First Group: General Discussion

[Schnellzug]

Heard a couple of drivers chatting this morning on my way to work today (one Arriva & one First). Their banter suggested both Chester & Rock Ferry depot's have been sold & at least one of the (Rock Ferry) may have passed to Stagecoach?

The First driver also mentioned that no official announcement was to be made until after the Olympic Games (for some reason).

i expect because Frist have the contact for the Prestigious Olympic shuttle work, and to announce that they were selling off parts would be Unprestigious.

 

[overthewater]

The question I was asking was whether Cumbernauld depot operated the Kirkentilloch - Glasgow services (or whether Cumbernauld depot only ran services that served Cumbernauld)?

Stagecoach clearly run a share of the Cumbernauld - Glasgow services (including their coaches from Fife).

Yes Cumbernauld does operate the Kirkentilloch routes

 

[tbtc]

Yes Cumbernauld does operate the Kirkentilloch routes

Thanks

 

[Skimble19]

Yeah OK I'm happy to stand corrected on a lot of these points. I still think Stagecoach are cheating themselves out of custom in Northampton and Rugby through their fares policies. Also I would say that Aylesbury has been an Arriva monopoly for the last decade. The only other operators are independents on contract routes - the only competition is the 300/321.

Rugby maybe could be better contrasted with Bedford. The history really shouldn't matter, it should just be a question of finding the fare that hits that balance between being cheap enough that large numbers are happy to pay it and expensive enough to meet the operating costs. I think at the moment SC lose vast numbers of passengers through the fares in Northants and Rugby.

If anyone does have any info on my above question about Uno that'd be appreciated a lot (somewhat more on topic, I apologise for taking things a bit off).

SC in bedford(shire) are losing massive amounts of traffic due to the way they're operating. Take the Mars routes, it started by cutting off the Biggleswade to Hitchin section (now "run" by centrebus), followed by the scrapping of the brand and the mysterious appearance of the older buses that were replaced by the Mars buses in the first place!

Then there's the fares, talk about pricing everyone off their services. The majority of people who use them now are pensioners, nobody else is daft enough to pay.

 

[mbonwick]

Take that issue up with the council who pulled the funding for the routes.

 

[overthewater]

Better still complain to/about the Old council, and there outstandingly stupid way there spent the grant money there got from Central government in 2000 and then used it to compete with commercial stagecoach routes and when said funding was gone pulled off the route, but by that time damaged was done to the stagecoach routes

 

[tbtc]

SC in bedford(shire) are losing massive amounts of traffic due to the way they're operating. Take the Mars routes, it started by cutting off the Biggleswade to Hitchin section (now "run" by centrebus), followed by the scrapping of the brand and the mysterious appearance of the older buses that were replaced by the Mars buses in the first place!

Then there's the fares, talk about pricing everyone off their services. The majority of people who use them now are pensioners, nobody else is daft enough to pay.

Take that issue up with the council who pulled the funding for the routes.

Better still complain to/about the Old council, and there outstandingly stupid way there spent the grant money there got from Central government in 2000 and then used it to compete with commercial stagecoach routes and when said funding was gone pulled off the route, but by that time damaged was done to the stagecoach routes

As ever the operator gets the blame, even when it's clearly not their fault

 

[MK Tom]

I always understood that the loss of the Blue Solos and all of Bedford's other cool routes was something that followed the breakup of Bedfordshire into UAs and was entirely the fault of the council. Whatever I may say about Stagecoach in Northampton with regard to fares, I can't fault SC as an operator of services and vehicles and Bedford certainly gets a good service from them compared to many places of similar size and significance.

 

[A0wen]

SC in bedford(shire) are losing massive amounts of traffic due to the way they're operating. Take the Mars routes, it started by cutting off the Biggleswade to Hitchin section (now "run" by centrebus), followed by the scrapping of the brand and the mysterious appearance of the older buses that were replaced by the Mars buses in the first place!

Then there's the fares, talk about pricing everyone off their services. The majority of people who use them now are pensioners, nobody else is daft enough to pay.

I don't believe the loadings between Hitchin and Biggleswade will be that great - the buses go all over the place and take forever, when compared to 2 stops on the train - a far better journey.

 

[Skimble19]

They do however serve a fair amount of places between there that don't have stations, and were they to properly attempt to link with at least some trains at Biggleswade and Hitchin stations, loadings could be a lot better.

I always understood that the loss of the Blue Solos and all of Bedford's other cool routes was something that followed the breakup of Bedfordshire into UAs and was entirely the fault of the council. Whatever I may say about Stagecoach in Northampton with regard to fares, I can't fault SC as an operator of services and vehicles and Bedford certainly gets a good service from them compared to many places of similar size and significance.

I didn't even realise they'd gone! Did they go when they got rid of the rest of the branding?

 

[MCW]

right.

I have been in touch with a very high up person in one of the companies which serve in Northamptonshire on the subject, I will not disclose the company or the person. However from the discussion which was had via email, I can deduce that is seems that first will either just de-register the routes and sell off the depot and the buses by normal disposal channels. that's pretty much it.

 

[mbonwick]

That route would certainly explain the crap currently being moved in.

I can't see Stagecoach wanting the fleet, but they'll take the depot given half a chance!

 

[overthewater]

right.

I have been in touch with a very high up person in one of the companies which serve in Northamptonshire on the subject, I will not disclose the company or the person. However from the discussion which was had via email, I can deduce that is seems that first will either just de-register the routes and sell off the depot and the buses by normal disposal channels. that's pretty much it.

I did predict something like this. I take it this will all happen once the London finished with everyone spare buses.

 

[tbtc]

Has anyone got a link to a Northampton fleetlist?

 

[A0wen]

That route would certainly explain the crap currently being moved in.

I can't see Stagecoach wanting the fleet, but they'll take the depot given half a chance!

I very much doubt they'll want the depot - it's too big for their requirements even if they took over First's routes.

They've got all the engineering facilities they need at Rothersthorpe Road, it's just vehicle parking they're going to be looking for once Greyfriars goes.

First's depot is prime for redevlopment - it's a decent sized plot in a non-industrial area, so I'd probably bet on it ending up as housing. I doubt it's listed in any meaningful sense.

Agree with the fleet that First seem to be deploying to Northampton won't be of interest, totally non-standard to Stagecoach. Not sure any other likely purchaser is going to be that interested in them either.

 

[mbonwick]

So what if its oversized?
It makes sense for Megabus to move to Northampton from Rugby if possible as its closer to M1 etc.

Yes Stagecoach will only need parking - but its much easier to have engineering in the same place as well so an existing depot is ideal.

 

[robertclark125]

Agree with mbonwick, if the facilities are better, take them!

 

[A0wen]

So what if its oversized?
It makes sense for Megabus to move to Northampton from Rugby if possible as its closer to M1 etc.

Yes Stagecoach will only need parking - but its much easier to have engineering in the same place as well so an existing depot is ideal.

The fact it is too big for what Stagecoach need means it will cost more than necessaryand the only way to cover that will be increase prices or cut costs.

The facilities don't look to be in particularly good condition either, so why buy something which isn't what they need or want?

There is also a tendency to site depots away from housing areas owing to noise and pollution complaints. And being tucked away on an industrial estate tends to be out of the way of "casual" vandals, as well as being cheaper.

On the Megabus comment, Rugby to the M1 is no real distance and Rugby is closer to the M6, M42 and Birmingham, so not sure how or why Stagecoach would benefit by moving that away from Rugby?

 

[Volvodart]

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/devon_cornwall/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=6551&conf=0

North Devon Business Update

Monday 23 July 2012

First Devon and Cornwall today (23 July 2012) announced plans to discontinue its bus services in the North Devon area, including closure of the Barnstaple depot. The company also confirmed that it has started the collective consultation process with trade unions on the possibility of redundancies.

Firsts bus services in North Devon have underperformed for a number of years, despite the introduction of a variety of marketing and promotional initiatives. The company is now faced with extra cost pressures due to the economic climate and cuts in external funding and routes are now being discontinued in order to ensure the long term sustainability of operations elsewhere.

A range of alternative options including the potential sale and transfer of employees and assets to Stagecoach Group plc were fully explored. That option will no longer go ahead following the Office of Fair Trading's announcement on 10 July that it was referring the case to the Competition Commission.

Giles Fearnley, FirstGroup Managing Director, UK Bus, said: "We understand that this news will be distressing for employees affected by the decision and that it will similarly cause our customers in the area some concern. We apologise and will be supporting affected employees over the coming months, as well as working with Devon County Council on the future of bus services in the area. We will give customers ample notice of the date that services will cease to operate in North Devon.

"We will be working hard to minimise the extent of redundancies, trying to redeploy people where possible. We would like to take the opportunity to stress that the decision to close the North Devon operation is a business driven one and does not reflect on the effort or individual performance of the employees in North Devon.

"We are progressing our strategy to reposition and rebalance our UK Bus portfolio to restore operating margins and help facilitate improved growth and returns. The decision by the Office of Fair Trading to refer our proposed sale of our North Devon operations, where we had a uniquely high degree of overlap with Stagecoach, was disappointing. We are confident, however, of future successful transactions in the coming months as a number of potential bidders exist in the markets where we have identified other businesses for disposal.'

First Devon and Cornwall today (July 23) began its official consultation process with affected staff. This will include offering opportunities in other areas. The timescale for closing the business will be confirmed once the consultation with the affected employees has been completed.



Notes to editors

� A timescale will be confirmed in due course.

� The North Devon business comprises of the depot facility in Barnstaple, a fleet of around 30 vehicles and ten routes (Services 1, 2, 3, 5/5C, 8 (operates summer only) 30/30C, 31, 32, X7 and X9). The routes cover Appledore, Barnstaple, Bideford, Braunton, Bude, Coombe Martin, Fremington, Ilfracombe, South Molton, Swimbridge, Westward Ho! and Woolacombe.

� The decision regarding the North Devon business does not affect any other part of the First Devon and Cornwall business.

 

[starrymarkb]

Well I thought it would happen. Suspect Stagecoach will take on a few of the staff who are losing their jobs.

 

[tbtc]

Cheers for the link.

The company is now faced with extra cost pressures due to the economic climate

I know its easy to be an armchair expert, but bus companies (and TOCs too) should really be looking at the increases in fuel prices to encourage *more* passengers - as it makes a bus (or train) more competitive with private cars.

A range of alternative options including the potential sale and transfer of employees and assets to Stagecoach Group plc were fully explored. That option will no longer go ahead following the Office of Fair Trading's announcement on 10 July that it was referring the case to the Competition Commission

So the OFT/ Competition Commission has cost First Group shareholders the best part of three million quid? (if the figure here is anything to go by http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/aims-sell-bus-operations-pound-2-8m/story-15520390-detail/story.html).

Giving up in north Devon (as in East Lothian and Midlothian) won't get First the the tens of millions that they were looking for in sell-offs.

 

[anthony263]

I wouldnt be surprised to see Stagecoach taking on the members of staff and regiserting some routes in the area.

In this respect i think the OFT made the wrong decision and sadly we can see where it has led too.

 

[overthewater]

I bet first will try to get £3million for the depot..., so when will this happen in Northampton?

 

[aylesbury]

The gov agencies seem to be poking thier noses into the sell off so things will drag on for a while.

 

[A0wen]

Cheers for the link.

I know its easy to be an armchair expert, but bus companies (and TOCs too) should really be looking at the increases in fuel prices to encourage *more* passengers - as it makes a bus (or train) more competitive with private cars.

Problem is that their own overheads have been going up as a result of the fuel price increases - so they're options are a bit limited.

So the OFT/ Competition Commission has cost First Group shareholders the best part of three million quid? (if the figure here is anything to go by http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/aims-sell-bus-operations-pound-2-8m/story-15520390-detail/story.html).

Well, the OFT / CC are there to protect the best interests of consumers and ensure monopoly scenarios don't arise which is against the consumer's interests. They can only operate within a specific legal framework which is defined by government. Having said that, I feel if the CC had agreed to Stagecoach taking over there would be no shortage of posters on this board bleating about the inadequacy and toothlessness of the CC / OFT and how they'd just given First and Stagecoach what they wanted..........

Giving up in north Devon (as in East Lothian and Midlothian) won't get First the the tens of millions that they were looking for in sell-offs.

I suspect it's more about stemming losses than raising revenue. If Northampton's anything to go by, the only way First could turn it around would be by investing in the operation - given they've not bothered much over the last 5 years, in Northampton's case, customers have voted with their feet and Stagecoach have stepped up by investing in new vehicles and being highly competitive. Which has hit First's revenue still further.

 

[tbtc]

I bet first will try to get £3million for the depot..., so when will this happen in Northampton?

There's no reason for anyone to pay £3m for the depot, now its not a going concern - its a fire sale

Problem is that their own overheads have been going up as a result of the fuel price increases - so they're options are a bit limited

Their fuel increases have gone up, but that's just a percentage of their overall cost base (wages haven't gone up by anything like as much). Whereas the fuel costs are being passed onto private drivers too, so are having a much bigger impact on the cost of driving a car. This could be an opportunity for public transport, rather than A Bad Thing.

Well, the OFT / CC are there to protect the best interests of consumers and ensure monopoly scenarios don't arise which is against the consumer's interests. They can only operate within a specific legal framework which is defined by government. Having said that, I feel if the CC had agreed to Stagecoach taking over there would be no shortage of posters on this board bleating about the inadequacy and toothlessness of the CC / OFT and how they'd just given First and Stagecoach what they wanted..........

I'm all for the CC/ OFT protecting customers by preventing monopoly situations from developing, but it's got to be a pretty big area to call it a "monopoly" (given that most routes in the UK only have one operator, most towns can only sustain one big company).

First owning the former Lowland Scottish/ Eastern Scottish/ Midland Scottish/ Central Scottish/ Kelvin Scottish/ Strathclyde Buses operations in central belt Scotland was a monopoly in a significantly large area.

But northern Devon? Not big enough to cause competition issues for me.

I suspect it's more about stemming losses than raising revenue. If Northampton's anything to go by, the only way First could turn it around would be by investing in the operation - given they've not bothered much over the last 5 years, in Northampton's case, customers have voted with their feet and Stagecoach have stepped up by investing in new vehicles and being highly competitive. Which has hit First's revenue still further.

They started this off by talking about raising tens of millions for shareholders - if they are just going to dump unprofitable areas then that's a whole different tactic.

 

[A0wen]

I'm all for the CC/ OFT protecting customers by preventing monopoly situations from developing, but it's got to be a pretty big area to call it a "monopoly" (given that most routes in the UK only have one operator, most towns can only sustain one big company).

First owning the former Lowland Scottish/ Eastern Scottish/ Midland Scottish/ Central Scottish/ Kelvin Scottish/ Strathclyde Buses operations in central belt Scotland was a monopoly in a significantly large area.

But northern Devon? Not big enough to cause competition issues for me.

I suspect the difference is that if First had been allowed to sell North Devon to Stagecoach, then Stagecoach would have held a monopoly position - which the CC would have allowed to come about, where presently there is competition between the two operators.

The Scottish example is very different - they probably weren't considered as a single 'entity', the geographic area is huge, so whilst First taking over certain of those operators wouldn't have been a 'monopoly' issue as there would have been competition, the takeover of all of them was considered on their local merits e.g. why would the takeover of Lowland be relevant to the takeover of Midland Scottish? The two had very different local markets with different competition levels.

 

[overthewater]

I suspect the difference is that if First had been allowed to sell North Devon to Stagecoach, then Stagecoach would have held a monopoly position - which the CC would have allowed to come about, where presently there is competition between the two operators.

The Scottish example is very different - they probably weren't considered as a single 'entity', the geographic area is huge, so whilst First taking over certain of those operators wouldn't have been a 'monopoly' issue as there would have been competition, the takeover of all of them was considered on their local merits e.g. why would the takeover of Lowland be relevant to the takeover of Midland Scottish? The two had very different local markets with different competition levels.

In 1997 First were told to sell off parts of Midland and Strathclyde, but somehow managed to get out off doing so.

 

[tbtc]

I suspect the difference is that if First had been allowed to sell North Devon to Stagecoach, then Stagecoach would have held a monopoly position - which the CC would have allowed to come about, where presently there is competition between the two operators.

The Scottish example is very different - they probably weren't considered as a single 'entity', the geographic area is huge, so whilst First taking over certain of those operators wouldn't have been a 'monopoly' issue as there would have been competition, the takeover of all of them was considered on their local merits e.g. why would the takeover of Lowland be relevant to the takeover of Midland Scottish? The two had very different local markets with different competition levels.

Is North Devon really a big enough bus market to worry the competition people though?

I could understand if First were to sell to Stagecoach in Manchester or Sheffield or Glasgow (cities where they both have operations).

 

[A0wen]

Is North Devon really a big enough bus market to worry the competition people though?

I could understand if First were to sell to Stagecoach in Manchester or Sheffield or Glasgow (cities where they both have operations).

Size of the market isn't generally relevant, nor for that matter is the viability of the market. The CC / OFT usually work on the basis that if there are two companies in the same market competing, if one tries to sell out to the other, that's creating a monopoly which unless it can be proved is in the consumer's interest, will be blocked.