Father who bought first-class ticket fined £484 - for getting on the wrong train

[ag51ruk]

It is not appropriate to level a "penalty" in this case, but the maximum charge they can make under certain circumstances is to charge a full Anytime Single fare.

You are entitled to this opinion, but I am entitled to the opinion that it is ridiculous.

This is incorrect. The correct action is to charge the lowest priced fare that would have been valid, which - depending on the train caught - is likely to be the 1st Off Peak Single @ £120 http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=EUS&dest=LIV&grpo=1072&grpd=0435&tkt=FSS

The company is not permitted to "fine" people and is not permitted to charge the Anytime fare if the Off Peak is valid. However not all their Guards act correctly, so I would be very interested to learn what train he caught.

Even Virgin's own policy online says that you should be charged the fare that would have applied if you bought the ticket at the ticket office, which would have been an off-peak. The selling of Anytime tickets only applies if you travel without a ticket at all, so I suspect this passenger has a good chance of getting money back and an apology.

"If you travel with an Advance ticket on the
correct date, but on the wrong train, you will
have to buy a new ticket at the price it would
have cost you from your starting station. You
may be able to get a discount if the Advance
ticket was purchased with a valid Railcard."

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...tB5MQFghNMAI&usg=AOvVaw0FUV86BtYFKI6JA3v6ro5J

 

[MG11]

And, if it was a day trip (it sounds like it), the Guard wasn't doing their job properly either. No surprises here as I have assisted numerous Virgin Trains victims on this route.

If barrier staff accepted the ticket for travel, then I do not believe a Byelaw 18 prosecution could possibly succeed:

I expect Virgin Trains will drop the case.

If they do not, I am happy to provide assistance to the customer.

I'll fight for what's right, whether Virgin like it or not.

What if the barrier staff passed them through, thinking they wanted to enter the compulsory ticket area early to use a cafe in that zone before they caught their booked train? Say they had a ticket for 13:30 but they want to go through the barriers to have some lunch in say Pumpkin at 12:30? It's not unreasonable that the Gateline Assistant could have assumed this and therefore, I don't see how that could be deemed as giving authority to travel unless they specifically asked if they could travel on said earlier train. I don't really know Lime Street but for example, if I was booked on the 13:01 from Derby Advance, I expect I would be allowed through the barriers an hour earlier at Derby, to use the Pumpkin Cafe or First Class Lounge on Platform 4/6.

 

[robbeech]

Is the lounge inside the gateline there? That would give a reasonable explanation as to why the gateline staff allowed access. I can't remember where it is.

 

[Starmill]

What if the barrier staff passed them through, thinking they wanted to enter the compulsory ticket area early to use a cafe in that zone before they caught their booked train? Say they had a ticket for 13:30 but they want to go through the barriers to have some lunch in say Pumpkin at 12:30? It's not unreasonable that the Gateline Assistant could have assumed this and therefore, I don't see how that could be deemed as giving authority to travel unless they specifically asked if they could travel on said earlier train. I don't really know Lime Street but for example, if I was booked on the 13:01 from Derby Advance, I expect I would be allowed through the barriers an hour earlier at Derby, to use the Pumpkin Cafe or First Class Lounge on Platform 4/6.

None of this applies at London Euston. There is nothing inside the gates or manual revenue check (the latter applies to the vast majority of platforms VT use) other than the platform.

 

[MG11]

None of this applies at London Euston. There is nothing inside the gates or manual revenue check (the latter applies to the vast majority of platforms VT use) other than the platform.

They were London bound for that leg of the journey in question here, we are talking about the gateline at Liverpool Lime Street and the facilities in the compulsory ticket area there.

 

[Starmill]

Liverpool Lime Street is a building site at present, the same thing applies there.

 

[185143]

Liverpool Lime Street is a building site at present, the same thing applies there.

Indeed. The ticket checks are conducted at the entrance to platforn 7-which is (especially now) only for access to the pendo and nothing else.

Previously the lounges, cash machines ect. Were between platforms 7/8 (now demolished). Access to platform 7 was via a queue for a ticket check (normally) exactly as it is now

 

[Frontera2]

see my post #14: the ferries and Eurotunnel Shuttles will let you on an earlier service if there is room...

Not strictly true, certainly in the case of the ferries. If you purchase the cheapest ticket and want to travel on a different sailing to the one booked, P&O will levy a £60 charge. http://www.poferries.com/en/terms-and-conditions - Section 4.

There are a number of reviews on TripAdvisor from passengers complaining about the charge.

To be honest, I don't see what Virgin have done wrong here. If you want to travel on the very cheapest tickets then you have to accept the terms and conditions that go with them. It's like flying Ryanair then complaining about not getting all the frills?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Liverpool Lime Street is a building site at present, the same thing applies there.

Even when it wasn't there are no facilities past the barrier.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I’m struggling to see how Virgin has gone wrong as well. They’ve complied with the system and a penalty fare (in this case the price of the equivalent anytime single) was issued. I think Virgin is also right to use the excuse of the ticket held being an advance ticket, after all, that’s why their original ticket was so cheap right? I hope Virgin don’t give in to this one, it’s not really their battle and it would just encourage others to try their luck.

On a separate note, I do think £200+ For a first class ticket for just over 2 hours is a little exessive.. you’d expect to have your feet massaged or something for that!

 

[Merseysider]

a penalty fare (in this case the price of the equivalent anytime single) was issued.

Not quite; onboard staff tried to sell them a new ticket, for which they didn’t have the funds available, so a UFN was issued at Euston.

A UFN is an Unpaid Fare Notice which allows payment to be made after travel.

A Penalty Fare is something else entirely.

The Standard really doesn’t help matters by using the wrong words

On a separate note, I do think £200+ For a first class ticket for just over 2 hours is a little exessive.. you’d expect to have your feet massaged or something for that!

Agreed!

 

[ag51ruk]

I’m struggling to see how Virgin has gone wrong as well. They’ve complied with the system and a penalty fare (in this case the price of the equivalent anytime single) was issued. I think Virgin is also right to use the excuse of the ticket held being an advance ticket, after all, that’s why their original ticket was so cheap right? I hope Virgin don’t give in to this one, it’s not really their battle and it would just encourage others to try their luck.

On a separate note, I do think £200+ For a first class ticket for just over 2 hours is a little exessive.. you’d expect to have your feet massaged or something for that!

But Virgins published policy in these circumstances (as I posted above) is to sell a new ticket at the price that would have applied at the ticket office for that train - which for an afternoon train from Liverpool, is an off peak First single at £120 rather than an Anytime ticket

 

[theblackwatch]

Not quite; onboard staff tried to sell them a new ticket, for which they didn’t have the funds available, so a UFN was issued at Euston.

Maybe I've missed something, but I'm not sure where it's been said that the lawyer didn't have the funds available? It could be the case that he refused to pay up and failed the 'attitude test'. Given that he claims to have been issued with 'penalty notices' and refers to a 'fine' (his words, not those of The Standard, unless he is quoted incorrectly), I wonder if anything else he is attributed as saying is incorrect?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the article clearly stated he refused.

VT aren't prosecution-happy, but if they were he could have put his son in a very awkward position (as each has committed their own offence regardless of who had agreed to pay the fare). A RoRA on your record (which with outright refusal to pay would have guaranteed success) as you become an adult is not going to be advantageous.

 

[Mojo]

If you buy a cheap plane ticket, and arrive at the airport early, do you expect to be allowed on an earlier flight?

Comparisons with the aviation industry aren't always useful as the two industries operate in very different climates and have different characteristics about how they operate; however to answer your (rhetorical?) question; yes, I would expect to be allowed onto an earlier flight (within reason), as most airlines will do this as a goodwill gesture.

Many airlines will allow you onto an earlier flight free of charge, or for a nominal fee, if there is the capacity. Easyjet, for example, will do a transfer if you are at the airport 3 hours - 1 hour before the new flight leaves and there is space. You can also move to an earlier return flight the same day by booking this via their App for a fee of £22 per customer.

What if the barrier staff passed them through, thinking they wanted to enter the compulsory ticket area early to use a cafe in that zone before they caught their booked train?

No part of Liverpool Lime St station is defined as a compulsory ticket area.

 

[AlterEgo]

One of the reasons I hate Advance Purchase is the bloody name Advance Purchase. They really should be booked train only discount ticket..

The name is simply “Advance”.

I agree that the ticket ought to be made clearer in name. Fixed, or booked train only ticket might be a better name.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you buy a cheap plane ticket, and arrive at the airport early, do you expect to be allowed on an earlier flight?

No but it’s been proactively offered to me a fair few times. I usually decline the offer as I won’t be able to secure a window seat, or it’s on an aircraft I don’t like/“need”.

 

[Mag_seven]

I’m struggling to see how Virgin has gone wrong as well. They’ve complied with the system and a penalty fare (in this case the price of the equivalent anytime single) was issued. I think Virgin is also right to use the excuse of the ticket held being an advance ticket, after all, that’s why their original ticket was so cheap right? I hope Virgin don’t give in to this one, it’s not really their battle and it would just encourage others to try their luck.

But the gentleman in question had his ticket inspected at the gateline (presumably by Virgin staff) and was allowed on.

 

[Puffing Devil]

They managed to board the train following a cursory ticket inspection, knowing that they were booked for a later service. No mention of them actively seeking permission to join the earlier train. I'd say that this falls short of:

Where you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised
member of staff or notice of the Train Company whose service you intend to
board (NRCoC)​

The Virgin staff seek the full fare for the journey. This is per the NRCoC:

To charge you the full undiscounted anytime single fare to a station directly served
by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms,
or for a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train that you are on;​

There's no mention of an off-peak single.

The ability to upgrade a discounted ticket appears only to be available to holders of ‘off-peak’ or ‘super off-peak’ tickets, not advances:

If you have an ‘off-peak’ or ‘super off-peak’ Ticket, correctly dated but invalid for the
service on which you are travelling; you are using a route for which your Ticket is not
valid; or you break your journey when you are not permitted to do so, you will be
charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket
that is valid for the train you are using.​

The way I read the situation is that the father and son managed to board an earlier service without a detailed ticket check, knowing that their tickets were not valid for that service and hoped to pay the difference if challenged. It looks like that plan didn't work out and the father has used his status and connections to launch a public campaign in the hope that the matter is dropped. I hope that this bullying behaviour is challenged by Virgin.

Personal View: I do think the penalty is very high and that there should be some "middle ground" when dealing with advances when passengers arrive earlier for their trains and there is space available. Now that Virgin are allowing advances to be bought an hour before departure, an upgrade to the new fare + fee would appear sensible.

 

[snail]

If it was indeed 45 minutes into the journey, why not just pay the fare to Stafford (2x £35.10) and reboard the right train there

...then be accused of starting short and charged the full single fare for the journey!

 

[XCTurbostar]

But the gentleman in question had his ticket inspected at the gateline (presumably by Virgin staff) and was allowed on.

You've jumped the gun a bit on that one. At no point in the article is the gate line or ticket barriers mentioned there may have been no ticket barrier staff on board. What is deemed an 'inspector' in the second paragraph could also been viewed as a first class host which often stand outside of the train prior to departure.

 

[shredder1]

I think they could offer it commercially - £20 to get a train up to one hour earlier provided you change it before boarding. Could perhaps be offered only on the mobile app to push adoption?

Yes agreed, or just charge them the diference from an advanced,

 

[swt_passenger]

As soon as you allow the 'difference from an advanced' to be charged, no-one ever needs to buy a normal ticket until checked...

 

[Darandio]

Yes agreed, or just charge them the diference from an advanced,

Surely you can see how that just doesn't work?

 

[185]

My only contribution to this, is the clarity of the printed restriction. It is extremely clearly written BOOKED TRAIN ONLY and they've got him bang to rights.

Wish they would bring the large, airline tickets back. Clearer text & better layout, all one one ticket makes it so much easier to justify excessing, new tickets or TIRs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I actually think it might be worth switching to tickets being laser printed on A4, allowing *far* more information to be included. If barriers switched to barcodes it would be much easier to do that.

Notably DB ticket offices now print theirs on A4 from a laser printer, though the bottom bit is a template of a "CIV 70" style ticket.

 

[yorkie]

What if the barrier staff passed them through, thinking they wanted to enter the compulsory ticket area early to use a cafe in that zone before they caught their booked train?

Liverpool Lime Street does not have a CTA and the cafes etc are on the 'unpaid' side of any barrier lines.

When ticket checks are in place for Virgin services, the staff know exactly which train people are catching.

 

[itfcfan]

If you buy a cheap plane ticket, and arrive at the airport early, do you expect to be allowed on an earlier flight?

In some markets (I'm thinking mainly of domestic flights in the US) this is absolutely permitted/encouraged (based on availability) so more passengers can be accommodated on later flights and revenue maximised.

I think there should be scope for a "time window" ticket in the UK. Given one of the main benefits of taking the train in this country is the turn-up-and-go frequency on many lines it's frustrating the single-train advance tickets are often the only viable option to avoid travelling becoming too expensive. Tickets allowing travel between 11:00-13:00 on Saturday (for example) would be very customer friendly while still permitting quota controls across the trains in this period.

Alternatively, making it easier/simpler to change reservations for advance tickets (i.e. change from the 12:00 service to the 11:00 service, when you realise at 10:30 that you're going to be ready to travel earlier than expected), while paying the difference between the price of each service would also be beneficial for the customer with few negatives for the TOCs. This would also benefit off-peak/anytime ticket holders because there'd be fewer redundant reservations (i.e. reservations held by people not actually travelling on that service) making it easier to find any empty seat.

 

[Starmill]

Surely you can see how that just doesn't work?

Difference plus £20 admin fee is likely to work.

 

[PeterC]

In some markets (I'm thinking mainly of domestic flights in the US) this is absolutely permitted/encouraged (based on availability) so more passengers can be accommodated on later flights and revenue maximised.

I think there should be scope for a "time window" ticket in the UK. Given one of the main benefits of taking the train in this country is the turn-up-and-go frequency on many lines it's frustrating the single-train advance tickets are often the only viable option to avoid travelling becoming too expensive. Tickets allowing travel between 11:00-13:00 on Saturday (for example) would be very customer friendly while still permitting quota controls across the trains in this period.

Alternatively, making it easier/simpler to change reservations for advance tickets (i.e. change from the 12:00 service to the 11:00 service, when you realise at 10:30 that you're going to be ready to travel earlier than expected), while paying the difference between the price of each service would also be beneficial for the customer with few negatives for the TOCs. This would also benefit off-peak/anytime ticket holders because there'd be fewer redundant reservations (i.e. reservations held by people not actually travelling on that service) making it easier to find any empty seat.

I agree about time windows. My daughter travelled from Leeds last week and due to a delay there were people boarding who thought that they were on the next service and getting upset about other people in what they thought were their reserved seats. On any route with more than 1tph the whole idea of booking passengers onto specific trains starts to fall down.

With regard to rebooking, I don't see why this should be an issue with real time reservations BUT only if it is done through a ticket office so that the later reservation can be released.