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First Greater Glasgow

156478

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3 Aug 2013
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186
Consultations are always pointless.
Tell someone the bus is coming off - what do you expect their response to be.
Politicians shouted like hell back in October, what did they do after? No further support or encouragement of people to use the service.

I can see the same kicking up at the moment about peak 68 being withdrawn next week? The bus was full - albeit a small bus, but still withdrawn.

Times are changing, this is the new reality. Anyone who thinks nothing will change needs to seek help.

Agreed on all points.

The problem is that passenger perception is that on their journey the bus is busy, so why are they not making money on it? Surely If I cant get a seat the company is making money on all of us and laughing in our faces while doing so?

Your average customer has no understanding of the following- and the list is not definitive
Drivers salary, NI contributions, Pension, uniform, sick pay, staff benefits etc.
Depot, depot running costs, fuel, road tax, tyres, electricity, bus washing, cleaners, mechanics, vandalism, wear and tear on buses, purchase of buses, depreciation cost of buses, even ticket roll and blank smartcards (not in Glasgow) is an expense. FirstWeek wallets (big expense in Glasgow). Do the people who empty the cash vaults in the depots and the people who pick the money up to take it to the bank work for free?
Provision of staff break facilities like at Clydebank. Motherwell Travel Shop. Lost Property office.
Bus station parking and departure fees.
Back office and supervisory staff, Inspectors/Service monitoring/Control Room, Customer Services (well Leeds!), marketing,
Pitiful rates of reimbursement of Concession fares (who has forgotten one year the money ran out in Scotland!?), BSOG (which for some reason is seen as a public subsidy)
Traffic congestion (pre pandemic of course)
Even the costs of making variations to services via the TC is an expense that isnt recognised but has to be accounted for.
The accounts for bus operators just now are going to be a total disaster and the consequences will be felt for years afterwards.

The actual figures and costs of running a bus service are rightly or wrongly kept discrete for commercial sensitivity reasons and your average Joe punter can't grasp the wafer thin economics of running a bus service before the pandemic.
All they know is that First are a bunch of greedy capitalist swindlers who have shareholders lining their pockets and laughing all the way to the bank and dont care thar wee Senga cant get her bus from to the Asda at Dumbarton and that First run the daytime service on one route and in the evening its someone else.
It was all lovely when it was publicly owned and for the people and at immense cost to the taxpayer. All the local rags and MSPs are preconditioned now to proclaim First to be a greedy company and totally ignorant of spiralling operating costs and harsh economics and this then fuels some of the sheer nonsense seen on the online local social media posts being shared about cut services.

The 208 in Dumbarton has died a consistent decade of slow cuts and was inevitable. If anything Im amazed it has survived this long. SPT have no option but to tender for the daytime journeys as it already subsidised the evening and Sunday service or the local Labour MSP will create absolute firey hell for SPT until a tender is issued.

The X1, I was actually suprised they even caved to the apparent "demand" and kept it going. While the marketing extended to some vinyls on buses and a standard branded page on the website, they must have lost a fair few quid on the reduced fares which resulted in probably a worse situation than they were in before they originally planned to take it off. First would have budgeted for the service coming off last time and then after caving would have had to budget for their efforts and having to reduce fares on a route haemorraging money. Ive said it before Stagecoach's X74 is there and the train service despite its faults knocks the spots off the X1.

The 31, while socially vital, is a total non starter to operate commercially south of Carmunnock village. It never has been the housing densities in Stewartfield, West Mains and Kirktonholme are too low to make a bus service work commercially and its East Kilbride- a new town that is specifically designed to be low density houses for car owners. Even north of Carmunnock other routes run on top of it and Crosshill and Mount Florida Stations offer a service that is more frequent and faster than the bus and the profitability of that is very questionable.

Rant over!!!
 
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RailUK Forums

awsnews

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13 Mar 2019
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The 208 in Dumbarton has died a consistent decade of slow cuts and was inevitable. If anything Im amazed it has survived this long. SPT have no option but to tender for the daytime journeys as it already subsidised the evening and Sunday service or the local Labour MSP will create absolute firey hell for SPT until a tender is issued.
When McColl's Travel last tried to run on the 208 in competition to First they claimed they lost £15k in three months and that was back in 2016. Obviously First have had it to themselves since but it certainly gives an indication as to the potential revenue available. The problem now is that due to recent events SPT have no money, at the recent Partnership meeting it was reported there could be a deficit of between £12.5m and £20m for the current financial year and until that is resolved they are not going to be able to provide asistance for these services.
 

PaulMc7

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The way I see the cuts being made so far is this:

X1 and 31- Been the same routes more or less for years and left to rot so were obviously going to struggle although with the X1 it's fairly used within Hamilton as the route at that end is fairly long winded. A service with the off peak only being within Hamilton could have been interesting to see how it went.

The 31 hourly would only require 2 buses for the full route but it's either quiet or mobbed although the fact it operates away from where the rest of the buses go in Govanhill and Mount Florida doesn't help that. There's 0 inbetween in passenger numbers when I've used it a fair few times over the years

208-Too small a route to be great considering Brucehill and Silverton are basically a few streets each plus most of the route is covered by the 1B and 206 in particular

If SPT weren't having issues I could have seen funding for all 3 but in the current circumstances it's a non-starter
 
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156478

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186
When McColl's Travel last tried to run on the 208 in competition to First they claimed they lost £15k in three months and that was back in 2016. Obviously First have had it to themselves since but it certainly gives an indication as to the potential revenue available. The problem now is that due to recent events SPT have no money, at the recent Partnership meeting it was reported there could be a deficit of between £12.5m and £20m for the current financial year and until that is resolved they are not going to be able to provide asistance for these services.

In the heyday of their local operations what McColl's did to me was admirable, they really did keep First on their toes. I always held them in high regard as they didn't resort to underhand tactics and competed fairly, it's just a shame that First didnt play as fair and flooded them when McColls had a go on the route to Glasgow and then McColls tried a route to Drumchapel - again flooding them out. It really was David vs Goliath.

But ultimately they sold a loss making local bus operation to McGills who gave it a shot while trying to build presence and failed, again squandering a lot of money in the process.

Dumbarton local services is not great bus operating territory, the High Street has long lost its appeal and looks totally miserable and the retail park with its excellent parking and car access is destroying what remains of the discretionary bus passengers who can choose to drive or take the bus.
 

overthewater

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The X1, I was actually surprised they even caved to the apparent "demand" and kept it going. While the marketing extended to some vinyls on buses and a standard branded page on the website, they must have lost a fair few quid on the reduced fares which resulted in probably a worse situation than they were in before they originally planned to take it off. First would have budgeted for the service coming off last time and then after caving would have had to budget for their efforts and having to reduce fares on a route haemorraging money. Ive said it before Stagecoach's X74 is there and the train service despite its faults knocks the spots off the X1.

It's well documented why the X1 is getting pulled, They cleary WAS a demand since the X1 was still busy with peak passengers ie thats where most of the money was made. The trouble is what do outside those 4-5 busy runs? It's possible another company could operate the peak service only etc.
 
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awsnews

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In the heyday of their local operations what McColl's did to me was admirable, they really did keep First on their toes. I always held them in high regard as they didn't resort to underhand tactics and competed fairly, it's just a shame that First didnt play as fair and flooded them when McColls had a go on the route to Glasgow and then McColls tried a route to Drumchapel - again flooding them out. It really was David vs Goliath.

But ultimately they sold a loss making local bus operation to McGills who gave it a shot while trying to build presence and failed, again squandering a lot of money in the process.

Dumbarton local services is not great bus operating territory, the High Street has long lost its appeal and looks totally miserable and the retail park with its excellent parking and car access is destroying what remains of the discretionary bus passengers who can choose to drive or take the bus.
The Glasgow routes were within the scope of the Scotrail Competition Commission undertakings, First were not going to let another operator cherry pick the best of the revenue whilst they were obligated to run the less rewarding elements of the service. I woiuld suggest it was a battle that First couldn't afford to lose, never been totally convinced it was such a David versus Goliath battle either.
 

PaulMc7

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Its well documented why the X1 is getting pulled, They cleary WAS demand since the X1 was still peak passengers was were most of the money was made. The trouble is what do outside those 4-5 busy runs? Its Possible another company could operate the peak service only etc.

If there was a way to make things work with an off peak service within Hamilton then something could be viable. It covers enough of Hamilton and it's been busy enough from when I've seen it. Seen someone on Facebook suggest extending it out to the likes of Strathaven and Stonehouse but that's definitely not something I'd do
 

overthewater

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If there was a way to make things work with an off peak service within Hamilton then something could be viable. It covers enough of Hamilton and it's been busy enough from when I've seen it. Seen someone on Facebook suggest extending it out to the likes of Strathaven and Stonehouse but that's definitely not something I'd do

If they used the local buses within Hamilton to operate the X1, they would be some 90min gaps in service around peak time since the buses would have to travel up to Glasgow. Also Firsted tried that idea back in 1997? Anyone remember the X2: Stonehouse - Hamilton - Glasgow.
 
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PaulMc7

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IF the used the local buses within Hamilton they would be some 90min gaps in service around peak time since the buses would have to travel up to Glasgow. Also Firsted tried that idea back in 1997? Anyone remember the X2: Stonehouse - Hamilton - Glasgow.

Yeah it's a tough one although I do know First throw in buses from Dumbarton in for the 1s at peaks and the X11 extras at peak too so it's not something they won't ever do. The route sounds vaguely familiar from reading it somewhere but I was 3 in 1997 so can't physically remember it
 
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156478

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3 Aug 2013
Messages
186
If there was a way to make things work with an off peak service within Hamilton then something could be viable. It covers enough of Hamilton and it's been busy enough from when I've seen it. Seen someone on Facebook suggest extending it out to the likes of Strathaven and Stonehouse but that's definitely not something I'd do

Oh deary dear this is what I mean with the Facebook folks and their logic! X1 to Stonehouse and Strathaven, lets extend it further into territory First have no business of being in and hate operating in and throw even more money into a hole! I take it the grand idea is to extend the X1 from its current terminus at High Earnock all the way down to those two isolated villages in the middle of nowhere where they have shown absolutely no interest in decades and where people are attuned to travelling with Whitelaws because thats all they ever know.

If you live in those two places and worked in Glasgow you would drive to Larkhall station and get the train, the 54 by Parks was the right level of service for such small places.
 

lastbus

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Yeah it's a tough one although I do know First throw in buses from Dumbarton in for the 1s at peaks and the X11 extras at peak too so it's not something they won't ever do. The route sounds vaguely familiar from reading it somewhere but I was 3 in 1997 so can't physically remember it
Most of the peak X11s go onto/come off other services like the 18, 21 and 240 to name a few. The difference is the X11 is a busy bus throughout the day.
 

PaulMc7

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Oh deary dear this is what I mean with the Facebook folks and their logic! X1 to Stonehouse and Strathaven, lets extend it further into territory First have no business of being in and hate operating in and throw even more money into a hole! I take it the grand idea is to extend the X1 from its current terminus at High Earnock all the way down to those two isolated villages in the middle of nowhere where they have shown absolutely no interest in decades and where people are attuned to travelling with Whitelaws because thats all they ever know.

If you live in those two places and worked in Glasgow you would drive to Larkhall station and get the train, the 54 by Parks was the right level of service for such small places.

Yeah it was a comment I laughed at for the reasons you've mentioned
 

PaulMc7

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Most of the peak X11s go onto/come off other services like the 18, 21 and 240 to name a few. The difference is the X11 is a busy bus throughout the day.

How does that work out as other services don't drop frequency at peaks? I've seen 18 branded buses on the X11 a few times so always wondered with that one
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Regarding the X1, I can remember it running from Hillhouse to Glasgow via M74 M73 and M8 to Royal Infirmary, then Cathedral Street, left into North Hanover Street, George Square, right turn West Nile Street, right turn Killermont Street (laying over at the bus stop outside the bus station), right turn North Hanover Street, and left turn Cathedral Street to Royal Infirmary to return to Hillhouse.

Monday - Friday peak hours ran as above to George Square, then St Vincent Stret, right turn Elmbank Street (Charing Cross Station), right turn Sauchiehall Street, left turn Rose Street, right turn Renfrew Street, and straight ahead into Killermont Street to rejoin normal line of route.

The Elmbank Street peak routing and the layover at Killermont Street were scrapped when the present eastbound bus lane was introduced, with the X1 revised to run direct to and from the bus station before and after Cathedral Street.
 

156478

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Yeah it was a comment I laughed at for the reasons you've mentioned

I've seen one X1 related comment on facebook that particularly gave me a laugh....

"to which political party is Firstgroup Transport a main donor?" which then continued with the usual allegations of profiteering.

Meanwhile from the FirstGroup annual report of 2019, give the answer- its none of them .....
"political donations are not a focus of our engagement with government. In the UK we do not make poltical donations"
 

RomeoCharlie71

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Meanwhile from the FirstGroup annual report of 2019, give the answer- its none of them .....
"political donations are not a focus of our engagement with government. In the UK we do not make poltical donations"
...but the passengers know best, don't they? ;):rolleyes:
 

PaulMc7

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I've seen one X1 related comment on facebook that particularly gave me a laugh....

"to which political party is Firstgroup Transport a main donor?" which then continued with the usual allegations of profiteering.

Meanwhile from the FirstGroup annual report of 2019, give the answer- its none of them .....
"political donations are not a focus of our engagement with government. In the UK we do not make poltical donations"

Think I seen that one too. There's definitely a right for people to be annoyed at the cut but some of the responses have been pretty OTT
 

156478

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Think I seen that one too. There's definitely a right for people to be annoyed at the cut but some of the responses have been pretty OTT

It's very justified why people are very annoyed, but First should have just went for the jugular and cut it when they wanted to cut it. Giving folk a glimmer of hope and then taking it away with all the stuff going on just now when we are heading back to normal is not an easy pill to swallow and people are quite rightly spitting feathers.

Seeing what people have wrote on Social Media I don't even see the aspirations of another operator stepping in. No one was ready to the knight in shining armour when First originally wanted to take it off. None of the established Lanarkshire independants will touch a service thats such a resource drain when they are struggling to survive as it is.

Maybe Stagecoach Glasgow could throw out a 0725 Hamilton to Glasgow dupe and a 1645 return to Hamilton but the dead running to cover this would kill any covering of its costs. I dont even see existing X74s being overcrowded from Hamilton to Glasgow and back for the long forseeable future.

No one will want to pay for First to take them to the bus station and then pay for Stagecoach to take them into Glasgow or pay over the odds for a Zonecard to travel on everything and those that will take a 255, 263 or a 267 to Glasgow will soon tire of the very long journey to Glasgow ahead of them.

A lot of people will want to work from home as much as possible as their companies have given them the equipment to do so and the economy is burst for a good while yet.

Grim times.
 

PaulMc7

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It's very justified why people are very annoyed, but First should have just went for the jugular and cut it when they wanted to cut it. Giving folk a glimmer of hope and then taking it away with all the stuff going on just now when we are heading back to normal is not an easy pill to swallow and people are quite rightly spitting feathers.

Seeing what people have wrote on Social Media I don't even see the aspirations of another operator stepping in. No one was ready to the knight in shining armour when First originally wanted to take it off. None of the established Lanarkshire independants will touch a service thats such a resource drain when they are struggling to survive as it is.

Maybe Stagecoach Glasgow could throw out a 0725 Hamilton to Glasgow dupe and a 1645 return to Hamilton but the dead running to cover this would kill any covering of its costs. I dont even see existing X74s being overcrowded from Hamilton to Glasgow and back for the long forseeable future.

No one will want to pay for First to take them to the bus station and then pay for Stagecoach to take them into Glasgow or pay over the odds for a Zonecard to travel on everything and those that will take a 255, 263 or a 267 to Glasgow will soon tire of the very long journey to Glasgow ahead of them.

A lot of people will want to work from home as much as possible as their companies have given them the equipment to do so and the economy is burst for a good while yet.

Grim times.

Yeah I've never really seen the X74 busy at all tbh although I think part of that is down to the fact that all of the other routes by bus to Glasgow are First buses plus you'd need to be right in the town centre to get it. The train is stupidly expensive at peaks compared to the bus too so its going to be a mess there. First have been cutting away for a few years at routes outside of Hamilton town centre though tbh. 255, 263 and 267 all used to go beyond Hamilton town centre and I'm surprised the 227 and 229 aren't under too much threat given the levels they've been reduced to during lockdown. Think it's just an area that needs a complete reboot in terms of buses.

It's going to be messy for a while so too so anything could happen really.

Can see the customer treatment coming back to really bite though if fuel costs for cars stay low for long enough. It's not viable for me to get a car but I know I was in an area with a shaky bus service now and I wasn't in the worst financial position it would be so tempting to get a car because it wouldn't be clear how I'd get around
 

Jordan Adam

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Yeah I've never really seen the X74 busy at all tbh although I think part of that is down to the fact that all of the other routes by bus to Glasgow are First buses plus you'd need to be right in the town centre to get it. The train is stupidly expensive at peaks compared to the bus too so its going to be a mess there. First have been cutting away for a few years at routes outside of Hamilton town centre though tbh. 255, 263 and 267 all used to go beyond Hamilton town centre and I'm surprised the 227 and 229 aren't under too much threat given the levels they've been reduced to during lockdown. Think it's just an area that needs a complete reboot in terms of buses.

It's going to be messy for a while so too so anything could happen really.

Can see the customer treatment coming back to really bite though if fuel costs for cars stay low for long enough. It's not viable for me to get a car but I know I was in an area with a shaky bus service now and I wasn't in the worst financial position it would be so tempting to get a car because it wouldn't be clear how I'd get around

Have you actually ever used the X74? If it was "never really busy at all" then Stagecoach wouldn't invest high capacity coaches for it.
 

PaulMc7

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Have you actually ever used the X74? If it was "never really busy at all" then Stagecoach wouldn't invest high capacity coaches for it.

I have no reason to get the X74 because I'd need to get a first bus to get into the city centre to get it so it makes zero sense from a financial sense to use it plus I said I haven't seen it busy not that it's never busy...
 

lastbus

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Yeah I've never really seen the X74 busy at all tbh although I think part of that is down to the fact that all of the other routes by bus to Glasgow are First buses plus you'd need to be right in the town centre to get it. The train is stupidly expensive at peaks compared to the bus too so its going to be a mess there. First have been cutting away for a few years at routes outside of Hamilton town centre though tbh. 255, 263 and 267 all used to go beyond Hamilton town centre and I'm surprised the 227 and 229 aren't under too much threat given the levels they've been reduced to during lockdown. Think it's just an area that needs a complete reboot in terms of buses.

It's going to be messy for a while so too so anything could happen really.

Can see the customer treatment coming back to really bite though if fuel costs for cars stay low for long enough. It's not viable for me to get a car but I know I was in an area with a shaky bus service now and I wasn't in the worst financial position it would be so tempting to get a car because it wouldn't be clear how I'd get around
The 267 was split at Hamilton with service 266 for reliability purposes as was the 255 originally and the 254 ran from Hamilton to newarthill before that was cut back to Motherwell as the Motherwell to Hamilton corridor is well bussed with alternatives.
 

ScotRail158725

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How does that work out as other services don't drop frequency at peaks? I've seen 18 branded buses on the X11 a few times so always wondered with that one
only way i could see that happening is buses come out of Blantyre just before peak go to the 18/21/240s terminus and then do an 18/21/240 into town then back out on whatever service they go onto
 

PaulMc7

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only way i could see that happening is buses come out of Blantyre just before peak go to the 18/21/240s terminus and then do an 18/21/240 into town then back out on whatever service they go onto

Yeah possibly. Even with that the 21 short workings stop from Cathkin towards town before the frequency drops out of Glasgow so there's still a shortage meaning more would need to be sent in for that although Caley is about 10 mins from Cochrane Street so it's not as bad if that's where they come from. Not as sure about the 18 and 240 though
 

lastbus

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How does that work out as other services don't drop frequency at peaks? I've seen 18 branded buses on the X11 a few times so always wondered with that one
The bus does an X11 into town then goes empty to Greenhills to do an 18 and the other one goes to Cathkin to start a 21. The last X11 at night pre Covid was operated by a 240 board. Caledonia do 18s and 21s at peak times to allow the services to maintain frequency.
 

PaulMc7

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The bus does an X11 into town then goes empty to Greenhills to do an 18 and the other one goes to Cathkin to start a 21. The last X11 at night pre Covid was operated by a 240 board. Caledonia do 18s and 21s at peak times to allow the services to maintain frequency.

2nd part of that makes great sense but a dead run out to Greenhills seems like a lot of wasted mileage. Out to Cathkin isn't as bad but I wouldn't say that's great either
 

Busman84

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If the X1 is as busy as people say it is then it can operate during peaks they can still run it as a peak service only similar to the X78 service.
 

PaulMc7

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If the X1 is as busy as people say it is then it can operate during peaks they can still run it as a peak service only similar to the X78 service.

The X78 is only 2 buses in the morning and 1 in the evening and I think that's where the problem with an X1 peak service could be. Would need a few buses each way plus sending them from Blantyre into Glasgow would rack up mileage. It's not as bad in the morning to Hillhouse from Blantyre though plus if it came to it would there be any harm in running extra 263s/267s to Blantyre to get them back into the depot? Maybe not but it's a tough one. Even running buses into Glasgow from Blantyre as 263s/267s for the evening peak could be okay especially for the 267 through Cambuslang and Rutherglen but driver shifts would play a part etc
 

route101

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2nd part of that makes great sense but a dead run out to Greenhills seems like a lot of wasted mileage. Out to Cathkin isn't as bad but I wouldn't say that's great either

Yeah , dont get why it couldnt run a service from town to East Kilbride (EK).
 
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route101

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The X78 is only 2 buses in the morning and 1 in the evening and I think that's where the problem with an X1 peak service could be. Would need a few buses each way plus sending them from Blantyre into Glasgow would rack up mileage. It's not as bad in the morning to Hillhouse from Blantyre though plus if it came to it would there be any harm in running extra 263s/267s to Blantyre to get them back into the depot? Maybe not but it's a tough one. Even running buses into Glasgow from Blantyre as 263s/267s for the evening peak could be okay especially for the 267 through Cambuslang and Rutherglen but driver shifts would play a part etc

I guess the X78 is likley to be dropped.
 

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