Fareham to Waterloo using Portsmouth ticket

[BillyBoy]

I have the return part of a London Terminals to Portsmouth Stations Off-Peak Return. Bought with a Gold Card discount, price £25.50.
It will suit me to start short at Fareham. I'm assuming this is allowed, please correct if otherwise. And get a train starting in a westerly direction to Waterloo going via Winchester and Basingstoke.
However if the Eclipse bus is late and I miss it, the next two services from Fareham to London head off in the opposite direction and I would need to change at Havant to pick up the train from Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo via Guildford.
So my question is, would I need to buy an additional ticket to go in that direction e.g. a single from Fareham to Havant? I notice that an Off-Peak Return to London from Fareham is the same price as one from Portsmouth.

 

[bb21]

You are fine to travel in either direction without buying an additional ticket

Edit: Fine towards Eastleigh from Fareham, a single Fareham - Cosham required to go via Havant.

 

[455driver]

How would a ticket from PMH be valid to FRM (break of journey/start short), double back through Portchester and Cosham to Havant and then onwards to Waterloo?

Genuine question!

 

[RJ]

How would a ticket from PMH be valid to FRM (break of journey/start short), double back through Portchester and Cosham to Havant and then onwards to Waterloo?

Genuine question!

A Portsmouth to London ticket is valid via Fareham, Winchester and Basingstoke by virtue of a permitted route shown in the Routing Guide.

 

[Lrd]

A Portsmouth to London ticket is valid via Fareham, Winchester and Basingstoke by virtue of a permitted route shown in the Routing Guide.

But what about Portsmouth - Fareham (double back through Portchester/Cosham) - Havant - Guildford - Waterloo?

 

[Matt Taylor]

The return portion of a Portsmouth to London ticket is not valid eastbound from Fareham, however a zero fare excess can be issued to excess the return portion to a Fareham to London ticket.

I work these trains days in day out, and in all likelihood most guards wouldn't have an issue but it would always be best to have the correct ticket as RPIs frequent the Havant/Fareham/Portsmouth triangle.

 

[RJ]

But what about Portsmouth - Fareham (double back through Portchester/Cosham) - Havant - Guildford - Waterloo?

I doubt it is but open to be corrected.

 

[455driver]

But what about Portsmouth - Fareham (double back through Portchester/Cosham) - Havant - Guildford - Waterloo?

Which was the question I actually asked! :roll:
At least you read it correctly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A Portsmouth to London ticket is valid via Fareham, Winchester and Basingstoke by virtue of a permitted route shown in the Routing Guide.

The OP wants to start short at FRM (no problem there if going via ESL/BSK) but then wants to go via HAV/GLD so would effectively be doubling back through PTC/CSA to get to HAV on their PMH-WAT ticket.

 

[bb21]

Hmm, you know what. I had a pretty duff moment when I posted this.

I had the Group Stations Rule in my head when I typed the earlier reply. But of course it does not apply when Portsmouth Group is the origin, so the doubleback fails the route. So for travel Fareham - Cosham - Havant and onwards via Guildford, a Fareham - Cosham single would be required.

I am really sorry. I hope I didn't cause you to be charged a Penalty Fare.

 

[455driver]

I doubt it is but open to be corrected.

So it is valid in your earlier post (see above) but not valid in this post! :roll:

 

[bb21]

So it is valid in your earlier post (see above) but not valid in this post! :roll:

No, he was talking about two different route I believe, the earlier one via Eastleigh, the later one via Havant.

 

[455driver]

The return portion of a Portsmouth to London ticket is not valid eastbound from Fareham, however a zero fare excess can be issued to excess the return portion to a Fareham to London ticket.

I work these trains days in day out, and in all likelihood most guards wouldn't have an issue but it would always be best to have the correct ticket as RPIs frequent the Havant/Fareham/Portsmouth triangle.

It sounds like the OP could end up on a Southern service from FRM-HAV, how would they feel about the ticket being used in this way?

 

[BillyBoy]

Thank you very much for all your replies. Fortunately the bus was only slightly late so I made the via Eastleigh/Basingstoke train.
I thought it was an interesting question as it involved starting short, doubling back, group stations, routeing guide, excesses etc. All our favourites!
My own view, had I been late, was that I would have tried asking for a zero-fare excess as Matt suggests because I knew the fare was the same from Fareham as Portsmouth. If that hadn't worked I would have just bought a single to Havant which is £3.15 with my Gold Card.
455driver is correct, the next service to Havant would have been Southern.
Thanks again.

 

[John @ home]

If that hadn't worked I would have just bought a single to Havant which is £3.15 with my Gold Card.

A £2.30 GOLDC Day Single Fareham - Cosham route Southern Only would have been sufficient, provided the Southern train was due to call at Cosham.

 

[455driver]

No, he was talking about two different route I believe, the earlier one via Eastleigh, the later one via Havant.

The OP asked a specific question which wasnt 'which way is the ticket valid'.

Anyway it is all moot now as they have completed their journey without problem.

 

[BillyBoy]

It wasn't completely without problem - there was a speed restriction through Litchfield Tunnel

 

[swt_passenger]

It occurs to me while browsing this topic that the Portsmouth 'Routeing Group' seems to be a bit odd. The basic point of a routing group seems to be to allow increased flexibility of interchange - and as I always understood it, the whole idea of the Portsmouth Group was really to allow for interchange at Fratton (or south thereof) if travelling along the coast, back when the service along the top of the Farlington triangle was pretty intermittent compared to today. Fratton being in the group would avoid being obliged to wait at Hilsea for instance. But with all trains stopping at Fratton is there any legitimate reason to travel further south and return? Likewise, under what circumstances might a realistic journey to or from the Havant direction and to or from Portsmouth involve changing at Fareham and doubling back?

If only on a basic point of symmetry, why ever does Fareham need to be in there, when Havant isn't? Both Havant and Fareham stations are at junctions, so heading east from "Portsmouth" the route splits at a routing point. But heading west you also reach a junction, but in this case it is not a routing point. Illogical or what?

 

[RJ]

The OP asked a specific question which wasnt 'which way is the ticket valid'.

Anyway it is all moot now as they have completed their journey without problem.

Correct and I missed that the first time around. Hence my first post referring to the valid route from Fareham and the second one being in response to the query about doubling back.

 

[paul1609]

It occurs to me while browsing this topic that the Portsmouth 'Routeing Group' seems to be a bit odd. The basic point of a routing group seems to be to allow increased flexibility of interchange - and as I always understood it, the whole idea of the Portsmouth Group was really to allow for interchange at Fratton (or south thereof) if travelling along the coast, back when the service along the top of the Farlington triangle was pretty intermittent compared to today. Fratton being in the group would avoid being obliged to wait at Hilsea for instance. But with all trains stopping at Fratton is there any legitimate reason to travel further south and return? Likewise, under what circumstances might a realistic journey to or from the Havant direction and to or from Portsmouth involve changing at Fareham and doubling back?

If only on a basic point of symmetry, why ever does Fareham need to be in there, when Havant isn't? Both Havant and Fareham stations are at junctions, so heading east from "Portsmouth" the route splits at a routing point. But heading west you also reach a junction, but in this case it is not a routing point. Illogical or what?

I'd guess that its largely historical but not only for the reason you have identified (the north side of the Farlington Triangle).
The original route to Portsmouth was from Waterloo to Gosport via Fareham and then via the ferry.
Hilsea station was until quite recently closed on Sundays.
Interchange at Fratton to continue going along the coast consisted of a climb over the footbridge whereas at Portsmouth and Southsea high level was a cross platform interchange. This was a flow with heavy holiday traffic and luggage.
Until relatively recently not all Fast London services called at Fratton.

There has always been a rivalry between the 2 main companies serving Portsmouth going back to LBSCR and LSWR through the BR years to Southern and SWT that has prevented any modernisation of the system. To this day the terms of Southerns franchise require them to object to SWTs plans to change the route availability of Brighton to Southampton (not London) fares!