FGW Franchise Extension

[SkinnyDave]

Tick tock tick tock

Cutting it a bit fine now with around a month to go..

Any news from anyone on here?

 

[route:oxford]

Tick tock tick tock

Cutting it a bit fine now with around a month to go..

Any news from anyone on here?

Anything can be done at a moments notice if you really have to.

DoR will be on standby if necessary.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Tick tock tick tock
Cutting it a bit fine now with around a month to go..
Any news from anyone on here?

Not to mention the VT extension too, details still not agreed.
Though there is a holding position for that (management fee etc), unlike FGW.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

how would this work with the trains that fgw own if the dor took over would they lease the trains off first?

 

[GatwickDepress]

how would this work with the trains that fgw own if the dor took over would they lease the trains off first?

To my knowledge First Great Western lease their trains off a Rolling Stock Company (ROSCO). At the end of a franchise, the stock is handed back to the ROSCO and leased on to the new franchisee. I think the company that owns FGW's trains is Angel Trains?

I don't think I'm right, so I'll wait for someone who knows more than I to step in!

 

[Rich McLean]

To my knowledge First Great Western lease their trains off a Rolling Stock Company (ROSCO). At the end of a franchise, the stock is handed back to the ROSCO and leased on to the new franchisee. I think the company that owns FGW's trains is Angel Trains?

I don't think I'm right, so I'll wait for someone who knows more than I to step in!

First Group own 5 HSTs out right. The others are all leased. So in effect, First could take those HSTs with them

 

[Eagle]

So in effect, First could take those HSTs with them

Although it's highly likely that they won't; it'd be much more financially beneficial for them to lease them to the new TOC rather than just have them sitting in a siding doing nothing.

(Or they could lease them to someone else, such as XC.)

 

[455driver]

Although it's highly likely that they won't; it'd be much more financially beneficial for them to lease them to the new TOC rather than just have them sitting in a siding doing nothing.

(Or they could lease them to someone else, such as XC.)

Or they could move them to Scotrail, TPE or Hull trains and use the displaced stock to strengthen other services.
Either way the incoming franchisee will be in the sh um up to their eyeballs in it because they will not have enough sets for service never mind maintenance.

 

[edwin_m]

First won't be able make any money anywhere else with the trains. To run more services on their other TOCs they would need track access etc which they woudn't get in a hurry, as well as crew training if the TOC didn't run HSTs already. Likewise with lengthening services. Keeping them in service but demanding an exorbitant rental is likely to fall foul either of existing contracts (the trains are probably owned by a different subsidiary of First) or of the ORR/Competition Commission.

Cutting off your nose to spite your face, and p*ss*ng off your biggest customer (DfT) and thousands of passengers in the process, probably isn't the best ever commercial strategy.

 

[swt_passenger]

First won't be able make any money anywhere else with the trains. To run more services on their other TOCs they would need track access etc which they woudn't get in a hurry, as well as crew training if the TOC didn't run HSTs already. Likewise with lengthening services. Keeping them in service but demanding an exorbitant rental is likely to fall foul either of existing contracts (the trains are probably owned by a different subsidiary of First) or of the ORR/Competition Commission.

Cutting off your nose to spite your face, and p*ss*ng off your biggest customer (DfT) and thousands of passengers in the process, probably isn't the best ever commercial strategy.

I agree that passing them on to a successor as a 'side deal' has always been the likeliest scenario. Despite the number of people who post theories that have more in common with the schoolboy's favourite, "it's my ball and I'm going home"...

 

[Rapidash]

From a quick gander around the web, looks like there were rumblings from the RMT about the talks for the franchise extension being 'close to chaos' a few weeks ago.

Which is often how I describe the journey on the Pacers down here

 

[ainsworth74]

From a quick gander around the web, looks like there were rumblings from the RMT about the talks for the franchise extension being 'close to chaos' a few weeks ago.

Though the RMT say that about nearly everything...

I think the phrase 'calling wolf' comes to mind when it comes to the RMT and their announcements.

 

[tbtc]

5x HSTs would be about right for Hull Trains, but they were supposedly trying to get the line east of Selby electrified (so would have no use for diesel trains)

 

[jon0844]

Though the RMT say that about nearly everything...

I think the phrase 'calling wolf' comes to mind when it comes to the RMT and their announcements.

Yes, I expect Bob would be wanting to make it all sound like a huge mess to then come out with the usual statement that it's time to renationalise.

Whenever a franchise is about to be extended, it's the ideal time to suggest stepping in and taking it back into Government control. And you know he'll get support.

From what I've read elsewhere on here about EC's approach to revenue protection - or should I say, not caring in the slightest about it - I do think we can already see that having DOR take over any more franchises might not actually be such a good idea after all.

 

[1e10]

Although it's highly likely that they won't; it'd be much more financially beneficial for them to lease them to the new TOC rather than just have them sitting in a siding doing nothing.

(Or they could lease them to someone else, such as XC.)

XC don't make best use of their current set do they?

 

[Eagle]

That's because running a HST is much more expensive than running a Voyager, and being as the XC franchise is losing so much money then costcutting like that is kind of necessary.

 

[swt_passenger]

From a quick gander around the web, looks like there were rumblings from the RMT about the talks for the franchise extension being 'close to chaos' a few weeks ago.

About the same time the DfT and FGW denied there was a problem then?

 

[WatcherZero]

I do agree with the op though as I said a month ago they are leaving it awful late and this is just the first of many, in fact this being unresolved must already be eating in to the time they planned for the following negotiations.

 

[Carlisle]

Yes, I expect Bob would be wanting to make it all sound like a huge mess to then come out with the usual statement that it's time to renationalise.

Whenever a franchise is about to be extended, it's the ideal time to suggest stepping in and taking it back into Government control. And you know he'll get support.

From what I've read elsewhere on here about EC's approach to revenue protection - or should I say, not caring in the slightest about it - I do think we can already see that having DOR take over any more franchises might not actually be such a good idea after all.

Im surprised you say that about East Coast i always thought their guards and RPI,s had a pretty strict reputation with tickets and had done for a long time over many years .

 

[Eagle]

Over many years? East Coast has only been operating for just under four years.

 

[starrymarkb]

They did under GNER. Including charging me again when I missed a booked connection due to a delay on the inbound TPX service. TPX took it up until they eventually refunded me 3 months later.

 

[jon0844]

Im surprised you say that about East Coast i always thought their guards and RPI,s had a pretty strict reputation with tickets and had done for a long time over many years .

I am simply giving an opinion based on what someone has said on here. I am of course assuming that the content is true.

If so, it would seem that when a company isn't so concerned with making a profit, it actually gives up on protecting revenue.

 

[Carlisle]

Over many years? East Coast has only been operating for just under four years.

I was also thinking of the end of BR years and GNER times i was once on a train where an RPi took from Peterborough to London just to check one coach ,he must have been scrutinising every detail on all tickets

 

[junglejames]

Yes, I expect Bob would be wanting to make it all sound like a huge mess to then come out with the usual statement that it's time to renationalise.

Whenever a franchise is about to be extended, it's the ideal time to suggest stepping in and taking it back into Government control. And you know he'll get support.

From what I've read elsewhere on here about EC's approach to revenue protection - or should I say, not caring in the slightest about it - I do think we can already see that having DOR take over any more franchises might not actually be such a good idea after all.

Nowt wrong with ECs attitude to revenue protection. Ive always had ticket checks on every train of theirs that ive been on. Ticket barriers unfortunately going up in more and more places. OK they are frequently left open, but thats no bad thing, and you still have the ticket checks onboard.

EC dont stand out as being any worse/ better than anybody else.
In fact, what about South Eastern, and running DOO trains between small, unbarriered stations?

Nope, if you dont want DOR for that reason, then its pretty much time to scrap the railways!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's because running a HST is much more expensive than running a Voyager, and being as the XC franchise is losing so much money then costcutting like that is kind of necessary.

Its more down to the leasing agreements for both.
Give both the same lease agreement, and the HST wins. Much cheaper to run.

 

[SPADTrap]

XC don't make best use of their current set do they?

Not if they're running it like in your signature

 

[Mugby]

Forgive my ignorance in this matter but,

First said they didn't want to take up the option of the extension so they wouldn't have to make a premium payment.

Now DfT go to them cap in hand asking if they will change their mind.

Is this a fair summary?

 

[Eagle]

Its more down to the leasing agreements for both.
Give both the same lease agreement, and the HST wins. Much cheaper to run.

Yes that's what I meant, it's more expensive for them to run them under the lease conditions (couldn't remember the correct words to use though ).

It also bears remembering that the use of the HSTs isn't a franchise commitment.

 

[bnm]

It's not simply 5x HST sets that Great Western Trains Company Ltd (trading as First Great Western) own outright.

There's 10x Class 43 power cars and 36 Mk3's of varying types:

5x TRFB
3x TF
3x TFD
18x TS
2x TSD
5x TGS

With only two Standard Class disabled carriages owned outright, it would be difficult to put 5 full 7/8 carriage HST sets into service elsewhere in First Group's rail division. A few shorter sets is possible, but I suspect the return on leasing the entire owned outright fleet to a new operator would yield a better return than transferring the rolling stock to another First Group TOC. As others have mentioned, there would be track access charges, route clearance, staff training, maintenance facilities, etc, to be provided for.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Forgive my ignorance in this matter but,
First said they didn't want to take up the option of the extension so they wouldn't have to make a premium payment.
Now DfT go to them cap in hand asking if they will change their mind.
Is this a fair summary?

Almost.
The old franchise is dead (well, it will be in October).
DfT made a pig's ear of the new 15-year franchise competitions (WC, GW and others).
The incumbents are therefore negotiating interim franchises, on new terms.
No doubt the debate is about how much premium will be paid.
The FGW extension will be for 3 years, so not much prospect of investment by First (although of course there is plenty going in by DfT/NR).
The next open competition for GW will be in 2016.

 

[swt_passenger]

The next open competition for GW will be in 2016.

In more detail, it'll be a new franchise starting in July 2016, so the competition will presumably have to run on similar to normal timescales from about mid 2015 or earlier - especially if they have yet another full round of consultation about what goes in the ITT?

Dates as per DfT's March 2013 franchising plan:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/170565/rail-franchise-schedule.pdf