First Great Western "1st Class as Standard"

[Drsatan]

No, they don't - the XC HST's have more than one coach of FC. Not that XC FC is really worth the extra money, for me the only benefit of XC FC is not having your face wedged against a door in a vestibule on a Voyager.

Besides, you can't really compare XC 1st class to FGW 1st class.

Although I've never traveled 1st class on XC, my understanding is that if you're lucky you may get a free hot drink or one of the complimentary items off the menu.

 

[Bishopstone]

But then the 1000 from Penzance is a generally busy train throughout, not just in First Class. An increase in seating capacity would be a good thing on that train. As someone who travels a lot on FGW HSTs in Standard I really wouldn't say it's horrendous.

Nor would I. The legroom is good and I find the Standard seats comfortable. I accept the point about not being able to see down the coach, but why is that a big issue? Most folk are engrossed with a tablet/book/paper, or (rarely, these days) looking out the window. What's to see, down the carriage?

No, the only horrendous seats on Inter City services are those fitted in Standard on East Coast Mk IVs and HSTs, clearly designed with no thought whatsoever to a correct posture.

Given the fGW First Class complimentary offer is an instant coffee and a small pack of nuts, the only reason to travel FC with them is the extra space. With an additional coach of Standard this will be quieter and FC busier, so the logical response is to buy a Standard ticket and reinvest the £50 saving in a proper coffee and a bigger pack of nuts before joining the train, with £45 left over.

 

[jon0844]

The Daily Mail goes with this on the front page, to tie in with news that rail fares have risen again - and that there are to be protests at King's Cross later today.

Seems to talk mostly about FGW, but suggests this is somehow going to happen everywhere (well the headline certainly does). Obviously no attempt to mention why first class can still be a good thing to have, or that the higher fares can subsidise other fares - thus the Government having to consider how to compensate operators because it will cut revenues.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sters-pay-train-firms-away-premium-seats.html

Train firms are to be paid millions by the Government to convert first class carriages for use by standard ticket holders to ease overcrowding.
First class carriages will become a rarity as a result of the move designed to placate passengers angry at being packed into increasingly congested standard class carriages on busy routes.
As commuters returning to work after the Christmas and New Year break are hit by another punishing round of fare rises, Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin is preparing to pay train companies to do away with first class seats that are left empty, Government sources say.

Some of the comments so far:

jacob, Edinburgh., moments ago
Shaking my head in disbelief , someone should've suggested more carriages to the In touch minister .... :-/ is the whole govt full of idiots ?

avfc1982, Birmingham, UK, moments ago
I don't want to be sitting with the cattle class!

Tony Margiocchi, luton, United Kingdom, moments ago
To be fair, it is unreasonable to expect a fare paying commuter to stand when there are empty seats. Surely it would also put them at risk if the train suddenly stopped. A good move but one the government should not pay for as the customer and his/her safety should be uppermost in the rail company's mind.

Cyberpup, Gillingham, United Kingdom, 5 minutes ago
I always travel first class as I like the privacy & extra space. Nobody in second class has the right to complain about empty first class seats cos they bought second!

Kev Smith, NORTHAMPTON, United Kingdom, 6 minutes ago
please understand Minister it does not cost MILLIONS to remove the first class stickers off the sides of and the interiors of coaches, it can be done during overnight maintenance, the seating can be changed at the next scheduled overhaul. I think you need to understand this...the TOCS are supposed to PAY YOU and the treasury, not the other way around, thats why the railways were privatised in the first place to save the country some cash, not cost it MORE....OR AM I MISSING THE POINT....

angela, llandudno, United Kingdom, 6 minutes ago
About time

devils advocate, manchester, 7 minutes ago
Why not remove premium seating on all transport? No premium, no upper class, god forbid no first class. How will the well heeled go to work or on holiday.....in cattle class....don't hold ones breath.

Iyionic, Whereimmeanttobe, 7 minutes ago
Thank god!

honi soit qui mal y pense, Avalon, 7 minutes ago
Long overdue. Empty first class carriages are the equivalent of the towels on unoccupied sun loungers. Let the glitterati and demigods hire a chauffeured limo to get about and leave some room on the train for the mere mortals.

buster, Bristol, United Kingdom, 8 minutes ago
I use the Paddington to Taunton line multiple tines at short notice and can never get a seat so I stand in the buffet car every time . The first class carriages are nearly all empty makes sense to replace them

 

[bnm]

In my experience the 10.00 from Penzance is usually full in First Class after Exeter.

Really?

I used this service from Plymouth to Reading/Paddington at least once a month in 2013, and on no occasion was 1st Class full after Exeter. Nor after Taunton.

On every occasion I was able to use the Pullman on a Standard Class ticket, and can say with confidence that the 95 seats in G and H were not all occupied.

 

[amcluesent]

This smacks of gesture politics from the ConDems after Miliband stole a march on them with talk of freezing fuel bills.

Nothing better than some populist tub-thumping at the expense of the 'toffs' in 1st class:roll:

 

[jon0844]

It's funny how people on here that actually use the trains can testify that many services are very busy in first class - but on the Daily Mail it would seem they're always empty from the many armchair experts - like the one that suggested just adding more coaches!

Of course, the same people making such claims are probably the same that at other times deem it worthwhile to moan about fat cat business leaders, bankers and MPs enjoying first class travel to suit another agenda.

I would have thought that getting Virgin to get rid of a first class carriage would have been a better starting point though.

 

[bb21]

In my experience Virgin are nowhere near as badly crowded as FGW are in Standard. Yes, they can get busy at certain times of the day, but that is unlike FGW who seem to be crowded for the majority of the day on some routes, especially at weekends.

One solution is for GroupSave to be unavailable on many more than the trains currently listed. They are pretty unique in allowing GroupSave to be used throughout much of their Intercity routes.

 

[northwichcat]

I think the 9 car Pendolinos and FGW HSTs have similar percentages of first and standard class accommodation. However, Virgin now have 11 car Pendolinos which have a higher percentage of standard class accommodation and before they got them they declassified carriage G on summer weekends.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Only time I have seen a Pendolino full in first class was after a Man U home match, the train was full and standing throught both classes

 

[47802]

Ok if that's the plan it will be interesting to see how much first class is taken out on other routes Virgin Pendolino with 3 and third 1st class I guess could lose a coach and probably only some Manchester peak services might struggle for 1st class, similarly the East Coast.

Of course the down side of this is the cheap fares particularly at weekends as treat for those of us who can not normally afford 1st class will probably reduce or disappear, and some business people may opt to fly instead.

 

[southern442]

EDIT: something went wrong whilst quoting, see the next page for my post.

 

[cjmillsnun]

This smacks of gesture politics from the ConDems after Miliband stole a march on them with talk of freezing fuel bills.

Nothing better than some populist tub-thumping at the expense of the 'toffs' in 1st class:roll:

Interesting first post jumping straight in at the political deep end.

From what I can see it's more a case of a way of mitigating against a real problem. Sadly it won't do enough, but it's not the worst idea in the world.

 

[bb21]

I think the 9 car Pendolinos and FGW HSTs have similar percentages of first and standard class accommodation. However, Virgin now have 11 car Pendolinos which have a higher percentage of standard class accommodation and before they got them they declassified carriage G on summer weekends.

It's the 11-cars that have a ratio closer to FGW HSTs.

FGW HST: 5.5:2 or 5:2.5 so a ratio of roughly 2.75 or 2
9-car Pendo: 4.5:3.5, a ratio of roughly 1.3
11-car Pendo: 6.5:3.5, a ratio of roughly 1.85

 

[Qwerty133]

It's the 11-cars that have a ratio closer to FGW HSTs.

FGW HST: 5.5:2 or 5:2.5 so a ratio of roughly 2.75 or 2
9-car Pendo: 4.5:3.5, a ratio of roughly 1.3
11-car Pendo: 6.5:3.5, a ratio of roughly 1.85

7 car 222: 4:3, a ratio of 1.333333333
of the extra 2 cars between a 5 car and 7 car meridian only 1/3 of it is standard class.

 

[Goldfish62]

So EC and VT do freshly cooked food do they?
EC and VT do full proper Restaurants do they?
EC and VT have proper reclining leather seats do they?


Given the choice I would take FGW over the other 2 every time!

There's no need for the tone.

You well know that there are only a handful of trains with a full and very expensive restaurant and of the others only some have a travelling chef. I recently paid £9 for Ham, egg and chips and quite honestly the quality was no better than the free stuff on EC and VT.

Also, you may not be aware, but the 1st class seats on EC are identical to those on FGW, but use moquette, which I personally prefer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Really?

I used this service from Plymouth to Reading/Paddington at least once a month in 2013, and on no occasion was 1st Class full after Exeter. Nor after Taunton.

On every occasion I was able to use the Pullman on a Standard Class ticket, and can say with confidence that the 95 seats in G and H were not all occupied.

Yes, really. When I used it last in October it was full, bar a handful of seats, from Plymouth and was only relieved from Exeter when people were able to sit in the restaurant. When I joined at Penzance all seats in 1st were reserved. Luckily there were a few no shows.

How are you able to assess how many empty seats there are in 1st class anyway, if you have a standard class ticket?

 

[Squaddie]

Also, you may not be aware, but the 1st class seats on EC are identical to those on FGW, but use moquette, which I personally prefer.

I also fail to understand the appeal of leather seats. I find that a good-quality moquette gives a much warmer and more luxurious impression than the shiny seats on FGW. In terms of comfort and space, though, FGW is certainly one of the best first class products available in the UK.

 

[47802]

I actually don't think its a bad plan with IEP a few years away yet, push 1st class fares up, reduce or eliminate cheap 1st class fares, less empty coaches off peak sell more cheap tickets for standard class off peak.

Question is how far will it go beyond the prime intercity routes to London would it be eliminated completely, eg on such as LM, XC and TPX?

Of course its not going to be popular with those who travel 1st and it would reverse a trend on the east and west coast where the number of 1st class seats has tended to increase.

 

[southern442]

The Daily Mail goes with this on the front page, to tie in with news that rail fares have risen again - and that there are to be protests at King's Cross later today.

Seems to talk mostly about FGW, but suggests this is somehow going to happen everywhere (well the headline certainly does). Obviously no attempt to mention why first class can still be a good thing to have, or that the higher fares can subsidise other fares - thus the Government having to consider how to compensate operators because it will cut revenues.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sters-pay-train-firms-away-premium-seats.html

This is the daily mail remember...

 

[snowball]

There was a brief mention of conversion of first class accommodation to standard on the BBC TV news on 2nd Jan, as part of the item on fare increases. Not specific to FGW.

 

[yorksrob]

No, but having very little First Class provision might. Of all the TOC's which could be argued to have over provisioned First Class I'm really not sure FGW are one of them. 2.5 coaches on an 8 coach train doesn't seem excessive.

In my University days I used to walk past around four empty 1st class carriages to get to standard on the WCML.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

HSTs being formed 2+9 would struggle to keep to existing timeings through Devon and Cornwall.

It's a question of priorities.

Given the Great Western HST's are already too short (hence the rather cramped layout in standard) wouldn't people prefer to have more chance of a seat (in both classes) and experience a limited relaxation of timings in the far west, rather than being squashed in and getting there a few minutes earlier.

 

[43167]

In my University days I used to walk past around four empty 1st class carriages to get to standard on the WCML.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It's a question of priorities.

Given the Great Western HST's are already too short (hence the rather cramped layout in standard) wouldn't people prefer to have more chance of a seat (in both classes) and experience a limited relaxation of timings in the far west, rather than being squashed in and getting there a few minutes earlier.

I do seem to recall some of the Mk2 sets having 4 FO's on the WCML.

 

[jimm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by headshot119
HSTs being formed 2+9 would struggle to keep to existing timeings through Devon and Cornwall.

It's a question of priorities.

Given the Great Western HST's are already too short (hence the rather cramped layout in standard) wouldn't people prefer to have more chance of a seat (in both classes) and experience a limited relaxation of timings in the far west, rather than being squashed in and getting there a few minutes earlier.

It's not simply about the Devon banks, it's also about depot layouts and sidings, some of which probably can't handle formations with more than eight trailers. As for 'too short', GW sets were 2+7 with only four TSOs until the late 1980s. And while you would fill 2+9s at busy times, especially in the Thames Valley, where demand seems almost infinite, you'd be lugging around yet more empty standard seats the rest of the day. Not that different from empty first class seats in 2+8s now really.

 

[tbtc]

A few thoughts:

Firstly, this won't happen. Its just a convenient idea for a politician to suggest at a time when people are seeing train tickets increased with inflation (odd how this year's increase seems to have attracted more criticism than the above inflationary increases of previous years, but most people have seen real terms pay cuts for a few years now, myself included).

Secondly, only a Tory Government would be able to suggest this (it'd be seen as "Class War" if Labour wanted to get rid of First Class - "class envy" etc)

More importantly, you've got to remember that there's been a number of companies cutting back on First Class travel in recent years - the recession has been an excuse for some companies to eliminate the cost of First Class travel. Even MPs aren't generally allowed First Class nowadays (hence the George Osbourne story making the headlines).

So I wouldn't be surprised to see IEP built with a lot more Standard carriages compared to First carriages (unlike when the nine coach 390s were built). But it'd be a lot of faff to start ripping 2+1 seats out of HSTs and sticking 2+2 seats instead, since they'll be starting to get withdrawn in a few years time.

 

[swt_passenger]

A few thoughts:

Firstly, this won't happen. Its just a convenient idea for a politician to suggest at a time when people are seeing train tickets increased with inflation (odd how this year's increase seems to have attracted more criticism than the above inflationary increases of previous years, but most people have seen real terms pay cuts for a few years now, myself included).

If you're so sure it won't happen, please explain the meaning of the DfT statements in the FGW franchise extension announcement I quoted on page 1?

...But I am also determined that we see further improvements during the lifetime of this contract; more standard class and fewer first class seats on key services and the delivery of more electric trains for the Thames Valley.

and...

The Department for Transport will continue to work with FGW on a number of other proposals to improve services over the next two years, including:
increasing the capacity of the existing high speed train fleet, with the addition of new seating in advance of the arrival of the new intercity express trains

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/franchising-deal-to-boost-services-on-great-western-main-line

 

[jimm]

A few thoughts:

Firstly, this won't happen. Its just a convenient idea for a politician to suggest at a time when people are seeing train tickets increased with inflation (odd how this year's increase seems to have attracted more criticism than the above inflationary increases of previous years, but most people have seen real terms pay cuts for a few years now, myself included).

Secondly, only a Tory Government would be able to suggest this (it'd be seen as "Class War" if Labour wanted to get rid of First Class - "class envy" etc)

More importantly, you've got to remember that there's been a number of companies cutting back on First Class travel in recent years - the recession has been an excuse for some companies to eliminate the cost of First Class travel. Even MPs aren't generally allowed First Class nowadays (hence the George Osbourne story making the headlines).

So I wouldn't be surprised to see IEP built with a lot more Standard carriages compared to First carriages (unlike when the nine coach 390s were built). But it'd be a lot of faff to start ripping 2+1 seats out of HSTs and sticking 2+2 seats instead, since they'll be starting to get withdrawn in a few years time.

It is happening. One first class compartment in the 166s was declassified almost immediately after the new franchise contract started.

As you say, first class business travel perks have been cut back and my own observations in FGW land suggest that first class coaches in the peaks are more sparsely populated than they would have been five or six years ago, so there is some logic to this.

FGW said the following to the Oxford Mail yesterday

Spokesman Dan Panes said “capacity issues” had been recognised as no first class carriages were regularly more than 70 per cent full.

Full story: http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/10911395.Railing_over_rising_fares/

It's not a lot of faff to change the seats, especially when many of FGW's HSTs are going through works over the coming months for overhaul to keep them running until IEPs arrive. The seats may well be being taken out anyway during the stay at Wabtec, depending on the extent of interior work. You would certainly have to do it to inspect wiring, etc.

And if Labour was in power, their MPs and candidates in the Thames Valley would be making sure voters knew it was their idea, no matter what the Daily Mail et al may say - though no doubt Mr Dacre believes he is on the side of the 'average commuter'. Don't forget he was actually rather chummy with Gordon Brown and is no fan of Cameron.

I'd certainly agree with you that longer IEPs are likely to lose some first class seating, compared with the draft layouts from IEP, but then I have been pointing out for some time to those who insist here that the IEP order is set in stone, both in terms of train fleet and interiors (on the basis of those DfT drafts), that is not the case. One of the the things FGW is required to do under the new contract is to work with Agility to sort out these issues.

 

[Bishopstone]

If FC in some trains is regularly 70% full now, what will that percentage be after the conversions?

Are these (70% full) trains peak services with mostly season/Anytime ticket holders, or (say) Sunday pm services from the West Country to London with lots of Advances and Weekend First?

 

[jon0844]

It would seem that in the peaks or on certain routes, first class won't be big enough.

Given first class ticket holders won't be happy to stand, and presumably couldn't get money back unless it was so full they couldn't get in to first class (and even then, would that qualify?) it may well mean people will decide not to pay for first class in the future.

(As an aside, if people who would travel first class dare moan about not being able to get a seat, they'll be sure to get zero sympathy from anyone because, after all, anyone who can afford first class is now painted as being a nasty fat cat, MP or someone out of touch and not 'in it together'.)

But that's probably why the Government will be compensating the TOCs based on a calculated loss in revenue.

To me this is not a bad idea or something for people to moan and rant about. It's a quick fix for capacity issues, and probably cheaper than any other solution that wouldn't be achievable as quickly anyway.

Not that this will stop the likes of Bob Crow using it as another reason for bringing the railway back into public ownership, to stop us 'rewarding' the private companies at the expense of the tax payer (without realising that it would cut revenues to the tax payer if in public hands anyway).

 

[yorksrob]

It's not simply about the Devon banks, it's also about depot layouts and sidings, some of which probably can't handle formations with more than eight trailers. As for 'too short', GW sets were 2+7 with only four TSOs until the late 1980s. And while you would fill 2+9s at busy times, especially in the Thames Valley, where demand seems almost infinite, you'd be lugging around yet more empty standard seats the rest of the day. Not that different from empty first class seats in 2+8s now really.

I know there's an argument that all trains have times when they are less lightly loaded, it's just the following factors mark out GW as a special case:

Personal experience tells me that mainline services to the South West can be quite cramped and crowded. So much so that I tend to travel from Waterloo as far as Exeter for a more comfortable journey.

Standard class has already been refurbed to a very high density pattern, so it already seems to be a recognised problem (not least since the Government are intervening in the franchise provision on this) and there seems to be little scope for further alteration in that respect.

From what other posters have mentioned, there doesn‘t seem to be an over supply of first class provision, and that there is seems to be well loaded already.

 

[jimm]

I know there's an argument that all trains have times when they are less lightly loaded, it's just the following factors mark out GW as a special case:

Personal experience tells me that mainline services to the South West can be quite cramped and crowded. So much so that I tend to travel from Waterloo as far as Exeter for a more comfortable journey.

Standard class has already been refurbed to a very high density pattern, so it already seems to be a recognised problem (not least since the Government are intervening in the franchise provision on this) and there seems to be little scope for further alteration in that respect.

From what other posters have mentioned, there doesn‘t seem to be an over supply of first class provision, and that there is seems to be well loaded already.

Your location would suggest you don't travel on FGW services very much. I do, four, five and sometimes six days a week. And outside the weekday peaks, there simply isn't the demand for first class travel on most services to justify current levels of provision. Even in the peaks, plenty of trains have empty seats in first.

Today I watched an HST heading off to Hereford from my local station. There were all of two passengers occupying two first class coaches with almost 100 seats.

It may be the case on some other services that there is sufficient demand to fill those coaches but from all the huffing and puffing elsewhere on this forum about the future availability of first advances on FGW, I suspect that if you were to limit the supply of those - which are already carefully quota-managed anyway - there would still be more than adequate capacity for people willing to pay the full whack for first class, even at the busiest times.

 

[Mojo]

Although I've never traveled 1st class on XC, my understanding is that if you're lucky you may get a free hot drink or one of the complimentary items off the menu.

CrossCountry First class during the week is much-improved from the latter days of Virgin-operation (on the HST and Voyager services); First class hosts are provided for more of the route and for longer, and in addition to the drink selection there is a proper sandwich or panini.