FGW to convert First Class carriages

[jimm]

I didn't say I did not believe it may not be happening on occasion, but whether it is a 'significant' number of occasions is another matter. And there is no getting away from the fact that elsewhere in FGW-land there simply is not the demand there from full-fare first-class passengers to provide 90-100+ seats on HSTs, even in the weekday peaks. Nor, I venture to suggest, on West Country services most of the day either.

On the other hand, demand on FGW services across the board is still rising, as those figures I gave demonstrate. Dealing with that is a rather more pressing concern than the loss of dirt-cheap first advances.

I don't quite understand some of the posts in this thread regarding 1st Advance tickets. Are FGW intending to abolish 1st Advance fares on ALL of their services, or just selected routes?

I've just booked 1st Advance tickets for a Cardiff --> London Paddington trip in January and had no problem getting the cheapest possible 1st Advance tickets with a railcard at £24.25 each way.

The key issue is the West Country trains where a lot of people have got used to being able to get a cheap seat in first, using advances which were offered to fill seats that would otherwise be sailing up and down empty most of the day. The reduction in accommodation for first appears to be meant to get it more in balance with the number of full-fare first class tickets being sold in the weekday peaks across the FGW network and, as Flamingo says, try to make it more of a premium product again.

On the Cotswold Line, there is no such thing as an advance ticket anyway, in first or standard.

 

[455driver]

There are a few peaktime trains every weekday where there is insufficient 1st class provision, what do you propose for these?

 

[jon0844]

It's a problem if there are some services where first class ticket holders can't get into first, or have to stand (sure, a ticket doesn't buy a seat but there's a general acceptance that first class is much about getting a seat as anything else).

Why is it a problem if it's just a handful of services? Because there are obviously a number of first class season ticket holders or people on business paying full-fare that travel at the busy, popular and convenient times (hence peak) who may well just decide not to pay for first class. These are a valuable income to FGW, and indeed the railway, so it could actually impact on revenues.

In my experience, a lot of people will travel in the morning peak on the same train, maybe even the same carriage or even seat, but will be spread out more in the evening. You may leave work at different times every day, go for a drink, do some shopping, need to pick something up or whatever - so perhaps the load is a bit more evenly spread and manageable.

Ultimately, this isn't the fault of FGW that I can see. It's a requirement from the DfT and, given the circumstances, probably for 'the greater good'. However, I hope the DfT realises that there will be an impact.

 

[jimm]

Have these people never heard of seat reservations?

Providing the right capacity is a balancing act and there may be some trains that first class is a squeeze but, as I said above, there are other FGW HST services where you would struggle to spot a first class passenger. The line has to be drawn somewhere and full-fare first class tickets are clearly not selling like hotcakes these days.

 

[Marklund]

I didn't know you can reserve a seat when the train has departed and already on the move now.

 

[jimm]

I didn't know you can reserve a seat when the train has departed and already on the move now.

I think it's fairly obvious I meant before the train departs. It might be a clue if they are told all the seats were reserved that it might be an idea to try another train...

 

[Marklund]

Well, of course it was obvious...

I agree with the comment about telling the passengers that there are limited seats left, but the railway, like it or not, is in the business of dealing with a turn up and go market.

If there is standing in first, it must be people with non-compulsory reservation tickets, (ie advance) so it's likely full fare first ticket holders are standing. Not the clientele you want to upset.

To turn round and say have they not heard of seat reservations is a bit silly.

 

[jon0844]

How practical would it be for a season ticket holder to reserve a seat in both directions every single day?

I guess it's doable, but it would be a bit of an inconvenience.

As I said, nobody with a first class ticket has a god given right to a seat but there's a general acceptance that it's unlikely you won't get one.

If that changes, you either start to reserve every day (and lose the flexibility of having a season/full price ticket as you need to reserve two hours ahead) then you might start to reconsider having a first class ticket at all.

And if standard is still busy and a gamble, perhaps some people will consider other travel options completely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How practical would it be for a season ticket holder to reserve a seat in both directions every single day?

I guess it's doable, but it would be a bit of an inconvenience.

The vast majority of commuters take the same trains every day. A smaller number, but still significant, always take the same outward but may not take the same return train. I'd think very few indeed vary the outward train.

Neil

 

[Class83]

It doesnt seem right that FGW offer less 1st class seats on their HSTs than XC or EC!

They currently offer far fewer standard class seats than EC, is that right?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They currently offer far fewer standard class seats than EC, is that right?

In any case FGW IC these days, except the relatively few West of England services, is really a semifast long-distance-commuter type service more comparable with Chiltern than East Coast or Virgin (other than the Brum services in the latter case). It just happens to use HSTs for historical reasons.

Demand for First Class is typically lower on this kind of service due to the shorter journey times.

Neil

 

[jopsuk]

They currently offer far fewer standard class seats than EC, is that right?

this would be more helpful if I had good data on FGW!

 

[Bishopstone]

There are a few peaktime trains every weekday where there is insufficient 1st class provision, what do you propose for these?

1. Take a seat in Coach A, which we are told always has spare capacity because Reading commuters don't like walking to/from the barriers at Paddington. Save a lot of money on the ticket price, and re-invest it in the peanuts and lukewarm coffee you would have got as complimentaries in First.

2. Take an earlier train.

3. Take a later train.

(Many of the folk in First Class are the bosses not the workers. Nobody is going to sack them if they arrive at 9.30, then work through into the evening.)

I often can't get a seat in First Class if I change from Southern to Thameslink at East Croydon in the morning. Yes, it's not ideal, but that's hardly a good reason to increase First Class provision when the whole train is heaving.

 

[jimm]

Well, of course it was obvious...

I agree with the comment about telling the passengers that there are limited seats left, but the railway, like it or not, is in the business of dealing with a turn up and go market.

If there is standing in first, it must be people with non-compulsory reservation tickets, (ie advance) so it's likely full fare first ticket holders are standing. Not the clientele you want to upset.

To turn round and say have they not heard of seat reservations is a bit silly.

The FGW timetable for the West Country services shows quite a number of trains with an 'R' symbol at the top of the column, meaning seat reservations are recommended, which is there for a reason. And it really doesn't take a genius to work which trains might be busy, whether or not Pullman dining is provided.

If I was paying for a first class seat all that way, I would be making damn sure I actually had one to sit in, whether buying an advance or an anytime return. And first class ticketholders can reserve a restaurant seat on the 18.03 and 19.03.

Are you saying that FGW should just carry on providing 90 or 100+ first class seats on all its HSTs, just in case that many full-fare first class ticketholders turn up once in a while? When it's clear enough that there just aren't that many trains where that is happening any more - unless artificial means, such as first advances, are being used to fill them.

And for all the blethering on here about the future availability of first advances, there still seem to be an awful lot of them available on the FGW website for journeys between Paddington and the West Country next January, even if not quite as cheap as some people have come to expect in recent years.

 

[59CosG95]

Does anyone know what coaches have been converted from First to Standard? Only wondering because I saw coach no. "42559" at Chippenham this afternoon.

 

[Flamingo]

FGW do offer the option of reserving one seat a day each way for season-ticket holders, I think it's done in blocks of a month or more (but am not sure). It's not day-by-day, anyway.

I haven't heard any horror stories yet about 1st Class standing while std class was empty, and as the cheaper Advance go off-stream this could even itself out.

I have heard (from an unconfirmed source) that the plan is to increase Advance availability in Std class. As I have said, the journey may be essential, First Class is optional.

 

[Marklund]

Are you saying that FGW should just carry on providing 90 or 100+ first class seats on all its HSTs, just in case that many full-fare first class ticketholders turn up once in a while?

No...

 

[Tetchytyke]

I have heard (from an unconfirmed source) that the plan is to increase Advance availability in Std class. As I have said, the journey may be essential, First Class is optional.

Although on the Cornish services FGW need to be careful.

As it stands the first class advance tickets are roughly comparable with Flybe. When I went down last month to Truro it cost us £60 each (with 2Together railcard). Coming back from Newquay with Flybe it cost £60 each.

Push first class fares too much and people won't take the train, they'll take the plane.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do people compare First Class with planes, when plane seating, while I give you it's quicker, is normally far below rail Standard Class comfort levels?

 

[jon0844]

Going by plane also requires a bit more planning in most cases, as well as there being very limited numbers of seats and presumably not the same number of flights per day as a train.

 

[GodAtum]

I hope they keep the 1740 from Maidenhead - Paddington an HST. Trying to get a 1st class seat on a slow Turbo is like pulling teeth out!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Going by plane also requires a bit more planning in most cases, as well as there being very limited numbers of seats and presumably not the same number of flights per day as a train.

Using Advance tickets requires planning too, as you are tied to a specific train (and woe betide you if you miss it).

I compare First Class with air travel because the speed is part of the comfort. Flybe take 50 minutes from Newquay to Gatwick. First Great Western take 5h40, with a change at Par and often at Plymouth or Newton Abbot too. As for comfort, I'd say a Dash 8 wasn't much less comfortable than a FGW standard class seat.

 

[jimm]

Originally Posted by jimm
Are you saying that FGW should just carry on providing 90 or 100+ first class seats on all its HSTs, just in case that many full-fare first class ticketholders turn up once in a while?

No...

According to you

the railway, like it or not, is in the business of dealing with a turn up and go market.

. Which I take to mean they should be providing lots of first class accommodation, just in case lots of people turn up. If it's not that, what are you saying?

I compare First Class with air travel because the speed is part of the comfort. Flybe take 50 minutes from Newquay to Gatwick. First Great Western take 5h40, with a change at Par and often at Plymouth or Newton Abbot too. As for comfort, I'd say a Dash 8 wasn't much less comfortable than a FGW standard class seat.

Flybe may well take 50 minutes - courtesy of a nice subsidy from us taxpayers - but how long does getting to and from the airports, check-in, hanging around for bags, etc, add on to that 50 minutes?

And FGW does it in 4hrs 56mins if you catch the 12.06 off Paddington, right into the centre of Newquay, not five miles away at St Mawgan, which is a hike from every population centre in Cornwall except Newquay.

 

[jopsuk]

It is notable that whilst a decade ago Newquay had both Air South West to Gatwick and Ryanair to Stansted, both on a commercial basis, it now has flybe on a subsidised "public service" basis. Shows limited demand for such an air link.

 

[Marklund]

According to you . Which I take to mean they should be providing lots of first class accommodation, just in case lots of people turn up. If it's not that, what are you saying?

:roll: Nice try. Go back and look again at what I have said.

You're just looking silly now.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Flybe may well take 50 minutes - courtesy of a nice subsidy from us taxpayers - but how long does getting to and from the airports, check-in, hanging around for bags, etc, add on to that 50 minutes?

I travelled back from Perranporth to Hemel Hempstead and was home two hours before the equivalent train (from Truro) would have got me there. There are no direct winter trains to Newquay, assuming you are able to get a direct train to Par the train journey still involves a change and an hour on a 153. The train takes as long to get from Par to Newquay, a distance of 20 miles, as the plane does from London.

Also First Great Western get subsidised by 6.5p per passenger mile.

If First Great Western want to cut the quality of their service, and increase prices, then I'm sure Flybe will be happy to take their custom from Exeter and Newquay. The four-hour gap in the middle of the day from Cornwall is already bad enough.

Cost-conscious passengers will probably take the train as it is cheaper, but those with some money in their pocket have choices. FGW would be on dangerous ground if they just assumed that those on first class advance tickets (and £90 each way full price- I paid £65 with a railcard- is not cheap) would trade down to standard rather than look for alternatives. Perhaps they don't care and are happy to lose that custom.

 

[RPI]

The 4 hour gap from Cornwall is reduced to 3 hours from December with the 13:01 Pnz-Pad

 

[21C101]

There is also a new Flybe service from Exeter Airport.

A round Trip Exeter 06.35 arr City 07:55 dep city 16:40 arr Exeter 17:55 costs £174.98. Journey Time 1h 20 each way.

In comparison FGW first train 05.46, arrives Paddington 08.38 2h52 mins. £236 standard class anytime return £373 first class anytime, return same day in the peak.

SWT 05.10 Exeter -Waterloo arr 08.38 3h 36m £120 standard anytime return £199.20 first class anytime return same day in the peak.

 

[CC 72100]

I'm not sure which thread is most appropriate, but it sort of seems on-topic enough - the wi-fi on the FGW sets is now active. Used it today on the 14:00 Penzance - Pad, seemed quick enough, although not sure whether the fact that the wifi is working is 'advertised' yet - it may slow down when some bright sparks try to use all the bandwidth by watching iplayer or something.

 

[jon0844]

Some services can be restricted I believe, to try and preserve a reasonable speed for all.