• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

FGW delay: "Never apologise, never explain"

Status
Not open for further replies.

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
Explanations for service disruption are kept as short and simple as is reasonably possible as people will otherwise tend not to understand it. People do not take well to jargon and over-complicated announcements, and indeed they will often complain about such things confusing them. If a train has failed, it has failed. That is all that passengers need to know, they don't need to be informed that 43125 on the trailing end of 1C24 has suffered a seized axle and the traincrew are currently carrying out a rotational test.... Would 1,500 p*ssed off commuters at Paddington really appreciate that?!
I'd say the best way to deal with such announcements is to use simple language and describe it as you would for a car. That's something that most people can relate to, so they'll understand it.

So don't say "a unit has failed", say "a train has broken down". Don't say "we're waiting for a fitter to attend the scene", say "we're waiting for a mechanic to arrive". And in the example you gave above "a problem with one of the axles" would probably suffice.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Vehicle excise duty and mineral oil duty are not hypothecated.
Quite. And these days VED is nothing more than a simple CO2-emissions tax...
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
I'd say the best way to deal with such announcements is to use simple language and describe it as you would for a car. That's something that most people can relate to, so they'll understand it.

So don't say "a unit has failed", say "a train has broken down". Don't say "we're waiting for a fitter to attend the scene", say "we're waiting for a mechanic to arrive". And in the example you gave above "a problem with one of the axles" would probably suffice.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Quite. And these days VED is nothing more than a simple CO2-emissions tax...

"A problem with one of the axles" is still enormously more complicated than it needs to be! Even if a majority of people might appreciate what an axle is, what if the component concerned is less universally understood? Should each TOC really spend a fortune on pre-recording announcements covering each and every part of the train, just in case it fails one day?! There is simply no need include that level of detail in a general announcement, it serves no purpose.

"...the train has been delayed due to hitting an animal on the line. It was a sheep, ladies & gentlemen, a medium sized one with a black marking on it's face. The Guard has confirmed that it was in three pieces when it bounced out from under the back cab. We're currently awaiting a confirmation of what it was called from the farmer, but the Driver says it looks like a Gerald. Sorry for the disruption."

Keeping it simple just works better!
 

jnjkerbin

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2012
Messages
842
Location
Down south
Keeping it simple just works better!

Although I agree with this, I think that over-simplification is not good. By this I mean "lineside fire" is better than "lineside problem" or, even worse "operating incident".

Phrases like "operating incident" etc. are not popular, (I think) because passengers just don't understand why they're being delayed. At least some passengers will be more understanding if they are told some of the outlines of why they're being delayed.

I don't mean that guards should start with announcements like "I've just been told by the driver that the Track Circuit in the rear of AD118 signal is showing an occupied indication so trains are passing AD 116 at danger and checking the line at a speed no greater than 15mph. This is causing some congestion and we should be moving within the next 15 minutes."

What might be better in this case is something like "We are being delayed here due to a signalling problem causing trains ahead to run at a reduced speed. We should be moving sometime within the next 15 minutes."

And then all the corporate blather about not smoking and telling police officers if you see people acting suspiciously etc. :)
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,058
Location
UK
Maybe some staff can't think of how to put over a technical explanation in layman's terms - but they should try to say something in my opinion.

Some drivers on FCC will even 'apologise' for the delay at, say, Potters Bar where the train is held so it can go out onto the up fast - and make more progress than staying in the slow behind a Moorgate stopper.

S/he will explain that the train is waiting for a fast train to pass to move out onto the fast line. Likewise, many don't say anything and you can see people getting agitated or moaning about why the train isn't moving, will now be late etc.

Sure, there's no need for a driver to say anything in what is just a standard operational situation - with no actual delay and probably factored into the WTT - but it certainly makes a difference.

Yes, some people will then moan about 'unnecessary' announcements but some people will moan about everything. Far better to give too much rather than too little information in my view.
 

tsr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
7,400
Location
Between the parallel lines
Although I agree with this, I think that over-simplification is not good. By this I mean "lineside fire" is better than "lineside problem" or, even worse "operating incident".

Phrases like "operating incident" etc. are not popular, (I think) because passengers just don't understand why they're being delayed. At least some passengers will be more understanding if they are told some of the outlines of why they're being delayed.

I don't mean that guards should start with announcements like "I've just been told by the driver that the Track Circuit in the rear of AD118 signal is showing an occupied indication so trains are passing AD 116 at danger and checking the line at a speed no greater than 15mph. This is causing some congestion and we should be moving within the next 15 minutes."

What might be better in this case is something like "We are being delayed here due to a signalling problem causing trains ahead to run at a reduced speed. We should be moving sometime within the next 15 minutes."

And then all the corporate blather about not smoking and telling police officers if you see people acting suspiciously etc. :)

Yes - this is my point entirely. Even better would be "Sorry for the congestion. Drivers ahead are having to do extra safety checks and drive slowly due to a problem with a signal." But you I think have a good idea of what is a reasonable level of information. I would question any research which says that passengers don't want to know this much about what's going on - NRE are actually starting to display this level of information on their website, as are TOC/NR/NRE and various travel news Twitter accounts. This sort of thing is coming, but it really needs to be provided consistently, and onboard over PAs and face-to-face as well.

For example, NRE have proactively and prominently said that the congestion at Wandsworth Common this morning is due to a passenger alarm being activated earlier. This is commendable because it is simple enough for passengers to understand, and reassures them that the problem has been found and dealt with. If it was "a problem under investigation", passengers would either be worried that there was going to be a serious delay, or else they would think they are just being told any old story.

Naturally, there are times when a problem will be unidentifiable or where the circumstances need a lot of investigation - maybe confidentially. But I do wonder what proportion of delays this explanation would apply to.

To take another mini case study, my second example relates to the fires started last week on the ECML (mentioned in another thread) caused by a steam loco. Now, this EC train was caught up in the congestion, and I happen to know that the announcement on board about the delay between Northallerton and Darlington said that there was "a fire" up ahead. I understand at least some passengers became quite curious and wondered what sort of fire could be causing the delay, and also felt it would be prudent to be able to explain their late arrivals. No extra information was given by Durham (not sure what happened after that). Some of those I spoke to who were on the train, who in this case were not enthusiasts or staff, were actually really interested to know that a steam loco had caused fires up ahead, and as a result are now rather more accepting of the given cause of the delay. There's no need to give the loco number, the locations of the fires in miles and chains, a description of what the fire brigade did, or any of that - just any credible information which is easy to understand, honest and concise.
 

NSEFAN

Established Member
Joined
17 Jun 2007
Messages
3,504
Location
Southampton
jonmorris0844 said:
Yes, some people will then moan about 'unnecessary' announcements but some people will moan about everything. Far better to give too much rather than too little information in my view.
Too many generic announcements are actually harmful, as passengers switch off and stop paying attention. Then, when there's actually something important being said, the pax are more likely to miss out on it.

Far better in my view to have only essential information audibly announced, which is realistically only two things: booked stops and during delays. All that bumf about penalty fares etc can go on the scrolling information screens or posters for people to read at their own leisure.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,927
Location
Nottingham
This is one case where the railway could do with copying the airlines - though I do realise that an airline captain has easy access to a lot more information than a member of train staff.

On a flight some time ago, they announced before take-off there would be a delay due to one of the flight deck radios not working and there was a technician on the way with a replacement. There may even have been some mention of international safety regulations requiring all radios to be working before takeoff. They expected the delay to be about an hour. Sure enough about 20min later a bloke in overalls turned up with a box of electronics and the total delay turned out to be somewhat less than an hour.

This shows passengers that the company is on top of the problem, it's the sort of problem passengers can relate to (we all know electronics goes on the blink and we wouldn't want to fly without a working radio) and that the amount of delay is known. It's always better to slightly exaggerate the likely delay both to provide a margin for unforeseen circumstances and because people feel happier when it turns out to be not quite as bad as they feared.

All the above still applies even if the radio fault was caused by the company cancelling the maintenance contract to save money...

If this had been explaned as a non-specific technical fault then everybody would have been worrying not only about the length of delay but also what was at fault and whether things were truly going to be safe when the flight took off.

A good explanation is a way of letting people know the problem was caused by someone else (especially if it's someone outside the railway - see post above re passenger alarm) without sounding as if you are just ascribing blame! However it needs to stick to uncontroversial facts - I think in the post above saying that the fire was caused by a steam engine would at the time have been conjecture and could turn out to be slanderous. It would be quite adequate just to say that there was a fire at the side of the track further down the line, and perhaps to add that no injuries have been reported.

It can also help with answering "why can't they" questions similar to those asked on this forum. For example the FGW crew could have said "As transferring passengers to another train generally takes at least an hour [or whatever] with a risk of injury to passengers, our company control has advised us that everyone should remain on board until we can get the train moving. Assistance is currently expected to arrive in... [whenever time]"

As I hinted at the top, and I'll repeat here, it isn't always easy to do this when there is insufficient information available. The whole industry needs to make it a priority to ensure that those in the front line have the information they need.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,058
Location
UK
Too many generic announcements are actually harmful, as passengers switch off and stop paying attention. Then, when there's actually something important being said, the pax are more likely to miss out on it.

Far better in my view to have only essential information audibly announced, which is realistically only two things: booked stops and during delays. All that bumf about penalty fares etc can go on the scrolling information screens or posters for people to read at their own leisure.

In normal running many announcements are indeed pointless (if not of any benefit to those that need them, such as the blind, such as ones to say smoking isn't allowed, keep bags with you etc).

However, during disruption I really don't see that the argument is valid anymore. People can by all means switch off, but not everyone will and will gladly appreciate information and updates.

As said above, being told of residual delays is also beneficial - as it tells me that I might have to wait, but the problem is over. Once I get on a train (or we get moving if already on it), chances are I'll suffer no more delays.

If there's an ongoing incident and nobody can tell me what's happening, I have no idea if I'm on there for 30 minutes more, an hour, two hours...

This is one case where the railway could do with copying the airlines - though I do realise that an airline captain has easy access to a lot more information than a member of train staff.

On a flight some time ago, they announced before take-off there would be a delay due to one of the flight deck radios not working and there was a technician on the way with a replacement. There may even have been some mention of international safety regulations requiring all radios to be working before takeoff. They expected the delay to be about an hour. Sure enough about 20min later a bloke in overalls turned up with a box of electronics and the total delay turned out to be somewhat less than an hour.

This shows passengers that the company is on top of the problem, it's the sort of problem passengers can relate to (we all know electronics goes on the blink and we wouldn't want to fly without a working radio) and that the amount of delay is known. It's always better to slightly exaggerate the likely delay both to provide a margin for unforeseen circumstances and because people feel happier when it turns out to be not quite as bad as they feared.

All the above still applies even if the radio fault was caused by the company cancelling the maintenance contract to save money...

If this had been explaned as a non-specific technical fault then everybody would have been worrying not only about the length of delay but also what was at fault and whether things were truly going to be safe when the flight took off.

A good explanation is a way of letting people know the problem was caused by someone else (especially if it's someone outside the railway - see post above re passenger alarm) without sounding as if you are just ascribing blame! However it needs to stick to uncontroversial facts - I think in the post above saying that the fire was caused by a steam engine would at the time have been conjecture and could turn out to be slanderous. It would be quite adequate just to say that there was a fire at the side of the track further down the line, and perhaps to add that no injuries have been reported.

It can also help with answering "why can't they" questions similar to those asked on this forum. For example the FGW crew could have said "As transferring passengers to another train generally takes at least an hour [or whatever] with a risk of injury to passengers, our company control has advised us that everyone should remain on board until we can get the train moving. Assistance is currently expected to arrive in... [whenever time]"

As I hinted at the top, and I'll repeat here, it isn't always easy to do this when there is insufficient information available. The whole industry needs to make it a priority to ensure that those in the front line have the information they need.

Sorry for the overuse of quoting, but I agree with all of the above.

Some people are more confident at relaying information than others. Some drivers don't announce the next stops on trains without CIS. Some even skip the obligatory safety announcement at the start of the journey. Some will go above and beyond their remit to convey information, some will give minimal information or not get drawn on anything - or even hide.

That's the same for any industry I am sure, and is probably more of an issue with drivers than TMs, who are presumably trained to speak to the great unwashed on a regular basis.

I am sure every TOC would prefer for staff to give information, even where exact details are unknown just to reassure people that a problem is in hand or being investigated. Even if the announcement might be seen as stating the bloody obvious, when a train isn't moving and people have already worked out something is up!

It's amazing how powerful a simple apology is and stating that you're on the case, even if at that point there's a lack of information forthcoming. Basic customer service, and something that a lot of people ARE already doing every single day. It's just the luck of the draw who is going to be working the service you're on, which shouldn't be the case.
 
Last edited:

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
"A problem with one of the axles" is still enormously more complicated than it needs to be! Even if a majority of people might appreciate what an axle is, what if the component concerned is less universally understood?
Yes, most people will know what an axle is. For more 'complicated' components there will always be a simple (usually car-related) explanation.

Should each TOC really spend a fortune on pre-recording announcements covering each and every part of the train, just in case it fails one day?!
Who suggested recording announcements?

"...the train has been delayed due to hitting an animal on the line. It was a sheep, ladies & gentlemen, a medium sized one with a black marking on it's face. The Guard has confirmed that it was in three pieces when it bounced out from under the back cab. We're currently awaiting a confirmation of what it was called from the farmer, but the Driver says it looks like a Gerald. Sorry for the disruption."
Ah, it was all just leading up to a straw man.
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,810
'It's all gone pear shaped, God knows how long we'll be here"
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,058
Location
UK
'It's all gone pear shaped, God knows how long we'll be here"

That would do me!! Acceptable alternatives would be, 'I don't know what's up, but it looks serious so as there's nothing I can do but wait, I'll be at the back reading my paper if anyone needs me. I suggest you read your paper or give that extra hard level on Angry Birds another go or two'. :D

I'd rather know that our situation isn't looking good than thinking we're merely being held a red signal for a time that is gradually becoming too long to be the case - wondering if every little noise is the sound of us about to start moving.
 

jb

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2011
Messages
369
This thread is largely ridiculous. Few things do my head in quite like memes that people recite parrot-fashion, and "all we want is information" falls squarely into that category. It's almost completely false. What passengers want, and all they want, is for the bloody train to move.

By all means, operators should do their best to keep passengers informed, but do not kid yourself that this makes any material difference to the passenger experience. It doesn't.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,058
Location
UK
This thread is largely ridiculous. Few things do my head in quite like memes that people recite parrot-fashion, and "all we want is information" falls squarely into that category. It's almost completely false. What passengers want, and all they want, is for the bloody train to move.

By all means, operators should do their best to keep passengers informed, but do not kid yourself that this makes any material difference to the passenger experience. It doesn't.

That doesn't make sense to me. You can't just magically make a train move, or prevent a train ever being delayed. That could not and will not EVER happen.

So when you are delayed, you give information and reassurance to people - even if you can't give information that people will 'like' (and those people who moan will have to accept it).

It's quite clear that everyone wants to get a train moving as quickly as possible, but there's no magic wand or pixie dust that you can sprinkle over the train to get it going again.
 

jb

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2011
Messages
369
Imagine a scale of passenger satisfaction from 1 to 10.

Premises:
Train runs on time with no problems = 10
Train is severely delayed and information is poor = 1

The question is "where on the scale is 'severely delayed but kept informed'?"

I think those who say "all we want is info" would say 5 or maybe 6, and actually believe so themselves.

I think the reality to be 2 or perhaps 3.
 

Harpers Tate

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2013
Messages
1,708
But, surely, even 2 or 3 is better than 1, no?

I think the frustration is that whenever anything does go wrong, the Railway appears (and I say appears intentionally) to react with all the urgency of a snail that has already had its lunch.

I do have a suspicion that the safe disposal (by whatever means necessary and available) of those onboard is not afforded the priority it arguably should have.
 

quarella

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2009
Messages
815
How many passengers now claim that there are no announcements when delayed when in fact they cannot hear them through the volume of their ipod.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,058
Location
UK
Imagine a scale of passenger satisfaction from 1 to 10.

Premises:
Train runs on time with no problems = 10
Train is severely delayed and information is poor = 1

The question is "where on the scale is 'severely delayed but kept informed'?"

I think those who say "all we want is info" would say 5 or maybe 6, and actually believe so themselves.

I think the reality to be 2 or perhaps 3.

The railway will NEVER be able to keep all trains moving without delays and serious incidents (like people jumping under a train) so to even hope that one day we might achieve this is incredibly naive. It won't happen, ever.

On this rather odd scale of yours, with 10 being that all trains run on time with no problems, I'd say that being delayed but kept informed would probably be 9.9.

Most people can accept when the s**t hits the fan and everything goes tits up. They just don't want to be left totally in the dark.

And, for the most part, they aren't. However, there are clearly exceptions.
 

maniacmartin

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
15 May 2012
Messages
5,395
Location
Croydon
Most people can accept when the s**t hits the fan and everything goes tits up. They just don't want to be left totally in the dark.

I agree. There's nothing worse than not knowing how long you will be delayed or what the cause of the delay is.

For one thing, if I know the rough estimate of how long a resolution will be (e.g. how long ti'll take for a fitter to arrive and the average amount of time it takes to fix whatever problem has occured) then I can plan the rest of my day. If the train is stuck in a station I can decide whether it's worth taking an alternative route or getting a taxi etc.
 

Squaddie

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2009
Messages
1,073
Location
London
On this rather odd scale of yours, with 10 being that all trains run on time with no problems, I'd say that being delayed but kept informed would probably be 9.9.
I don't think there are many people who would agree with you on that. I would go with jb's estimate that a serious delay would rate a 2 or 3 on the satisfaction scale, even if passengers were updated regularly.

(Without updates, I'd give it a 1).
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,058
Location
UK
I wasn't being entirely serious, but only because the concept of the 1-10 grading was so flawed to begin with.

Of course people would always put having no delay above being given information during a delay.
 

Temple Meads

Established Member
Joined
2 Sep 2010
Messages
2,231
Location
Devon
There's nothing worse than not knowing how long you will be delayed

I agree, but in this thread it is mentioned various times that the staff themselves don't always know how long a delay will be, in some cases giving an estimate would probably be pure guesswork, albeit educated guesswork based on prior experiences.
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,810
How many passengers now claim that there are no announcements when delayed when in fact they cannot hear them through the volume of their ipod.

Quite a few, you may be surprised to hear...
 

Captain Chaos

Member
Joined
31 Jan 2011
Messages
835
Quite a few, you may be surprised to hear...

Indeed. It's a real bug bear of mine. I play music when on the train too with headphones on. I still make an effort to hear the announcements though.

I always find it best to be honest with people about what's happened, tell them the cause in as clear to understand terms as possible, what we are doing etc. If it means taking time to write it down to make it more clear and results in fewer announcements than perhaps people would like then that's just unfortunate. I'd rather make it clear than have people go 'Eh?'

When it comes to length of the delay I was told that if you haven't been given a firm estimate then use your experience. Take the time it usually takes and then add either half or double on. That way if it's worse than normal you're still within what you said and if it's fairly standard you get away a fair bit earlier than promised and makes everyone feel (I hope) that we have made the best of a bad situation and done a good job getting it resolved quickly. It's not fool-proof by any means. But it works for me most of the time.

The trouble is there is no perfect solution and it does tend to be a case of just do the best you can with what you have. Information isn't always forthcoming for various reasons. Trouble is you can't please everyone. So there's no point trying to do so really.
 

jb

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2011
Messages
369
The railway will NEVER be able to keep all trains moving without delays and serious incidents (like people jumping under a train) so to even hope that one day we might achieve this is incredibly naive. It won't happen, ever.

On this rather odd scale of yours, with 10 being that all trains run on time with no problems, I'd say that being delayed but kept informed would probably be 9.9.

I was attempting (and failing, it seems) to communicate a scale of satisfaction about a single incident, so 10 is that my train runs on time without incident and 1 is where my train leaves me stranded without information.

As a long-term average, 9.9 might be about right for the realistic passenger. When I commuted I would reckon on a "1" event perhaps once a year (maybe one in 500 journeys). Throw in all the smaller problems across the year and I wouldn't be surprised if you ended up with 9.9.

The issue relates to how information about being delayed compares to being delayed itself (in a single incident)... and I absolutely maintain that information is generally over-rated in perception, compared to not being delayed. I believe it is slightly over-rated by the regular passenger and massively over-rated by the less experienced one.
 

D1009

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2012
Messages
3,166
Location
Stoke Gifford
Some drivers on FCC will even 'apologise' for the delay at, say, Potters Bar where the train is held so it can go out onto the up fast - and make more progress than staying in the slow behind a Moorgate stopper.

S/he will explain that the train is waiting for a fast train to pass to move out onto the fast line. Likewise, many don't say anything and you can see people getting agitated or moaning about why the train isn't moving, will now be late etc.

Sure, there's no need for a driver to say anything in what is just a standard operational situation - with no actual delay and probably factored into the WTT - but it certainly makes a difference.

Yes, some people will then moan about 'unnecessary' announcements but some people will moan about everything. Far better to give too much rather than too little information in my view.
I've noticed a recent increase in the number of announcements by LU drivers to the extent that seemingly every signal delay of more than 30 seconds requires an explanation/apology. I've noticed this particularly on the H&C/Circle at Edgware Road and Baker Street. Is this being copied by some TOC staff?
 

Mike395

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
2,910
Location
Bedford
I believe (though am not 100% sure) that LU drivers must make an announcement within 20 seconds of an unscheduled stop :)
 

SimonS

Member
Joined
10 Jun 2012
Messages
30
The railway will NEVER be able to keep all trains moving without delays and serious incidents (like people jumping under a train) so to even hope that one day we might achieve this is incredibly naive. It won't happen, ever.

On this rather odd scale of yours, with 10 being that all trains run on time with no problems, I'd say that being delayed but kept informed would probably be 9.9.

Most people can accept when the s**t hits the fan and everything goes tits up. They just don't want to be left totally in the dark.

And, for the most part, they aren't. However, there are clearly exceptions.

Obviously all wishful thinking as 9.9 = 99% and I have never known a UK rail franchise deliver that.

Also the Passenger First surveys do specifically ask about how well the companies dealt with delays, the autumn 2012 survey had 44% satisfied or 4.4 out of 10.
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
Obviously all wishful thinking as 9.9 = 99% and I have never known a UK rail franchise deliver that.

jb wasn't trying to say 9.9 out of 10 all the time.
He was trying to say from one persons perspective. Obviously, one individual person is not going to be affected by all of the incidents on a route. So their "personal" rating should be higher than the actual overall figures for that TOC (unless they are VERY unlucky).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top