FGW starts to reform more 158s

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D6975

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As I was on the bus to work today passing Lawrence Hill, 158960 passed beneath. I couldn't see any of the side nos. This is possibly the first of the 'new' 3 car sets to be reformed as a result of FGW acquiring more 150/1s.
 
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SprinterMan

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Will FGW have any "orphan" 158 driving cars after the reforms are complete, and if they did could they give the one existing real central car they have to northern?
 

D6975

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FGW have 5 2 car sets, so
2x3 + 2x2
or
3x3 with one car left over
or, if they acquire another 2 car set,
4x3
 
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From yahoo groups:

Just spotted in Gemini that FGW have created two 'new' 3 car units
.
158960 is 57749 + 52769 + 57769
Into traffic 6-11-11
.
158961 is 52749 + 52767 + 57767
Into traffic 7-11-11
.
Last days for the donor 2cars were
158749 4-11-11, ended on 2M68 19.10 Taunton - Bristol TM
.
158767 5-11-11, ended on 2C95 22.00 Cardiff - Bristol TM
(actually arrived in SPM at 00.36 on 6-11)
.
158769 4-11-11, ended on 2T98 21.15 Gt. Malvern - Bristol TM
 

BestWestern

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Will FGW have any "orphan" 158 driving cars after the reforms are complete, and if they did could they give the one existing real central car they have to northern?
Ah, there is a plan for that... :D

Supposedly, according to a quite well informed source, there will be a four car set made up, formed of a pair of standard two car sets with the uncouple buttons disconnected in the two adjoining centre cabs. It is intended that this 'unit' will be the permanent booked traction on the afternoon run to Brighton and return, 1O98/1V96. So no releasing of any centre cars (58715 from 158798) I'm afraid! :|
 

SprinterMan

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Ah, there is a plan for that... :D

Supposedly, according to a quite well informed source, there will be a four car set made up, formed of a pair of standard two car sets with the uncouple buttons disconnected in the two adjoining centre cabs. It is intended that this 'unit' will be the permanent booked traction on the afternoon run to Brighton and return, 1O98/1V96. So no releasing of any centre cars (58715 from 158798) I'm afraid! :|
Hmmmm, seems a bit complicated to me. Will this unit be numbered as one unit or will the 2 units retain their individual numbers.
 

BestWestern

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Hmmmm, seems a bit complicated to me. Will this unit be numbered as one unit or will the 2 units retain their individual numbers.
I've no idea, I didn't ask that, but I'd imagine a new number would be needed to identify a semi-permanent formation as one train rather than two, which for operational purposes is what it would be. The three car formations already seem to be exceedingly complicated, most of them have several different numbers displayed in the cabs; indeed 961 was showing two other 'alternative' set numbers in one end when I worked it the other day :|
 

Schnellzug

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the 3-cars often seem to run in 2-car formations, I suppose when the third car's out of action. But the 4-car seems a good idea. That'd be useful for Portsmouth-Cardiff, though I don't suppose there'd be enough sets available to do that.
 

sprinterguy

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Ah, there is a plan for that... :D

Supposedly, according to a quite well informed source, there will be a four car set made up, formed of a pair of standard two car sets with the uncouple buttons disconnected in the two adjoining centre cabs. It is intended that this 'unit' will be the permanent booked traction on the afternoon run to Brighton and return, 1O98/1V96. So no releasing of any centre cars (58715 from 158798) I'm afraid! :|
I was hoping that the two remaining two carriage sets, 158763 and 158766, would run around as a four car set now that FGW has more 150s at its' disposal. I think that semi-permanently coupling the two sets is an overly complicated option though, as it reduces flexibility if one of the units develops a fault and has to be taken out of service.
 

158722

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As with the Virgin 4-car 221 reformations, the idea to form 3x 3-car 158s from the 10 cars available leaves a spare sitting around for most of the time (ok, provides a spare to ensure 3-car operation of all sets should be possible). Some logical thinking would have seen 58715 taken out of 158798 and swapped with Northern for a 153 for example, ensuring all vehicles are available for traffic.

The same goes for the 221s - why couldn't the 3 4-car Virgin sets not be swapped or refromed with 2 5-car sets from Arriva as opposed to having 2 cars sat around doing nothing useful? Arriva would gain to extra coaches and Virgin get their uniform fleet of 5-car units.

Poor management of available resources from the DfT...
 

BestWestern

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I was hoping that the two remaining two carriage sets, 158763 and 158766, would run around as a four car set now that FGW has more 150s at its' disposal. I think that semi-permanently coupling the two sets is an overly complicated option though, as it reduces flexibility if one of the units develops a fault and has to be taken out of service.
Forming up a four car is a slightly odd option I must admit, particularly as its intended diagram, the Brighton run, isn't overly busy and would generally cope with a three car (it currently has to manage with the daily hired-in SWT two car). However it shouldn't be particularly complex if it's just a case of disconnecting the uncouple buttons, it would only take minutes to split them on a depot.
 
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The same goes for the 221s - why couldn't the 3 4-car Virgin sets not be swapped or refromed with 2 5-car sets from Arriva as opposed to having 2 cars sat around doing nothing useful? Arriva would gain to extra coaches and Virgin get their uniform fleet of 5-car units.

Poor management of available resources from the DfT...
That would have been impractical on the ground of cost. The VT sets and the XC sets are different now. The VT sets have forward facing cameras, CCTV through out the train, upgraded first class galley and the hybrid coach....none of which the XC sets have. The XC sets have done away with the shop and the former luggage area on the 603 vehicle is now where the catering is run from. Not to mention the alterations to the XC fleet in removal of the hydraulic rams and replacement with steel bars as part of de-commissioning the tilt system.
 

Schnellzug

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i was just thinking, seeing the title "FGW starts to reform more 158s", it kind of sounds as if they're being sent on some sort of community service course to wean them off drink and drugs ...
 

Schnellzug

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As with the Virgin 4-car 221 reformations, the idea to form 3x 3-car 158s from the 10 cars available leaves a spare sitting around for most of the time (ok, provides a spare to ensure 3-car operation of all sets should be possible). Some logical thinking would have seen 58715 taken out of 158798 and swapped with Northern for a 153 for example, ensuring all vehicles are available for traffic.

The same goes for the 221s - why couldn't the 3 4-car Virgin sets not be swapped or refromed with 2 5-car sets from Arriva as opposed to having 2 cars sat around doing nothing useful? Arriva would gain to extra coaches and Virgin get their uniform fleet of 5-car units.

Poor management of available resources from the DfT...
But that would mean expecting 100% availability all the time, which would be pushing things a bit. It's more sensible to have a spare that you could use if one car from one of your units was damaged or something.
 

158722

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But these plans have nothing to do with the DfT or any 'top down' management and are TOC wishes.
It appears that nothing happens without the DfT's authorisation and I'm sure they have the ability to control what happens with franchise-related stock issues, so whilst perhaps not their idea, then they could have made things happen in a different manner.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That would have been impractical on the ground of cost. The VT sets and the XC sets are different now. The VT sets have forward facing cameras, CCTV through out the train, upgraded first class galley and the hybrid coach....none of which the XC sets have. The XC sets have done away with the shop and the former luggage area on the 603 vehicle is now where the catering is run from. Not to mention the alterations to the XC fleet in removal of the hydraulic rams and replacement with steel bars as part of de-commissioning the tilt system.
Sadly it is NOW, but when first mooted it wasn't (just the tilt issue as mentioned, which apparently isn't difficult to reverse). KIT won't happen now for the reasons you outline, but it shouldn't have been allowed to happen in the first place.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But that would mean expecting 100% availability all the time, which would be pushing things a bit. It's more sensible to have a spare that you could use if one car from one of your units was damaged or something.
I never suggested 100% availability - of the 14 resulting sets, only say 12 would ever be diagrammed, as is usual allowing for routine maintenance/exams, etc. I can't think of any other instances of operators having spare DMU/EMU vehicles (LHCS, yes), used in the same manner that may happen with FGW.
 

swt_passenger

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The Portsmouth-Cardiff services are set to receive new 172s.
Cancelled proposal - the relevant ITT was binned on the same day the GW and NW electrifcation was announced, which was in July 2009:

This electrification programme radically affects the requirements for rolling stock over the next decade. There will be far less need for diesel trains and a greater requirement for electric trains. In particular, the previously-planned procurement by the Government of new diesel trains has now been superseded.
It was only ever an assumption that the ITT would result in 172s anyway - a number of firms were still competing at the time it was cancelled.
 
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Schnellzug

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This electrification programme radically affects the requirements for rolling stock over the next decade. There will be far less need for diesel trains and a greater requirement for electric trains. In particular, the previously-planned procurement by the Government of new diesel trains has now been
superseded.
but that's utterly meaningless as Portsmouth-Cardiff, and indeed nowhere that FGW DMUs are used outside the London District, is going to be electrified, is it? So that's completely meaningless, unless the Government are just talking about cascading 165s & 166s (only 2 or 3 years newer than 158s), to which, frankly, all you can say is "some improvement that'd be" in a sarcastic tone of voice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
what refurb have the FGW units had? If any?
They've done them quite nicely, at least in my humble view. new panelling, new seats, new air con systems.
 

swt_passenger

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So that's completely meaningless, unless the Government are just talking about cascading 165s & 166s (only 2 or 3 years newer than 158s), to which, frankly, all you can say is "some improvement that'd be" in a sarcastic tone of voice.
Well, as I've pointed out before, cascading 165s and 166s to the Bristol area is already mentioned in the relevant NR route plans and RUSs, as is gauge clearance to make them usable in that area and on the Portsmouth - Cardiff route.

So electrifcation does allow for DMUs to be cascaded to the relevant area.
 

Schnellzug

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Well, as I've pointed out before, cascading 165s and 166s to the Bristol area is already mentioned in the relevant NR route plans and RUSs, as is gauge clearance to make them usable in that area and on the Portsmouth - Cardiff route.

So electrifcation does allow for DMUs to be cascaded to the relevant area.
And what benefit would that be, apart perhaps from replacing Pacers? if they're proposing using 166s instead of 158s, then really, is that any improvement at all? So much for NR Route Plans and RUSs, if that's all they can come up with.
 

swt_passenger

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And what benefit would that be, apart perhaps from replacing Pacers? if they're proposing using 166s instead of 158s, then really, is that any improvement at all? So much for NR Route Plans and RUSs, if that's all they can come up with.
Maybe they don't mean replacing the 158s or Pacers, but using everything they can. That way the 158s can all run as 4 car sets. More than one way of providing extra capacity...
 

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That is true. Ideally, perhaps, 165/166s to cascade 150s and 153s to replace 143s, & to allow 150s and 153s to double up, and 4-car 158s on the longer distance routes.
Plus perhaps a few 180s, if GNER hasn't got hold of them all by then...
 

BestWestern

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They've done them quite nicely, at least in my humble view. new panelling, new seats, new air con systems.
No new air-con systems, sadly - except for those in the cabs which only work when the Driver is keyed in at that end! :|

The saloon air-con systems had some rather futile work done to them last year, allegedly, but it is still pretty woeful in general. The seating is a mixture of original items reupholstered and, ahem, 'cascaded' seating ripped out of Scotrail stock I believe. Seat-back tables are still hit and miss. Still no babychange facilities after the previous design was deemed unsafe (about two years back or more). The refurb is sadly now past it's best, particularly the 158s which are now starting to look almost as shabby as they did before :(
 

Blindtraveler

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Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
so a few 166 woule be an improvement then as at least they have decen air con and baby change. didnt know youde taken X Scotrail seating, prisumably the chapmans out of the 25 of our 158s, some of which have had a good refurb! Are First likely to do anything about your sets or will it be left to whoever gets the franchise?
 

Schnellzug

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so a few 166 woule be an improvement then as at least they have decen air con and baby change. ?
No; they're suburban stock with thin and narrow seats (are 166s 2+2 or 2+3; at any rate, they're no better than any other Networker). Frankly, the very idea of the Government expecting that people would believe that they were getting "New Trains" would be a bit of an insult.
 

sprinterguy

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No; they're suburban stock with thin and narrow seats (are 166s 2+2 or 2+3; at any rate, they're no better than any other Networker). Frankly, the very idea of the Government expecting that people would believe that they were getting "New Trains" would be a bit of an insult.
The 166s or 165s could and probably would be extensively refurbished if they were to be introduced on FGW Bristol and West Country services. I reckon that it would be possible to bring the standard of the interior of a Network Turbo up to that of a 170.
 
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