First Great Western "1st Class as Standard"

[LM 170]

First Great Western are in talks with the Department for Transport about turning one of the 1st class coaches into Standard Class in ever FGW HST set.

As soon as it is agreed with the DfT then this will mean that for a short amount of time you will be able to sit in 1st class seats but they are classed as standard class so 1st Class as Standard .

I guess for a short while at least.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

All it will do is move the problem one coach closer to the buffers at Paddington.

 

[Goatboy]

What a shame. I really enjoy travelling First with FGW. This change will make travelling First:

a) More crowded
b) More expensive

Ah well, such is life.

It makes sense for some of the more commuter-style uses for the HST's I suppose but every single HST set? Shame they cant just do it to the high density ones. First is always reasonably busy when I use it.

 

[Captain Chaos]

It's been a complete pain tbh. On Turbo's we have people sitting in there thinking it is First, people refusing to sit there because they believe it is, people sitting in the wrong de-classified end etc, etc. I've even seen people run to the other end when they see the train arrive because the de-classified bit is at the other end to sit in "first", only to find it rammed because others have had the same idea and they now can't get a STD seat either because the carriage is to full for them to pass through. The irony of course being that if they had stayed put they would have got one. Oh well!

With the gradual erosion of 1st class availability would this spell the beginning of the end for weekend first? With ITSO sales presumably not allowed on train and the eventual removal of paper tickets will we be looking at a weekend firstless future?

 

[All Line Rover]

I tend not to bother with declassified First Class carriages. If a half empty carriage with Standard Class seats magically turned into an almost full carriage with First Class seats, all well and good. But permanently declassified First Class carriages have a tendency to attract the punters, creating a noisy, unpleasant ambience that certainly can't compete with the Standard Class Quiet Coach.

Permanently declassifying a First Class coach also tends to (a) disgruntle some Standard Class passengers who don't manage to get an elusive 'First Class' seat; (b) annoy First Class passengers who feel the premium they pay good money for is being eroded; and (c) encourage First Class passengers to downgrade to Standard Class.

Instead, why not introduce (as First proposed for the West Coast) a 'Standard Premium' coach - with, say, the same price premium as Weekend First - on the majority of services? It raises extra revenue for the TOC, doesn't create a division between Standard Class customers in Standard Class and those in 'First Class', and reassures First Class passengers that they aren't paying extra for something which Standard Class passengers can (to a certain extent) get for free.

 

[anme]

With the gradual erosion of 1st class availability would this spell the beginning of the end for weekend first? With ITSO sales presumably not allowed on train and the eventual removal of paper tickets will we be looking at a weekend firstless future?

The guard can still charge you a tenner or whatever, and give you a receipt, to let you sit in first class. I don't think ITSO will mean the end of weekend first.

 

[Goatboy]

The guard can still charge you a tenner or whatever, and give you a receipt, to let you sit in first class. I don't think ITSO will mean the end of weekend first.

No, but having very little First Class provision might. Of all the TOC's which could be argued to have over provisioned First Class I'm really not sure FGW are one of them. 2.5 coaches on an 8 coach train doesn't seem excessive. It's usually well patronised whenever I use it, and even if those people are using Advance First's even the cheap ones are generally (except in the odd quota sellout situation) significantly more than the equivilent cheap standard Advance.

 

[swt_passenger]

This 'talks with DfT' stuff is a smokescreen, now that the changes are about to start appearing.

The intention to change the balance between First and Standard was announced (albeit not that explicitly) by DfT and FGW back in October, in their press releases about the direct franchise award.

...But I am also determined that we see further improvements during the lifetime of this contract; more standard class and fewer first class seats on key services and the delivery of more electric trains for the Thames Valley.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/franchising-deal-to-boost-services-on-great-western-main-line

 

[Captain Chaos]

The trouble is you have to allow for season holders as well and people returning on Anytime tickets. Anyone who has been on a West Of England service at a weekend will know that at current levels all carriages are well used. Removing a carriage will result in a lack of capacity for first class upgraders at weekends. Resulting in a decrease in revenue as a result.

Only way of solving this would be to have the carriage 're-instated' at weekends. This however could cause confusion I fear. Anyone think this could be to coincide with IEP? Might be trying to get people used to reduced 1st class perhaps?

 

[Bishopstone]

I think that with the next General Election approaching, the Government will be looking for ways to get back on the front foot on the 'cost of living'/fairness for ordinary people agenda.

Increasing Standard accommodation at the expense of First could be one such policy, albeit largely symbolic, and it wouldn't surprise me to find other TOCs doing similar - eg on multiple units which currently have two small First Class cabins, one at each end. (I'm thinking classes 377 on Southern and 360 on Greater Anglia, for example).

The problem is, of course, that on commuter/business trains, the peak demand for Standard and First seats coincides time-wise. In a best case scenario those who use First to conduct business meetings, two to a bay of four seats, will get a rude awakening. The worst case scenario will see those who've paid Open/Season fares unseated: and yes, they could have reserved, but I imagine management of this group will be problematic for a while.

 

[All Line Rover]

Anyone think this could be to coincide with IEP? Might be trying to get people used to reduced 1st class perhaps?

I have no problem with reduced First Class accommodation and the withdrawal of cheaper First Class 'Advance' tickets providing the TOCs provide seat back tables in Standard Class that are large enough to accommodate laptops and writing pads* and properly enforce the byelaws with resources to support such much needed action and introduce a 'silent coach'. I imagine the latter would be a challenge on the shorter formation IEPs, though it would be a godsend for those who prefer to read/work when travelling rather than chat on their mobile phone and/or engage in loud conversation for the entire duration of their journey.

On the subject of providing sufficient First Class accommodation for season ticket holders and reducing the number of cheaper First 'Advance' tickets to accommodate this, it is worth remembering the proportional amount season ticket holders pay each day. For example, a weekly First Class season from Bristol to London costs £114.90 per weekday. For that one gets complete flexibility concerning the time of travel, plus 'free' travel at weekends. There are 4 tiers of First 'Advance' tickets lower than £114.90 return (none of which tend to be available on Peak services) and 5 tiers of such tickets above £114.90 return. So it could be argued that First Class season ticket holders should be given the lowest priority, particularly as they tend to travel at the same time as First Class 'Anytime' ticket holders. Of course, whilst some TOCs might like to have a small amount of First Class accommodation with only First Class 'Anytime' tickets available, I'm sure they appreciate that season ticket holders provide up to a year's prepaid guarantee income that Anytime ticket holders do not.

*On London Midland's 350/1s the seat back tables in Standard Class are not large enough to accommodate small laptops and writing pads, whilst those in First Class are. Those in First Class should be emulated on all trains, in both classes of travel.

 

[David Goddard]

Are there many spare Mk3 vehicles around?
I would have thought that adding a extra Std to each train (as they did on the East Coast a few years back) would be a better solution to increase overall capacity.

 

[headshot119]

Are there many spare Mk3 vehicles around?
I would have thought that adding a extra Std to each train (as they did on the East Coast a few years back) would be a better solution to increase overall capacity.

HSTs being formed 2+9 would struggle to keep to existing timeings through Devon and Cornwall.

 

[455driver]

So is it a complete FC coach which is being converted to standard or is it just the buffet which will be turned around and converted?

Some peak trains use all the existing FC accommodation so converting any on these trains would cause problems.

 

[Daimler]

So is it a complete FC coach which is being converted to standard or is it just the buffet which will be turned around and converted?

Some peak trains use all the existing FC accommodation so converting any on these trains would cause problems.

I very much hope the latter - while I use standard class most of the time on FGW when I do use first it's generally quite well-filled (excepting Cotswold line HSTs).

What, I wonder, would this mean for the Pullman Dining services, which FGW have only recently revamped - if HSTs only have 1 1/2 coaches of First Class, I would doubt that leaves room both for First Class passengers and those who wish to eat in the restaurant.

 

[GearJammer]

Ive only ridden in 1st Class on a Great Western HST once when they were on the Reading diverts into Waterloo... quite possibly the nicest traveling experiance ive ever had on a train, it really was... well, 1st class.

I can well understand why people would make a bee line for a 1st class coach if it was de-classified to standard class..... i know i would.

 

[TEW]

So is it a complete FC coach which is being converted to standard or is it just the buffet which will be turned around and converted?

Some peak trains use all the existing FC accommodation so converting any on these trains would cause problems.

From what I've heard the buffet won't be turned around on any sets. Sets with full buffets will have a complete FC carriage converted to Standard and sets with micro buffets will have half an FC carriage converted to Standard. That will give all sets 1.5 First Class carriages.

It's a good idea in my opinion, not only for peak times out of London but for the Summer as well, when standard gets very busy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What, I wonder, would this mean for the Pullman Dining services, which FGW have only recently revamped - if HSTs only have 1 1/2 coaches of First Class, I would doubt that leaves room both for First Class passengers and those who wish to eat in the restaurant.

It shouldn't be a problem. The Pullman doesn't take up any extra seats and on the busiest trains in First Class, the 1803 and 1903 out of Paddington the majority of diners will be First Class passengers anyway. On the other services First Class capacity is not really an issue.

 

[Bishopstone]

I wonder whether the remaining full FC coach will be partitioned to create a Quiet Zone.

 

[47802]

From what I've heard the buffet won't be turned around on any sets. Sets with full buffets will have a complete FC carriage converted to Standard and sets with micro buffets will have half an FC carriage converted to Standard. That will give all sets 1.5 First Class carriages.

It's a good idea in my opinion, not only for peak times out of London but for the Summer as well, when standard gets very busy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It shouldn't be a problem. The Pullman doesn't take up any extra seats and on the busiest trains in First Class, the 1803 and 1903 out of Paddington the majority of diners will be First Class passengers anyway. On the other services First Class capacity is not really an issue.

Interesting is this likely to happen on any other routes? we have Virgin with 145 First Class Pendolino seats.

 

[BestWestern]

From what I've heard the buffet won't be turned around on any sets. Sets with full buffets will have a complete FC carriage converted to Standard and sets with micro buffets will have half an FC carriage converted to Standard. That will give all sets 1.5 First Class carriages.

It's a good idea in my opinion, not only for peak times out of London but for the Summer as well, when standard gets very busy.

That sounds sensible. A single FC coach on the TSB sets would be a squeeze on peak evening runs out of Paddington. The only downside then would be the inevitable incursion from the half standard coach into First, but then again that tends to happen anyway on the busiest services.

As for the early posts mentioning temporary declassification, I don't see that happening. I would imagine coaches will simply be released as they are converted, there is no need to have anything running around temporarily declassified and doing so would cause major headaches.

There is gossip regarding Weekend First seeing the withdrawal of complimentary items, at least to some degree. That is by no means official however and could be bullsh*t. There is also the ongoing trial of an additional standard class trolley perambulating (good word!) coaches A,B and C. There is speculation about where the staff would come from to run such an operation if it were to become permanent; a suggestion being that the current first class trolley provision may be an element in the equation. Again, nothing official. Time will tell!

 

[Goldfish62]

From what I've heard the buffet won't be turned around on any sets. Sets with full buffets will have a complete FC carriage converted to Standard and sets with micro buffets will have half an FC carriage converted to Standard. That will give all sets 1.5 First Class carriages.

It's a good idea in my opinion, not only for peak times out of London but for the Summer as well, when standard gets very busy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It shouldn't be a problem. The Pullman doesn't take up any extra seats and on the busiest trains in First Class, the 1803 and 1903 out of Paddington the majority of diners will be First Class passengers anyway. On the other services First Class capacity is not really an issue.

In my experience the 10.00 from Penzance is usually full in First Class after Exeter. Presumably FGW will reduce the availability of 1st Advance fares to deal with this. Well, it'll certainly work with me. The 1st Class service on FGW is poor compared with EC and VT and without cheaper fares to compensate, plus the Standard Class is horrendous. I drive to Cornwall about 50% of the time, but I think I'll be driving 100% of the time in future.

 

[southern442]

It's been a complete pain tbh. On Turbo's we have people sitting in there thinking it is First, people refusing to sit there because they believe it is, people sitting in the wrong de-classified end etc, etc. I've even seen people run to the other end when they see the train arrive because the de-classified bit is at the other end to sit in "first", only to find it rammed because others have had the same idea and they now can't get a STD seat either because the carriage is to full for them to pass through. The irony of course being that if they had stayed put they would have got one. Oh well!

On FCC they did this in quite a good way with the 377/5's. they removed the antimacassars and added signs saying standard class. Why couldnt they do this with FGW?

 

[455driver]

In my experience the 10.00 from Penzance is usually full in First Class after Exeter. Presumably FGW will reduce the availability of 1st Advance fares to deal with this. Well, it'll certainly work with me. The 1st Class service on FGW is poor compared with EC and VT and without cheaper fares to compensate, plus the Standard Class is horrendous. I drive to Cornwall about 50% of the time, but I think I'll be driving 100% of the time in future.

So EC and VT do freshly cooked food do they?
EC and VT do full proper Restaurants do they?
EC and VT have proper reclining leather seats do they?


Given the choice I would take FGW over the other 2 every time!

 

[jimm]

On FCC they did this in quite a good way with the 377/5's. they removed the antimacassars and added signs saying standard class. Why couldnt they do this with FGW?

That's what they have done on the 166s, pending the seats being changed as the sets go through works for a facelift and installation of a disabled-accessible toilet. However, there isn't that much of a difference in the two types of accommodation on a 166, whereas there is a clear divide in quality between standard and first on both the 180s and HSTs, which I'm sure FGW wants to maintain.

Given that the HST fleet is now going through works for overhaul to keep it going until 2018, changing the seats while that is going on makes a lot of sense. FGW is also having five more unused HST buffet cars converted to TSOs to provide a pool of spare coaches to assist in the process.

 

[TEW]

In my experience the 10.00 from Penzance is usually full in First Class after Exeter. Presumably FGW will reduce the availability of 1st Advance fares to deal with this. Well, it'll certainly work with me. The 1st Class service on FGW is poor compared with EC and VT and without cheaper fares to compensate, plus the Standard Class is horrendous. I drive to Cornwall about 50% of the time, but I think I'll be driving 100% of the time in future.

But then the 1000 from Penzance is a generally busy train throughout, not just in First Class. An increase in seating capacity would be a good thing on that train. As someone who travels a lot on FGW HSTs in Standard I really wouldn't say it's horrendous.

 

[Goatboy]

1st Class 'service' in FGW might be 'poor' but the standard of accomodation is very high, the nicest I've ever used. To me, the standard of accomodation is more importnat than 'free stuff'.

I caught an FGW HST the other day in 1st - it had just 2 First Class coaches as Coach F was a micro buffet. To reduce provision below this level realy doesn't sound like the right idea. Even Greater Anglia have more First provision on IC services..

 

[455driver]

First Great Western are in talks with the Department for Transport about turning one of the 1st class coaches into Standard Class in ever FGW HST set.

As soon as it is agreed with the DfT then this will mean that for a short amount of time you will be able to sit in 1st class seats but they are classed as standard class so 1st Class as Standard

Where have you got the information that a 1st class coach will be positioned in the standard class section before the seating is converted?

The way I read it some spare standard class coaches will be inserted in the sets releasing a 1st class coach from those sets for conversion, once these are done they will be inserted in some other sets and they will have a 1st class coach removed for conversion, at no time will a 1st class coach be positioned in the standard class section (unless to replace a coach undergoing repair as happens occasionally now).

Word is that most sets will be converted but some will retain 2 full 1st class coaches, when asked if they would retain the 1st class in the buffet I couldnt get an answer, so the jury is still out on that one.

 

[All Line Rover]

Don't CrossCountry have a single First Class coach on their HSTs? That seems to work, and they are still able to offer reasonably priced First Advance fares on off-peak when you book (far) in advance.

Virgin, a more comparable TOC to FGW than XC, have a similar situation with their Voyagers, and the only services I know of where the First Class coach can become full is the 09:35 from Chester to Euston (a busy service where Virgin strangely offer cheap First APs) and popular weekend services where many passengers purchase the Weekend First supplement.

 

[tsr]

That's what they have done on the 166s, pending the seats being changed as the sets go through works for a facelift and installation of a disabled-accessible toilet. However, there isn't that much of a difference in the two types of accommodation on a 166, whereas there is a clear divide in quality between standard and first on both the 180s and HSTs, which I'm sure FGW wants to maintain.

They could always do what Chiltern have done with their 165s - "You can have nice seats in Standard, but only if you're quiet!". The Chiltern Quiet Zones on those units contain rather nicer accommodation than the rest of the space, though it can fill easily!

 

[Goatboy]

Don't CrossCountry have a single First Class coach on their HSTs? That seems to work, and they are still able to offer reasonably priced First Advance fares on off-peak when you book (far) in advance.

No, they don't - the XC HST's have more than one coach of FC. Not that XC FC is really worth the extra money, for me the only benefit of XC FC is not having your face wedged against a door in a vestibule on a Voyager.