FGW to convert First Class carriages

[Marklund]

They could, but then they'd have gained half as many standard class seats as they have.

Pint half full/empty situation.
They'd lose less (potentially) higher earning seats in First than a full coach, and gain half a coach of Standard.

Although, it doesn't sound as good as the number of coaches converted being less, they could have spun the number of seats converted instead.

Plenty WR HST sets used to have a buffet car with second class seating, and reinventing the wheel is the raison d'être of some railway departments!

 

[jopsuk]

they're not higher earning if they were being filled using cheapo Advances...

 

[Marklund]

Hence (potentially)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Cue whining that the cheapo seat-filler First advances are no longer available

...and all the people on leisure tickets who are currently sitting in first class will just go and sit in standard class instead. Total capacity increase: sod all.

 

[Flamingo]

There are forty more seats in the STD carriage than in the 1st class carriage, so even if Doris and Fred on their £6.80 SNR 1st class Advance from Swansea to Bristol Parkway do now sit in Std, there are still more seats for Std class.

I have to say I personally prefer working a train with six std class carriages. Once the cut-price Advance tickets (which were only there to fill empty capacity) are reduced, it should even out.

The journey may be essential - First Class is always optional.

 

[Bishopstone]

And so will the peoples jobs, but then who cares about the staff eh!

Some of us want train travel to be just a bit more than a quick way from A to B (where possible), we actually want to enjoy the journey but then, there are always those who get jealous isnt there!
There is no need to reduce all rakes down to 1.5 1st class seats, a few could have been left with 2.5 1st and diagrammed accordingly, it isnt exactly rocket science, but then in this dumbed down, one size fits all world we cant have that can we!

First Class hasn't been abolished, but increasingly there will be a need to share a table or use one of the singles. This is, after all, *public* transport.

No doubt there are a handful of trains where FC capacity will be stretched, but equally there will be many others where 1.5 coaches still allows use of a 4-bay per FC customer. Where capacity is limited, bargain basement Advances designed to fill seats can be withdrawn, and quite right too.

In terms of pricing, there are public service/social inclusion arguments for controlling Standard fares, but in First the price should be whatever the market will bear for the accommodation available. It isn't the role of a subsidised service industry to provide cheap, luxury days out.

As for the idea of a small pool of HSTs with 2.5 First: given how often the network in these parts is disrupted, I suggest this would be a diagramming nightmare. Sets with 1.5 First would often turn-up instead, causing seat reservation issues and Twitter outrage from Disgusted of Totnes.

 

[Starmill]

they're not higher earning if they were being filled using cheapo Advances...

Actually it depends. The marginal revenue of a first class seat vs a standard class seat will very closely guarded information. Clearly FGW think they have enough data to decide. It depends not only on the pricing chosen and the premium for first-over-standard, but also if the price elasticity of demand for a first seat is different - and how different - to a standard seat.

Basically we cannot draw a conclusion one way or the other without access to internal information that FGW will never want to give away. There is a small chance that the marginal revenue of a first class seat really is greater than it is for standard class, and FGW have bowed to some sort of pressure from Reading MPs or whatever, but I think far more likely (cynical me) that FGW knew that the average revenue of a first class seat is lower than a standard class seat because their first class tickets are too costly (in other words, first usually has a very low occupation factor outside Reading - London), but rather than reduce the price of first and encourage more use of it (which, by the way, would also alleviate crowding in standard if people consider the payment for more space to be worthwhile), they got the taxpayer to fund the conversion of first to standard so they kept the exclusivity of first, looked good because they spent a minimal sum themselves on just a refurbishment of first, and also kept the Reading moaners' MPs happy. Into the bargain the PR people now have the perfect excuse when people complain that they are increasing the price of first very quickly, which may even increase the average revenue of first class, depending on the elasticity of demand of their core of first class customers (i.e. the smaller number who easily fit into 1.5 coaches), where they have judged said elasticity to be low, and are probably right. Win for them all round?

Some peoples comments about bargain basement first advances miss the point a little, but it is true that if first is getting full on a lot of trains the rationing function will come into effect. We know how full some FGW trains are as it is so sadly it may be simply an extension of this. I wonder if it will lead to the crazy situation in some cases of there being more space in standard than in first, e.g. you want a table to yourself you can get one easily in standard!

In many ways I'm glad my London to Cardiff trip I have now got booked in December so I get to experience what FC is like on FGW before its too expensive! I note that even with a railcard the cheapest tier of £24.25 is not that cheap, and I wouldn't have paid any more for it given how far it is!

 

[TEW]

First Class bookings have been taken on the basis of only 1.5 carriages being available since May. The prices you are paying now are based upon that so they are probably unlikely to change much in the future.

 

[jimm]

And round in a circle we go again.

Well here's a fact to throw into the discussion. In 2011, FGW said it was carrying 90 million passenger journeys a year. That figure is now 99.5 million.

They are not all Reading commuters - despite what some here seem to believe - they are not all on West Country branch lines, many of them are travelling long distances on HSTs in standard class. Not many of them are travelling on full-fare first class tickets. And all of them would like a seat.

Yorksrob, Pullman dining is very nice, but it is not a fundamental pillar of FGW's first class offer - it is available on all of 10 services a day, weekdays only, on just two routes.

Just after 7am yesterday morning, as my train to work rolled in, mid-way through its journey to Paddington, with a pre-9am arrival on a route which supposedly has a higher level of first class custom than many others, the 1.5 first class carriages were occupied by a couple of dozen people, with almost all enjoying a table to themselves. A few more probably joined them at the next couple of stops but the conditions were very far from hellish.

This morning, I will be going in later and confidently expect that the HST heading out of London that my train will meet at a station en route will have precisely zero first class passengers in 1.5 or two coaches, as it does almost every day of the week.

There are, I'm sure, a limited number of trains where first class capacity is being pushed but I'm afraid people on those trains are just going to have to get used to getting the one seat they have actually paid for, not four seats plus a table.

But these services are the exception, not the rule, and that's why the changes are being made, to help accommodate that continued growth in traffic on FGW services, growth that is clearly not being seen in sales of full-whack first class tickets, which are surely the raison d'etre of offering a premium first class product in the first place?

 

[Goldfish62]

And round in a circle we go again.

Well here's a fact to throw into the discussion. In 2011, FGW said it was carrying 90 million passenger journeys a year. That figure is now 99.5 million.

They are not all Reading commuters - despite what some here seem to believe - they are not all on West Country branch lines, many of them are travelling long distances on HSTs in standard class. Not many of them are travelling on full-fare first class tickets. And all of them would like a seat.

Yorksrob, Pullman dining is very nice, but it is not a fundamental pillar of FGW's first class offer - it is available on all of 10 services a day, weekdays only, on just two routes.

Just after 7am yesterday morning, as my train to work rolled in, mid-way through its journey to Paddington, with a pre-9am arrival on a route which supposedly has a higher level of first class custom than many others, the 1.5 first class carriages were occupied by a couple of dozen people, with almost all enjoying a table to themselves. A few more probably joined them at the next couple of stops but the conditions were very far from hellish.

This morning, I will be going in later and confidently expect that the HST heading out of London that my train will meet at a station en route will have precisely zero first class passengers in 1.5 or two coaches, as it does almost every day of the week.

There are, I'm sure, a limited number of trains where first class capacity is being pushed but I'm afraid people on those trains are just going to have to get used to getting the one seat they have actually paid for, not four seats plus a table.

But these services are the exception, not the rule, and that's why the changes are being made, to help accommodate that continued growth in traffic on FGW services, growth that is clearly not being seen in sales of full-whack first class tickets, which are surely the raison d'etre of offering a premium first class product in the first place?

If only the true picture was as rosy as this there wouldn't be a problem. I know several FGW TMs and their view of it is somewhat different.

It is not just a "limited" number of trains where 1st Class capacity is a problem. There are a significant number of West of England services where full fare paying 1st Class passenger are having to stand for long distances. And on the Pullmans, the numbers of tables are having to be reduced on an ad hoc basis to accommodate passengers who don't wish to eat.

I would also question the earlier comment that it would be too difficult to have a sub-fleet of HSTs for West of England . Staff don't seem to think it would an issue and in any case it's effectively going to happen when the Class 800s are introduced anyway.

Anyway, we are where we are, ie massive co*ck up and as result the following is planned for the West of England services ONLY:

-complete abolition of Advance 1st Class fares (this will lose a lot of passengers including me)
-Pullman dining to be offered to 1st Class ticket holders only
-Reduction in number of dining seats

So, a scheme which was to primarily seek to redress the imbalance of First Class on Bristol/Cardiff trains is ending up making West of England passengers suffer the most. Nice work FGW/DfT.

Finally, re FGWs 1st Class "offer". Given that Pulman dining is not a fundamental part of it and the Travelling Chef is being abolished in November, what exactly is the "offer"? A larger seat and free coffee in a cardboard cup. Doesn't exactly compare well with East Cost or Virgin, where advance fares also tend to be cheaper.

 

[Rapidash]

There's an odd block for a lot of people using FGW services out of Devon and Cornwall anyway - there's a discount card that makes travel around the two counties very affordable, but as soon as you want to head past Tiverton or Axminster, the price jumps dramatically (Unless you lie and claim to live in Exeter and get a Network card I guess? )

I've just kind of assumed that it was because DFT/FGW don't like the idea of us yokels staying on the services end to end and scaring the Reading mob with our down to earth linguistics Pro'er jarb!

 

[Starmill]

Finally, re FGWs 1st Class "offer". Given that Pulman dining is not a fundamental part of it and the Travelling Chef is being abolished in November, what exactly is the "offer"? A larger seat and free coffee in a cardboard cup. Doesn't exactly compare well with East Cost or Virgin, where advance fares also tend to be cheaper.

Does the ordinary FC include anything other than free tea and coffee? Are any snacks or cold drinks complimentary? What about WiFi?

 

[Class83]

Presumably someone at FGW has worked out how many companies in Bristol, Exeter, Cardiff and Plymouth are willing to buy their staff flexible 1st Class tickets. If the answer is too low then the seats get pulled and replaced with standard which they will pay for. Even on the ECML/MML/WCML excluding Scotland, how many journeys are long enough to justify expensing 1st class tickets. Look at Peak 1st/Std returns from Manchester to London, if they can fill the Standard carriage the pricing is in the operators favour.

 

[Rich McLean]

Having HST's different types does not work, as at the moment, when disruption hits, Control will put the next available HST on the next diagram due out of Paddington, regardless of spec (apart from the Pullmans)

When IEP comes in however, they will no longer have this flexibility

 

[455driver]

It doesnt seem right that FGW offer less 1st class seats on their HSTs than XC or EC!

 

[Starmill]

I wonder if there will be lots more cheap Advance tickets in Standard class to compensate... hmm

 

[Goldfish62]

Does the ordinary FC include anything other than free tea and coffee? Are any snacks or cold drinks complimentary? What about WiFi?

Free biscuits and soft drinks. No WiFi.

 

[Flamingo]

Does the ordinary FC include anything other than free tea and coffee? Are any snacks or cold drinks complimentary? What about WiFi?

Weekdays - selection of fruit & ordinary teas, coffee (instant or decaf), still or sparkling water, coke, sprite, diet coke, Apple & orange juice, hot chocolate.
Depending on time of day: shortbread biscuits (Walkers), fruit (Apple, orange, plum, banana), almond croissants, two types of musuli bars, plain crisps (Tyrrell), fruit cake, ready salted or roasted nuts, breakfast muffins, I'm sure there is more and it's not all at the same time, and subject to availability (the bananas tend to go quickly on some trains) but it's more than a cuppa. Wednesday afternoon there is a glass of wine as well.

Weekends; Breakfast Tea (Typhoo) coffee, (instant or decaf) still or sparkling water, shortbread biscuits, plain crisps.

WiFi is coming, but I don't know when - not before 2015.

 

[D6975]

Free biscuits and soft drinks. No WiFi.

Here in Bristol First have got WiFi on the buses, but not on the trains (yet).

No first class on the bus as yet either.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

WiFi is coming, but I don't know when - not before 2015.

I was on a FGW HST a few days ago that had wifi fitted (as in, it was a network you could access) but not working. At least, I'm pretty sure I was - it's possible my iPhone could have got seriously confused and thought it was still connected to the outbound 180, but I doubt it.

 

[Flamingo]

Might have been a station. I've had passengers picking up station WiFi thinking it's the train before now.

Some sets do have a big white box taking up room in the TM's office, but not running yet, AFAIK. They have a big sign on the only opening (locked) on them saying "Keep out"!

 

[jimm]

If only the true picture was as rosy as this there wouldn't be a problem. I know several FGW TMs and their view of it is somewhat different.

It is not just a "limited" number of trains where 1st Class capacity is a problem. There are a significant number of West of England services where full fare paying 1st Class passenger are having to stand for long distances. And on the Pullmans, the numbers of tables are having to be reduced on an ad hoc basis to accommodate passengers who don't wish to eat.

I would also question the earlier comment that it would be too difficult to have a sub-fleet of HSTs for West of England . Staff don't seem to think it would an issue and in any case it's effectively going to happen when the Class 800s are introduced anyway.

Anyway, we are where we are, ie massive co*ck up and as result the following is planned for the West of England services ONLY:

-complete abolition of Advance 1st Class fares (this will lose a lot of passengers including me)
-Pullman dining to be offered to 1st Class ticket holders only
-Reduction in number of dining seats

So, a scheme which was to primarily seek to redress the imbalance of First Class on Bristol/Cardiff trains is ending up making West of England passengers suffer the most. Nice work FGW/DfT.

Finally, re FGWs 1st Class "offer". Given that Pulman dining is not a fundamental part of it and the Travelling Chef is being abolished in November, what exactly is the "offer"? A larger seat and free coffee in a cardboard cup. Doesn't exactly compare well with East Cost or Virgin, where advance fares also tend to be cheaper.

Is the TMs' view about the rising number of passengers overall on FGW services different? I doubt it.

Can we please have a list of this 'significant' number of services where first class passengers are standing for long distances? I can hazard a guess at some of the services involved but would rather have a clear idea of what's actually going on.

You will have to forgive a degree of scepticism on my part because I have just read a Hansard report of a Parliamentary debate about the Cotswold Line where the MP for Worcester claimed a company chief executive from his constituency told him he was having to stand for the entirety of journeys between that city and London - which is clearly cobblers. Even the most overloaded westbound 180, the 15.52, starts to clear out after the first couple of stops past Oxford and he shouldn't have any trouble if he's travelling in first, whatever the time of day.

And yet another moan about abolition of first advances... which were only offered in the first place to fill the seats because not enough people were shelling out the full fare.

It's not just the Bristol and South Wales trains, it is also HST services out to Oxford, the Cotswold Line and Gloucester/Cheltenham, ie the overwhelming majority of HST journeys FGW operates every day.

I really wouldn't start attempting to compare FGW with Virgin, where the over-provision of first class seats most of the week is legendary - and in any case they are converting 20-plus of their first class coaches to standard.

 

[Sleepy]

Looking at the price of some Advance 1st class fares in January hock:hock:hock: Think I'll stick to the sleeper in future, £49 berth included is much better.

 

[Flamingo]

The problem with Advance First Class fares (which was predicted by on-board staff) is that it significantly undervalued 1st Class as a product, with fares that were a lot less than the walk-up Std class fare for the same train. It removed the distinction of First Class as a premium product, and the attempt to rebrand it is not going to be easy.

 

[jon0844]

Saw a poster on the tube and it seems like there's going to eventually be a single seat for First Class on every train from next year.

Or maybe I am misreading it.

 

[gareth950]

I don't quite understand some of the posts in this thread regarding 1st Advance tickets. Are FGW intending to abolish 1st Advance fares on ALL of their services, or just selected routes?

I've just booked 1st Advance tickets for a Cardiff --> London Paddington trip in January and had no problem getting the cheapest possible 1st Advance tickets with a railcard at £24.25 each way.

 

[Flamingo]

The official line (even to staff asking) is very vague, which usually means nobody will make a decision.

 

[starrymarkb]

FGW are having a big marketing war with Flybe here in Exeter at the moment. Both are claiming fastest to London

 

[D6975]

Just been looking at some of the FC journeys that I occasionally make on FGW and it appears that the lowest (possibly lowest 2) tiers of pricing have disappeared completely from FC advance. The cheapest FC tickets are now more than £10 more expensive than they were in the summer. (The cheapest STD advance is unaltered)
eg £35.50 is now £45.90

 

[Goldfish62]

Is the TMs' view about the rising number of passengers overall on FGW services different? I doubt it.

Can we please have a list of this 'significant' number of services where first class passengers are standing for long distances? I can hazard a guess at some of the services involved but would rather have a clear idea of what's actually going on.

You will have to forgive a degree of scepticism on my part because I have just read a Hansard report of a Parliamentary debate about the Cotswold Line where the MP for Worcester claimed a company chief executive from his constituency told him he was having to stand for the entirety of journeys between that city and London - which is clearly cobblers. Even the most overloaded westbound 180, the 15.52, starts to clear out after the first couple of stops past Oxford and he shouldn't have any trouble if he's travelling in first, whatever the time of day.

And yet another moan about abolition of first advances... which were only offered in the first place to fill the seats because not enough people were shelling out the full fare.

It's not just the Bristol and South Wales trains, it is also HST services out to Oxford, the Cotswold Line and Gloucester/Cheltenham, ie the overwhelming majority of HST journeys FGW operates every day.

I really wouldn't start attempting to compare FGW with Virgin, where the over-provision of first class seats most of the week is legendary - and in any case they are converting 20-plus of their first class coaches to standard.

Well, obviously it's up to you if you don't believe the staff who work these trains, but I'd be interested to know why you think they are not telling the truth. I wonder what they would have to gain.

And I'm sure I can get you a list of multiple occasions where 1st Class ticket holders have had to stand.