've seen are utterly awful, despicable, and unacceptable, and the people to blame are the rioters themselves.

By the way, in your World, what are those of us who believe that immigration is too high supposed to do? Are we supposed to just shut up about our beliefs and never say anything, just in case some idiots and far-right trouble-makers start mis-using what we say?

 

[jon0844]

Point of order: "geek" is generally not an insult in the computing world: it generally means someone who is very into, and very competent at, programming and other technical computing skills.

Calling Musk a geek is an insult to respected geeks!

But apart from that, good point!

He'd love to be considered a geek, but I recall this going around Twitter not long after Elon outed himself by showing his true colours.

I can't really attribute it to any one person as loads of people copied and pasted it.

He talked about electric cars. I don't know anything about cars, so when people said he was a genius I figured he must be a genius.

Then he talked about rockets. I don't know anything about rockets, so when people said he was a genius I figured he must be a genius.

Now he talks about software. I happen to know a lot about software & Elon Musk is saying the stupidest s**t I've ever heard anyone say, so when people say he's a genius I figure I should stay the hell away from his cars and rockets.

 

[DarloRich]

Why not just agree that the rioting and attacks we've seen are utterly awful, despicable, and unacceptable, and the people to blame are the rioters.

Correct - however Farage and many others have played a part in producing this situation. Thier rhetoric is partly to blame. They built the bonfire, poured on the petrol and handed out the matches. They didn't light the match but they made sure people knew how to.

You must surely accept that even if you think immigration is too high. That doesn't seem controversial

 

[alex397]

By the way, in your World, what are those of us who believe that immigration is too high supposed to do? Are we supposed to just shut up about our beliefs and never say anything, just in case some idiots and far-right trouble-makers start mis-using what we say?

There’s a difference between being concerned about immigration, and the bile that comes out from Reform supporters, who tend to talk about immigrants as if they are sub-human. That language is just designed to inflame.

 

[Bantamzen]

Seems you’re not interesting in recognising that the vast majority of these riots have been caused by far-right thugs who have been fooled by misinformation following a tragic incident.
Unfortunately it’s not surprising that other groups will be retaliating - after all they’ve been watching certain group being targeted simply for being from a certain group.

I think footage of immigrants being targeted by having their hotel set on fire (attempted murder) is going to upset a few people, especially if they may be from an immigrant background.

Just as news of young children being stabbed to death might upset some people?

There's not enough information yet on what exactly happened in Birmingham last night, but from what there is it appears that a group of pro-Palestine protestors broke away, started to be violent and, committed an assault & potentially attacked a pub. If it transpires that these reported events did happen, should perpetrators not be dealt with in a similar manner to those attacking a hotel with immigrants residing there?

 

[DarloRich]

should perpetrators not be dealt with in a similar manner to those attacking a hotel with immigrants residing there?

of course. I am sure they will be

 

[1D54]

I presume you mean this:
(https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cw5yyynpwnzt)



It is one incident compared to the many which were indeed caused by far-right thugs.

It does not in any way provide any evidence that Starmer's overall narrative is incorrect.

You're just seizing on this particular incident to attempt to justify your own political view on the situation, I suspect - while conveniently ignoring the huge numbers of riots actually caused by the far-right.

I absolutely deplore all violence no matter who is involved in it but it has to be called out for what it is by the PM. His silent approach is helping no one, three weeks in to the job and he already has negative ratings.... Things can only get better!!!

 

[jon0844]

Silent approach? He's been talking every day.

 

[AlterEgo]

Starmer then chucked petrol on the fire when he immediately termed people as " far right " and compared concerned citizens to football hooligans!!

Show me where he said that.

 

[dosxuk]

Just as news of young children being stabbed to death might upset some people?

Don't try and use that incident to justify the actions of those who have been rioting for the past week. The idiots aren't out there trying to burn down hotels full of the Welsh, and they're not marching on churches. What they are doing has nothing in common with that incident, and people need to stop thinking they have any sort of excuse or validation reason for their behaviour.

It is absolutely possible to be upset, angry and saddened by the stabbing in Southport, while also not feeling like you need to go and set fire to a library or start a fight with the Police. People doing the latter, those that encourage them and those that support them are far more of the problem with Britain today than the asylum seekers who are being housed in the hotels that have been attacked.

 

[nlogax]

but it has to be called out for what it is by the PM. His silent approach is helping no one

I must have imagined the press conferences, public statements, COBR meetings etc etc.

 

[Bantamzen]

Don't try and use that incident to justify the actions of those who have been rioting for the past week. The idiots aren't out there trying to burn down hotels full of the Welsh, and they're not marching on churches. What they are doing has nothing in common with that incident, and people need to stop thinking they have any sort of excuse or validation reason for their behaviour.

It is absolutely possible to be upset, angry and saddened by the stabbing in Southport, while also not feeling like you need to go and set fire to a library or start a fight with the Police. People doing the latter, those that encourage them and those that support them are far more of the problem with Britain today than the asylum seekers who are being housed in the hotels that have been attacked.

Excuse me? Who is trying to make excuses for anything? I was simply pointing out that causing violence because of the attacks on the hotels is just as bad as causing violence because of the attacks on those children.

 

[blue87]

Anyone starting to think this weekends football fixtures could be affected? It's the opening weekend of the EFL and National League as well as the Community Shield. Police resources will already be drained if more demonstrations are planned.

 

[alex397]

Just as news of young children being stabbed to death might upset some people?

There's not enough information yet on what exactly happened in Birmingham last night, but from what there is it appears that a group of pro-Palestine protestors broke away, started to be violent and, committed an assault & potentially attacked a pub. If it transpires that these reported events did happen, should perpetrators not be dealt with in a similar manner to those attacking a hotel with immigrants residing there?

We don’t know exactly what they did yet, but I certainly think they should be held responsible for any assault or vandalism. We don’t know if they actually tried to burn people alive like the far-right tried to do at the hotel though - that’s another level.

The events in Southport had nothing to do with immigrants - it was inflamed by misinformation. Whereas we can see for sure that the far-right are targeting ethnic minorities

 

[Bantamzen]

We don’t know exactly what they did yet, but I certainly think they should be held responsible for any assault or vandalism. We don’t know if they actually tried to burn people alive like the far-right tried to do at the hotel though - that’s another level.

The events in Southport had nothing to do with immigrants - it was inflamed by misinformation. Whereas we can see for sure that the far-right are targeting ethnic minorities

That's why I said there wasn't enough information yet....

 

[WelshBluebird]

Generally speaking I try to ignore what that prat comes out with. However one small thing he did say is a least partially true:


Now I don't think the policing was "soft" as he describes it, but it did seed the impression to many that different demographic groups get policed differently.

Different demographics don't get policed differently. Different events do. The BLM protest were no where near as violent as these riots. Harehills was a spontaneous riot that the police were not initially prepared for (so they did the sensible thing of falling back, collecting evidence and then arrested those responsible when things had claimed down - actually one of the tactics they've been using this week too).

Also worth remembering that the police aren't just one homogeneous group. We have different police forces that each work slightly differently. Some are more likely to wait, collect evidence then arrest as that is often less likely to further inflame the situation.

And just to be clear I know some people will say "but I don't perceive any difference", but there are a substantial number of people who do believe it.

The problem with that is the perception is so different to reality that nothing you can do will change their minds. So then what?

Are you saying it was OK for the BLM protesters to break the law and commit acts of vandalism because (in your mind) their cause was good?

Were the BLM protests setting fire to hotels with the expressed aim of killing people in them? Or trying to drag people out of cars whilst shouting slurs and chanting kill them? No? Then we can't compare it.

By the way, in your World, what are those of us who believe that immigration is too high supposed to do?

Vote for parties who have policies to reduce it. Vote for different parties if they don't keep their word when in power (or create one ifnthe alternatives are actively racist). Distance yourself from the racists and don't use terms and phrases that we know are dog whistles to them, actually actively show that you do not welcome them. Totally and utterly reject the various conspiracy theories going around (two tier policing, "great replacement" etc etc). Suggest realistic solutions to the issues that reducing migration would cause. Suggest realitic policy options rather than just "less of them" (e.g. skills based etc). Then maybe we could have an adult conversation about it. I'd still likely disagree with you but at least then we'd be discussing policy options and decisions rather than the absolute mess that conversation is right now.

 

[AlterEgo]

white working class people who rightly or wrongly do feel increasingly isolated from the rest of society. Everyday they see all sorts of divergence celebrated apart from their own

What sort of divergence does the white working class have? it is the one of the largest demographic groups in the country. They are the norm. Divergent communities are ones which are not part of the societal mainstream. That's why the message is "taking our country back" - they think they own it and have a unique claim to it, unlike other, actually divergent communities.

 

[Bantamzen]

Different demographics don't get policed differently. Different events do. The BLM protest were no where near as violent as these riots. Harehills was a spontaneous riot that the police were not initially prepared for (so they did the sensible thing of falling back, collecting evidence and then arrested those responsible when things had claimed down - actually one of the tactics they've been using this week too).

Also worth remembering that the police aren't just one homogeneous group. We have different police forces that each work slightly differently. Some are more likely to wait, collect evidence then arrest as that is often less likely to further inflame the situation.

The problem with that is the perception is so different to reality that nothing you can do will change their minds. So then what?

Were the BLM protests setting fire to hotels with the expressed aim of killing people in them? Or trying to drag people out of cars whilst shouting slurs and chanting kill them? No? Then we can't compare it.

Vote for parties who have policies to reduce it. Vote for different parties if they don't keep their word when in power (or create one ifnthe alternatives are actively racist). Distance yourself from the racists and don't use terms and phrases that we know are dog whistles to them, actually actively show that you do not welcome them. Totally and utterly reject the various conspiracy theories going around (two tier policing, "great replacement" etc etc). Suggest realistic solutions to the issues that reducing migration would cause. Suggest realitic policy options rather than just "less of them" (e.g. skills based etc). Then maybe we could have an adult conversation about it. I'd still likely disagree with you but at least then we'd be discussing policy options and decisions rather than the absolute mess that conversation is right now.

What sort of divergence does the white working class have? it is the one of the largest demographic groups in the country. They are the norm. Divergent communities are ones which are not part of the societal mainstream. That's why the message is "taking our country back" - they think they own it and have a unique claim to it, unlike other, actually divergent communities.

I've said time and again it is the perception of different treatment and divergence that is the issue here. But if you don't believe me that this is real, and have access to Twitter / X, go to trending and look for #TwoTierKier to see what people's perceptions are for yourselves.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I've said time and again it is the perception of different treatment and divergence that is the issue here. But if you don't believe me that this is real, and have access to Twitter / X, go to trending and look for #TwoTierKier to see what people's perceptions are for yourselves.

And as I said, given that perception is so out of line with reality, what is the solution then?

 

[Bantamzen]

And as I said, given that perception is so out of line with reality, what is the solution then?

That is for the government to sort out. But calling out all violent acts now taking place across the spectrum, be it from far right activists or those reacting to them would be a starter for ten.

 

[AlterEgo]

I've said time and again it is the perception of different treatment and divergence that is the issue here. But if you don't believe me that this is real, and have access to Twitter / X, go to trending and look for #TwoTierKier to see what people's perceptions are for yourselves.

Sorry but I really couldn't care less. I've been on Twitter and seen all the nonsense going on for a whole week now. It is being done by some of the thickest and most easily manipulated people in the country who cannot even spell the prime minister's name correctly, as the hashtag illustrates.

Society cannot and must not change to try and massage the confidence of "white English indigenous" people that the country is uniquely theirs.

This all burns out by next weekend once the EFL season starts and people have something to do, and by then there may be 1000 of the worst and stupidest people on remand.

This is not a serious "protest", it is just recreational rioting and it is not as difficult to stop as some people are making it out to be.

 

[Bantamzen]

Sorry but I really couldn't care less. I've been on Twitter and seen all the nonsense going on for a whole week now. It is being done by some of the thickest and most easily manipulated people in the country who cannot even spell the prime minister's name correctly, as the hashtag illustrates.

Society cannot and must not change to try and massage the confidence of "white English indigenous" people that the country is uniquely theirs.

This all burns out by next weekend once the EFL season starts and people have something to do, and by then there may be 1000 of the worst and stupidest people on remand.

This is not a serious "protest", it is just recreational rioting and it is not as difficult to stop as some people are making it out to be.

Well you should care less, because this has unearthed some seething resentment in various different groups. It's not going to just go away because the footie season kicks off.

Back in 2001 I lived in one of the epicentres of the riot areas, and believe me it was seething for months before finally coming to a head. And when it did it exploded like a war zone. I know a lot of my fellow Bradfordians are incredibly nervous right now, but also grateful because at least one good thing that came out of the 2001 riots was how to understand how these things can escalate, and how acknowledging and tackling the issues before they reach boiling point is invaluable.

 

[nw1]

Are you saying it was OK for the BLM protesters to break the law and commit acts of vandalism because (in your mind) their cause was good?

Did most BLM protestors do this or just a minority?

I don't seem to remember BLM causing anything like as much violent mayhem as the current lot - and indeed seem to remember most of the trouble was caused by white supremacists deliberately mixing with the protests and causing trouble.

You appear to be (rightly) criticising Nigel Farage for deflecting the blame off the rioters, and then doing exactly the same thing yourself that you've just criticised Farage for. He's somewhat trying to deflect the blame onto immigration. You're deflecting the blame on to politicians who call for lower immigration. But you're both trying to deflect the blame. Why not just agree that the rioting and attacks we've seen are utterly awful, despicable, and unacceptable, and the people to blame are the rioters themselves.

The rioters are indeed primarily responsible, and it should certainly be the rioters and those who incited them to riot online who should receive the full force of the law. However in the past 10-15 years we have had an environment in which it has been increasingly seen as "OK" to have strident anti-immigration views.

By the way, in your World, what are those of us who believe that immigration is too high supposed to do? Are we supposed to just shut up about our beliefs and never say anything, just in case some idiots and far-right trouble-makers start mis-using what we say?

What else is the government supposed to do? The Johnson government gave those with such views their beloved Hard Brexit. Cleverly introduced a raft of very tough, IMO, measures last December. And yet still it's not enough, apparently. Still people complain, and complain, and complain. And I don't think people would complain nearly as much if we hadn't had very public figures constantly tell us that it's a major problem when, to my mind, the real problems lie elsewhere.

To be quite honest I don't think the people participating in these riots will be happy until we completely block immigration from third-world and Muslim countries in particular.

 

[najaB]

By the way, in your World, what are those of us who believe that immigration is too high supposed to do? Are we supposed to just shut up about our beliefs and never say anything, just in case some idiots and far-right trouble-makers start mis-using what we say?

I'm not going to speak for @nw1 but in an earlier post I said:

Exactly. If you have a concern about it, go speak with your MP, start a petition, get a protest permit and stage a demonstration. Throwing bricks through windows, setting fire to cars and looting shops will do absolutely nothing to change immigration policy and all that people will see is the needless violence.

I meant it then and I stand by it now. By all means, agitate for change but do so using non-violent means.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2024 ==

If it transpires that these reported events did happen, should perpetrators not be dealt with in a similar manner to those attacking a hotel with immigrants residing there?

Yes.

What, you expected more?

 

[Robin Edwards]

On the subject of the EFL, I see that clubs including Liverpool, Everton and Newcastle have so far said they are considering up to five year bans for any ticket holders that are found to be involved in the recent race terrorism including aiding and abetting via online platforms.

 

[nw1]

I absolutely deplore all violence no matter who is involved in it but it has to be called out for what it is by the PM.

Which he is. The vast, vast majority of the violence is at the behest of the far-right so he is correct to call out the far-right as the people primarily responsible.

His silent approach is helping no one, three weeks in to the job and he already has negative ratings.... Things can only get better!!!

Silent approach?

To my mind, he's being very strong on controlling this and if people aren't satisfied with him at this early stage before he's even done anything particularly bad - then we really are a country of whingers.
I thought British people were supposed to like strong leaders? Starmer is being far stronger than Sunak, Truss, Johnson et al ever were - though to be fair they didn't have to face a situation like this.