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First capital connect fine assistance

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Ferret

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So do I, but to be completely pragmatic, I feel that it is the greatest assistance to the OP to advise paying-up, even where the report suggests an injustice, advice given on purely practical grounds.

To do otherwise could lead to escalating costs persuing some ultimately unprovable truth.

(But I have no wish to dissuade the OP from appealling if they are willing to invest the time and take a punt and win or loose.)

Well, having weighed this up, I think an appeal would fall down because the minimum connection time at Peterborough was not met. FCC will *probably* just argue that the PF is valid because the OP should've purchased a valid ticket there, rather than rushing to make an illegitimate connection.


Grudgingly I'd have to advise the OP to pay, but at the same time, if he's willing to risk an appeal and was to be successful, then I'd see it as justice done. I don't however see this as any more than an unlikely outcome.
 
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LexyBoy

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As others have said it will be very hard to prove that you were informed that you could buy on board, or that the FCC RPIs were insulting to you (of course it would be different if you had misinformed or insulted Railway staff, but that's by the bye). My usual advice is to always get confirmation of any advise in writing, a phone or face-to-face conversation is essentially worthless.

You are supposed to buy a ticket (or tickets) for your whole journey at the first opportunity (but are not expected to delay your journey at an intermediate station to do so). This opportunity was on the first train, but for some reason the guard did not want to or know how to issue the tickets from Peterborough to London. Again, it will be very hard to prove that the guard wouldn't issue these tickets rather than you not asking for them. I guess in theory you could ask XC to query the guard working that service whether she remembers you / what would she do if someone made the request you did, but I don't know how likely they would be to follow up on such a query.

The issue with the 2 minute connection at Peterborough is that it's less than the official connection time - using this would put you on the subsequent FCC train and thus give you enough time to buy in Peterborough. I'm not sure how much water this argument holds but FCC may well use it.

Thus it's advisable to pay before the deadline, but I would definitely still appeal (you can still appeal after paying IIRC), on the grounds that the first opportunity to buy a ticket was when you arrived in London (and asked to buy the tickets you expected to).
 

jkdd77

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Well, having weighed this up, I think an appeal would fall down because the minimum connection time at Peterborough was not met. FCC will *probably* just argue that the PF is valid because the OP should've purchased a valid ticket there, rather than rushing to make an illegitimate connection.

Grudgingly I'd have to advise the OP to pay, but at the same time, if he's willing to risk an appeal and was to be successful, then I'd see it as justice done. I don't however see this as any more than an unlikely outcome.

If the PF was issued "from Oakham" rather than "from Peterborough", then it would appear to be invalid on that ground alone and an appeal ought to succeed.

Personally, given that FoI figures from the Ministry of Justice suggest that TOCs do not, in practice, pursue PFs as civil debts, and given that the OP may, in this instance, have a viable defence (and possibly a counterclaim) available, I suggest that the prospect of being sued by FCC over the balance of the PF is very remote indeed.

If it were my money on the line, and I was satisfied that there was no risk at all of criminal prosecution, I would appeal, with the intention of ignoring all further correspondence (other than actual court papers, of course) if the appeal fails.

I acknowledge that this carries two risks; 1) the remote possibility (surely less than 5%) of being successfully sued in the county court (probably for c. £150-£200), and
2) the further possibility that having an "unpaid" PF on file may well lead to being treated more harshly in the case of any future 'ticketless travel'.

The final decision is, of course, up to the OP.

For the avoidance of doubt, I would never advise ignoring a nil-paid (or less than half paid) PF, UFN, or ignoring any other situation where there is any possibility at all of criminal prosecution in the event of failure to make a payment or reach a settlement agreement.
 

hluraven

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Paying the PF and then appealing is fine and there are many seasoned appeal writers here who will help you, but not paying and ignoring correspondance pushes this from a penalty fare issue to a potentially criminal one. Ignoring a request to pay a PF equates to intention to avoid paying a fare which is a far more serious matter.

OP and anyone else in a similar position - please do not follow this route for your own sake.
 

island

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My viewpoint of this is that the OP and friends have a case to have their appeal upheld. There are three grounds, and a possible fourth.

Firstly, they commenced their journey at a station that is not a Penalty Fares station and did not have enough time at their interchange point to purchase a ticket for their onward journey.

Secondly, they offered to pay at their first opportunity and at the first time when the full range of tickets was offered. They did not have the full range of tickets available on the XC train as the guard didn't know what she was doing.

Thirdly, an authorised person (the XC guard) told them to board the train at Peterborough without a ticket.

The fourth and most tenuous ground is that the party did not encounter a penalty fares warning notice at the entrance to the FCC platform at Peterborough. I don't know the layout of the station so I can't say whether that is right or not.

I am less sure that the ground of being told over the phone to pay on the train will go anywhere. Not that we do not trust the OP, but as far as FCC is concerned that's just a "man on the platform" story.

As mentioned above, if appealing it is essential to be dispassionate and not write a screed about the staff misbehaving and being rude, even if it's true. Like it or not it will cause your appeal to be taken less seriously. Once you have a letter in your hand saying the appeal has been allowed and a cheque refunding you for the extra amount paid, complain away. But keep them on your side for now.

I also congratulate them for not choosing the option of paying nothing and it would be taken further. That tends to be far more costly in the long run. I would also strongly counsel against ignoring the matter.

I will be pleased to proof-read and suggest amendments to any appeal letter if it has not yet been sent. Such a letter should enclose copies of the tickets bought from Oakham and request repayment of the difference between the amount paid and the correct fare for the day, whatever that was (I will calculate it given enough details).

Whatever happens please tell us how you get on.

Finally, two minor niggles. Firstly, it's "could have", "wouldn't have", etc., not "could of". Secondly, in the interest of being precise as we are discussing a legal matter, we should not refer to a penalty fare as a fine, as strictly speaking only a court can issue a fine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the PF was issued "from Oakham" rather than "from Peterborough", then it would appear to be invalid on that ground alone and an appeal ought to succeed.

It wasn't. The PFs were for £58, double the SDS from Peterborough to London Terminals route FCC only. No other relevant single fare is £29.
 

Ferret

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Island - Point 1 falls down because a 2 minute connection is not a legitimate connection.
Point 2 possibly falls down for the same reason. This leaves us with point 3 - which is difficult to prove unfortunately. Although I feel the OP has been harshly treated (for this read 'stitched up' if you prefer), we should be honest with him about why any appeal may well fail.

I second your advice to keep things concise and factual at this stage rather than going off on a rant, should the OP decide to chance it. To the OP,let us know what you decide.
 
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island

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I don't think the Penalty Fares Rules make reference to minimum connection times. And even if they did, how is a member of the public meant to know about them?
 

eastdyke

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..... Secondly, they offered to pay at their first opportunity and at the first time when the full range of tickets was offered. They did not have the full range of tickets available on the XC train as the guard didn't know what she was doing .....

Would the XC guard have been able to sell GroupSave tickets for the onward journey? I believe that XC is one of the TOC's that do not offer GroupSave. On the other hand the fact that XC do not offer these tickets may have contributed to the poor advice (to board a train without a valid ticket).
 

Ferret

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Would the XC guard have been able to sell GroupSave tickets for the onward journey? I believe that XC is one of the TOC's that do not offer GroupSave. On the other hand the fact that XC do not offer these tickets may have contributed to the poor advice (to board a train without a valid ticket).

See a post I made earlier ;) Just because XC do not accept Groupsave on their trains does not mean they cannot issue them for onward travel on a different operator. The relevant fares are in the Avantix machine. ;)
 

eastdyke

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See a post I made earlier ;) Just because XC do not accept Groupsave on their trains does not mean they cannot issue them for onward travel on a different operator. The relevant fares are in the Avantix machine. ;)

Ah, sorry/thanks :oops:.

Warning Notices:
Last time that I visited Peterborough (11th July) the station was undergoing an upgrade. It is possible that proper Warning Notices are temporarily deficient for the route, either steps or ramps, taken between platforms 4/5 (XC arrival) and 3 (FCC departure). Does anyone have the current local knowledge?
 

yorkie

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• Interchange. A passenger who changes onto a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station
may normally be charged a penalty fare if ticket facilities were available at the interchange
station and warning notices were displayed where they could be seen by anyone changing
onto the penalty fares train. However, under condition 7 of the National Rail Conditions of
Carriage, the full normal range of tickets must be made available to any passenger who
started their journey at a station where no ticket facilities were available. In these
circumstances, a passenger should not be expected to buy a ticket at the interchange station
if they do not have enough time to do so without missing their connection. If it is not
possible to check whether or not ticket facilities were available at the station where the
passenger started their journey (which may be a station run by a different train company), a
penalty fare should not be charged.
The question is whether or not they can say "that is not a valid connection for journey planning purposes therefore you are not entitled to take an earlier train, and you can be penalised for not being able to obtain the ticket on the train" - there is nothing to say that is the case.

I will now attempt to determine the correct position...

Edit I have had confirmation from a senior, informed source within the industry; there is nothing stating the customer should let have let that train go, providing they asked at the first reasonable opportunity to buy the tickets for their entire journey they should not have been issued a PF, and the OP should have valid cause for appeal. I have sent the OP a PM offering my assistance.
 
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MikeWh

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Island - Point 1 falls down because a 2 minute connection is not a legitimate connection.

A legitimate connection is surely only important if you miss it and need to be allowed to travel on a later train with a ticket which wouldn't otherwise be valid, or wish to claim delay repay compensation. Take the scenario where there might be an hourly service and you allow 15 minutes connection time into that service. On arrival at the station you find that trains are being seriously delayed but the one before your connection has just arrived. Surely you are allowed to take that train, it might just mean that you aren't late after all. In this case, the passenger is allowed to utilise the 2 minute connection if it works, but if the inward train is late and they miss it there is no recourse to compensation.

I therefore agree with island that the OP should write a concise letter explaining the whole details of their journey and that for whatever reason the XC guard was unable to issue the onward tickets, making the first opportunity to buy tickets occur at Kings Cross.
 

Ferret

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I think this is the key part of the PF regulations as posted by Yorkie:

In these circumstances, a passenger should not be expected to buy a ticket at the interchange station if they do not have enough time to do so without missing their connection.

A connection would, I assume, be what a journey planner would give - ie a valid connection, taking into account minimum connection times. Alas, that's why I think FCC would stick by the PF in this case.
 

MikeWh

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OK. Then add into the letter that the passengers were aware that it wasn't a valid connection and were prepared to take the risk that it might be missed, however, they did attempt to buy the correct tickets on the XC train and as they were able to make the connection, they did.

Perhaps the letter should be sent both to FCC customer services and their chief executive, as well as to the penalty fares appeal body.
 

Ferret

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Perhaps the letter should be sent both to FCC customer services and their chief executive, as well as to the penalty fares appeal body.

I'd agree with that, if the OP does want to appeal. There's every chance that your line of argument could work Mike - I think it's a tough one to call.
 

34D

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Paying the PF and then appealing is fine and there are many seasoned appeal writers here who will help you, but not paying and ignoring correspondance pushes this from a penalty fare issue to a potentially criminal one. Ignoring a request to pay a PF equates to intention to avoid paying a fare which is a far more serious matter.

OP and anyone else in a similar position - please do not follow this route for your own sake.

I do not agree with this. The PF has been part paid (to equate to the fare due).

It is probably worth reminding the OP that there are many different suggestions and opinions in this thread, but that only yorkie and davenewcastle represent the 'official' voice of the forum, as official fares advisors. I repeat that dave had already given good practical advice if you want to have a quiet life. If on the other hand you believe what occurred is unfair..... then stick around.
 

radamfi

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Just a thought that had occurred to me. Is it possible to pay the PF by credit card and then file a claim with the credit card company to get a refund on the grounds of paying more than they were supposed to?
 

thedbdiboy

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Whilst I appreciate that many of the replies here are given in good faith, I am rather disturbed that the implication is that, assuming all the facts supplied are true, the Penalty Fare would appear unfair but that it is more trouble than it is worth to appeal it.

Assuming all the information supplied is correct, the journey undertaken is Oakham - London - this is NOT covered by Penalty Fares legislation, and the OP will not have had site of the statutory notices required to enforce Penalty Fares.

The OP and his party had apparently been informed by someone in NRE to buy their tickets for the second leg on the train. I agree this may be unprovable, but we do not live in police state and the general law of the land is innocent until proven guilty. Therefore to state that this evidence cannot be cited seems unreasonable.

The OP and party tried to buy their tickets at KGX. This does not suggest evidence to avoid payment.

In this case, if the OP wishes it, it would seem reasonable to appeal this case, and if need be to contact Passenger Focus, as all the information provided suggests that every attempt was made to check for and buy the correct fare and that there was no opportunity to be given the fair warning of the Penalty Fares policy at PBO because it was not the origin point of the journey.

Interestingly enough, a general issue was raised in the industry with regard to the London 2012 Games that lots of people unfamiliar with the network would be travelling in connection with events, and that even more care than usual would be required to ensure that discretion was used properly when dealing with ticket irregularities - this seems to be a classic example.
 

Ferret

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Well, I'd like to think that I haven't said myself that it's more trouble than it's worth to appeal it. I have tried to set out both sides of the argument so the OP can make a balanced judgement on whether to go for it or not. I've said in a PM chat just now with Yorkie that I rate his chances at 50/50.
 

island

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Just a thought that had occurred to me. Is it possible to pay the PF by credit card and then file a claim with the credit card company to get a refund on the grounds of paying more than they were supposed to?

No, for various reasons not least that the statutory protection on credit card payments applies to transactions between £100 and £30,000.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Whilst I appreciate that many of the replies here are given in good faith, I am rather disturbed that the implication is that, assuming all the facts supplied are true, the Penalty Fare would appear unfair but that it is more trouble than it is worth to appeal it.
As this response is presumably informed by my own advice as much as anyone else's, perhaps a reply is in order.

I did make a big assumption - that the OP has plenty other things in life to be getting concerned with, and while accepting a solution to pay-and-forget may leave a lasting sense of injustice, I was contrasting that with the experience of several others who have been consumed for days or weeks, and in some cases months, by anxiety, hope and anticipation, with little more than their own thoughts to console them while they wait for a letter, and then another, before reaching an outcome. For the cost of a meal out, I assumed that the latter just "wasn't worth it".

I base my experience on, among other things, having assisted others in fares disputes, several with FCC. While those outcomes have been favourable, it has been clear to me from regular emails and texts (e.g. "I didn't get a letter today, what should I do?") that these are very stressful experiences. Some people have complained of sleeplessness. If there was also a detrimental effect on their personal or work lives, I don't know. Now admittedly, most of these have been whan passengers are faced with outcomes that include prosecution, and that isn't a possibility here (apparently), but the same balances of cost vs. time and of assurance vs. doubt applies.

All this is in stark contrast to those regular posters on here who are likely to have a much easier time working with the industry, perhaps do work in the industry, and for whom the whole matter is mundane and 'just another job'.

My assumption about the OP may have been wrong. Perhaps the cost of a good meal out is worth the letters, phone calls and the waiting. I hope I left that option wide open and proposed firstly settling the Claim, and then making their own choice "to take a punt" on writing a letter, complete with suggestions on what to include and to exclude. I hope they were able to make that decision based on the advice.

It's not like you, thedbdiboy, not to read posts carefully, so either in this one instance you have rather skimmed my advice and the comments from others, or else I have been unclear; in which case, I hope this further clarifies my assessment.

I'm aware of the advice to staff to be more vigilant in applying discretion during the London 2012 period, but the facts of the matter is that the OP and their fellow travellers are where they are: wronged but with little or no evidence, and FCC are where they are, with a huge amount of appeals and investigations by officers who have no first hand experience of the incidents they are investigating.

My assessment is unchanged, but thanks for giving me the opportunity to expand on my advice. If the OP is still with us, then perhaps this will assist them in reaching their decision in which course of action to take.
 
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RPI

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It is dangerous to work on the assumption that FCC will not pursue the balance as a civil debt, no, they PROBABLY wouldnt, however, the PF rules allow any monies paid for a PF to be refunded and the notice cancelled and then prosecute for the original offence (18.1) and i wouldn't put it past FCC to do this!
 

LondonJohn

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There's 2 factors to your report which are interesting:Can you still confirm this, in any form that can be used as evidence? e.g. In writing? Or provide the Name of the person who gave this oral advice and at what time?

Can you provide any evidence that this accusation was made, exacly in the terms you've reported it, and with the name of the person who made that accusation?

If your answer is 'yes' to either of my questions, and your report is entirely true and complete in all relevant details, then we have a Defence.
Otherwise I suggest you pay as directed and don't waste any more time on the matter.

I have not read the whole thread so please excuse me if I have missed something but I was led to believe that calls to NRE were recorded and if you complain, and tell them the number that you were calling from they can listen to the call. This got me out of a hole after I refused to pay a higher fare than quoted and a goodwill payment for the inconvenience.. If this advice was given then surelty NRE would be liable for incorrect advice given..

Possibly a good idea to pay up then claim the money back from FCC or NRE enquiries though subsequently.
 

Ferret

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I have not read the whole thread so please excuse me if I have missed something but I was led to believe that calls to NRE were recorded and if you complain, and tell them the number that you were calling from they can listen to the call. This got me out of a hole after I refused to pay a higher fare than quoted and a goodwill payment for the inconvenience.. If this advice was given then surelty NRE would be liable for incorrect advice given..

Possibly a good idea to pay up then claim the money back from FCC or NRE enquiries though subsequently.

This is interesting - I've never heard of this being done before! Thanks for sharing that experience.
 

snail

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Would there be any point in including XC in any appeal? It was the inability of their conductor to sell the group save ticket that got the OP into this situation.
 

Ferret

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Maybe snail! Although, anyone know what happened to the OP? He seems to have disappeared:(
 

snail

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All this confusion about who is responsible makes me think a 'rail ombudsman' may not be a bad thing. Someone who can deal with this kind of problem independently and consistently and lay down guidelines that everyone can follow. As in other industries, they need only be involved where an appeal or complaint to the TOC has not been resolved to the customer's satisfaction.
 

hluraven

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they need only be involved where an appeal or complaint to the TOC has not been resolved to the customer's satisfaction.

Passenger Focus, or in London - London TravelWatch, provide this role although they have no enforcement powers.
 

island

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And are therefore equivalent in utility to a chocolate teapot. I think a body similar to the Financial Ombudsman Service would be far more useful.
 
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