First Group: General Discussion

[the101]

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Is it just my imagination or is Giles Fearnley surprisingly quiet of late ?

Perhaps he just doesn't have anything to say at the moment. To give him his due, when he does speak it is normally worth listening to; there is a Northern Bus Summit in Manchester next week, so given the franchising shenanigans in the north maybe he will appear at that.

 

[Robertj21a]

Perhaps he just doesn't have anything to say at the moment. To give him his due, when he does speak it is normally worth listening to; there is a Northern Bus Summit in Manchester next week, so given the franchising shenanigans in the north maybe he will appear at that.

Yes, I hope he does. As you say, he is usually worth listening to. Of course, he's probably been kept quite busy anyway.....

 

[Baxenden Bank]

You can knock Cornwall off that list. They've said they're don't intend to pursue it.
https://www.transportxtra.com/publi...e-don-t-plan-to-franchise-buses-says-cornwall

As, I suspect, will many other councils when they realise how much it will cost them to properly fund their ambitions, and that the buck will stop with them if they have to cut services to the level of resources actually available! At the moment, they can cut the ENCTS re-imbursement rate without any comeback. It simply looks like the operator is cutting services (or going bust in various locations) without the underlying factors being presented to the public.

Whilst I have many criticisms of De-regulation, I don't remember the bus business prior to 1986 being all that innovative, passenger friendly, or being a period of massive growth in passenger numbers!
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Have you seen the state of its operation and how much money is needed to bring it up to anything above the mode of last resort? Interest will be lost by the powers that be sooner or later, or in an extreme situation the whole lot could be ceded to D&G, although D&G is certainly not without its faults.

The operation has improved - some new buses, some very recent hand-me-downs. Still a fair amount of scrap running around though.

I understand that First Potteries is now in profit, albeit below required profit levels. On the back of substantial cuts in services / pvr vehicle requirements though which themselves might have an impact yet to be felt if passengers drift away, thus continuing a cycle of decline / more cuts.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As, I suspect, will many other councils when they realise how much it will cost them to properly fund their ambitions, and that the buck will stop with them if they have to cut services to the level of resources actually available! At the moment, they can cut the ENCTS re-imbursement rate without any comeback. It simply looks like the operator is cutting services (or going bust in various locations) without the underlying factors being presented to the public.

Whilst I have many criticisms of De-regulation, I don't remember the bus business prior to 1986 being all that innovative, passenger friendly, or being a period of massive growth in passenger numbers!
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The operation has improved - some new buses, some very recent hand-me-downs. Still a fair amount of scrap running around though.

I understand that First Potteries is now in profit, albeit below required profit levels. On the back of substantial cuts in services / pvr vehicle requirements though which themselves might have an impact yet to be felt if passengers drift away, thus continuing a cycle of decline / more cuts.

First Potteries is a bit of an odd story....

There are some what would appear to be plus points - it would seem to be good operating territory (though Arriva couldn't make it pay). Also, Nigel Eggleton is one of those lifelong bus men, very experienced and with a good record at places like Oxford Bus, Arriva Shires, and Transdev Lancashire.

That said, the local authority cuts have hit it. There have also been mistakes with the big recast then requiring further changes and then a further trimming and closing of Newcastle depot, and then an opening of an outstation. You wonder if perhaps the local team (as Nigel can't be in 3 places at once) aren't as sharp as they might be? That might also be reflected in some of the reports of service quality etc

However, there is also the issue of chronic underinvestment over many, many years. The OmniCities were the last substantial new vehicle intake and much of the fleet was absolutely archaic. Running G reg Olympians until a couple of years ago, a raft of absolutely hammered Scania single deckers and some fairly peachy Darts to boot.

However, the first aim was to stabilise the business and achieve DDA compliance and that's probably now being done. Will Potteries get a slew of new kit next year? Perhaps not but with some further judicious cascades and the odd bit of new fleet, maybe that fleet profile might just start to come down to somewhere nearer the target?

ps I don't know Mr Eggleton - met him a couple of times and seems a nice gent!

 

[Robertj21a]

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I think a big problem for First Potteries is that the travelling public in that area have been messed around by First for so very many years that the company has acquired a very poor reputation. The terrible state of the fleet until quite recently tended to confirm that there was little real interest by management in offering anything like a quality product.

Nigel Eggleton is on record some months ago saying that Potteries is a difficult area and that (at that time) the future didn't look too promising. It will be interesting to see what progress is made now that Newcastle has closed and the pvr reduced.

 

[the101]

You wonder if perhaps the local team (as Nigel can't be in 3 places at once) aren't as sharp as they might be? That might also be reflected in some of the reports of service quality etc...

It would appear that this is the case.

The fleet woes at Potteries are well known, and even now there is at least one Dart and one or two Scanias running around which have passed their 18th birthdays and look (and sound) every day of it.

Even those single-deckers which were repainted into Cherry livery are in some cases looking rough thanks to the usual problem of unrepaired damage, while the first E300 has arrived from Wyvern recently, complete with threadbare seats and awful-looking paintwork. Of course, it may have been a good idea for the E300s to have been repainted and retrimmed before entering service, but such is the mad rush now to satisfy PSVAR (despite having had nearly 15 years' notice of the 1 January 2016 date) that there is now no time to do so.

The other major problem (as I have mentioned before) is that there is a core of drivers who do as they please, seemingly without fear of any comeback from management. First could buy 150 new StreetDecks for Potteries if they wanted, but as long as there are ****-takers driving them and generating animosity from passengers nothing will ever change and it will remain a transport choice of last resort, as it is at the moment.

 

[overthewater]

AND NOW its time for Account details for First Scotland EAST:

Muss and Livingston Depot: Loses have been reduced,but so has the turnover.... but it still making a losses, and you have wonder why the rumors keep on coming...

Up to March 2015:

Turnover: £ 13,366000 IN 2014: 14,794
Oper costs: £ 15,050000 IN 2014: 17,067
Loses: £ 1,684000 IN 2014: 2,273

Midland Bluebird; Falkirk, Stirlingshire and the borders.

ITS IN PROFIT a Tiny profit but its a good start, since it made a loses last year. Hooray

Turnover: £ 29,901000
Oper costs: £ 29,697000
Profit: £ 204'000

 

[Volvodart]

I know the reason for the rumours to keep on coming!!

 

[overthewater]

And yet for what? X number of years straight; that side of the company has NEVER made money. Lets face facts here, its a losing battle.

 

[Volvodart]

You are forgetting the large cuts in first half of 2015 and the cutting of the scotrail contract related services that they were required to run. Anyway, it makes there application to cancel the Strathclyde Buses acquisition undertakings look better.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I know the reason for the rumours to keep on coming!!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

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I think a big problem for First Potteries is that the travelling public in that area have been messed around by First for so very many years that the company has acquired a very poor reputation. The terrible state of the fleet until quite recently tended to confirm that there was little real interest by management in offering anything like a quality product.

Nigel Eggleton is on record some months ago saying that Potteries is a difficult area and that (at that time) the future didn't look too promising. It will be interesting to see what progress is made now that Newcastle has closed and the pvr reduced.

I entirely agree with the first paragraph. As I posted a while back, it felt as though they wanted the company to fail. Compile a list of the things you need to do to make a company fail, then compare it to how things were (for a number of years, not just short term) in The Potteries.

I'll make a start; poor quality buses (tick), unreliable services (tick), prices increased well above inflation (tick).

As for Mr Eggletons comments that it is a difficult area, I worry that a conurbation of 360,000 people cannot support (at least) one profitable bus company!

I note that they have now decided to split one of the convoluted, artificially created for management convenience, long routes (the 3 service) - as a result of unreliability issues. Well, perhaps that potential issue was put to them as part of their sham consultation on the new network in 2014 but they went ahead regardless. Wonder how many customers they have lost in the meantime?

Now, please separate out the artificially linked services serving Newcastle (linked as a result of the depot closure and artificial as it exists merely to give management an easy ride). There is no benefit to the travelling public of linking four wholly independent routes (2, 22, 72 and 97). They are not advertised as through services, so there is no benefit for passengers who may want to connect between those services, there is no operational benefit as exactly the same number of buses are required, and delays on one service impacts on the other services which the average punter simply cannot understand. As now recognised with splitting the 3.

"All the buses are on the road, there is nothing we can do about it".

"Count them all out of the depot in the morning then wash your hands until drivers start coming in (late) for their rest breaks".

 

[Robertj21a]

I entirely agree with the first paragraph. As I posted a while back, it felt as though they wanted the company to fail. Compile a list of the things you need to do to make a company fail, then compare it to how things were (for a number of years, not just short term) in The Potteries.

I'll make a start; poor quality buses (tick), unreliable services (tick), prices increased well above inflation (tick).

As for Mr Eggletons comments that it is a difficult area, I worry that a conurbation of 360,000 people cannot support (at least) one profitable bus company!

I note that they have now decided to split one of the convoluted, artificially created for management convenience, long routes (the 3 service) - as a result of unreliability issues. Well, perhaps that potential issue was put to them as part of their sham consultation on the new network in 2014 but they went ahead regardless. Wonder how many customers they have lost in the meantime?

Now, please separate out the artificially linked services serving Newcastle (linked as a result of the depot closure and artificial as it exists merely to give management an easy ride). There is no benefit to the travelling public of linking four wholly independent routes (2, 22, 72 and 97). They are not advertised as through services, so there is no benefit for passengers who may want to connect between those services, there is no operational benefit as exactly the same number of buses are required, and delays on one service impacts on the other services which the average punter simply cannot understand. As now recognised with splitting the 3.

"All the buses are on the road, there is nothing we can do about it".

"Count them all out of the depot in the morning then wash your hands until drivers start coming in (late) for their rest breaks".

I believe that the split of the 3 is to enable the 25 Keele section to get the deckers that are now being transferred from Leicester.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I believe that the split of the 3 is to enable the 25 Keele section to get the deckers that are now being transferred from Leicester.

That would make sense, and I don't disagree with you, but that is not the reason given by First. Doing something sensible, rather than what is merely operationally convenient, will be a novel departure for them. Perhaps it may catch on.

Why are you changing this service?

We recognise that the reliability of service 3 has been below the standards expected by our customers and that we strive to deliver.

We have looked closely at this service to ensure we provide a more reliable service for all customers. The main reason for delays on service 3 has been the length of the journey & the number of unavoidable delays (such as roadworks) we are experiencing. When buses are delayed on one part of the route, this has a considerable knock-on effect throughout the journey.

What is changing?

Service 3 will be split into two services:
•Service 3, which will operate between Hanley & Burslem, Tunstall, Kidsgrove, Crewe/Talke
•Service 25, which will operate between Hanley & Stoke, Royal Stoke University Hospital, Newcastle and Keele
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By splitting the service into shorter routes this will allow us to more effectively manage delays. It also means, for example, if there are delays in the Crewe area this won’t affect services to/from Keele.

Totally unrelated, I did notice when I bought my bargain pass last week that the payment was processed by some company called PMT Ltd. :roll: Still alive then!

 

[Robertj21a]

That would make sense, and I don't disagree with you, but that is not the reason given by First. Doing something sensible, rather than what is merely operationally convenient, will be a novel departure for them. Perhaps it may catch on.

More deckers are moving from Leicester to enable the 25 to be a decker route.
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At least First Group have now won the Trans Pennine Express rail franchise.

 

[Volvodart]

Of note from the recently filed accounts of First South West Limited for the 2015 financial year is that the cash consideration for the Plymouth sale was £1, and although it was not sold until after that date, there was over £3 million written off fixed assets as a result of the sale.

 

[LateThanNever]

Of note from the recently filed accounts of First South West Limited for the 2015 financial year is that the cash consideration for the Plymouth sale was £1, and although it was not sold until after that date, there was over £3 million written off fixed assets as a result of the sale.

Which you have to say, as they sold it to a similar national group, calls into doubt their management systems and style!

Mind you £3 million write off seems excessive for the rather poor (heap of junk) quality of the fleet. I detect tax benefitting.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Which you have to say, as they sold it to a similar national group, calls into doubt their management systems and style!

Mind you £3 million write off seems excessive for the rather poor (heap of junk) quality of the fleet. I detect tax benefitting.

I suspect it's more to do with the perceived "worth" of that business as it was on the books or historic goodwill.

Whether it was closed down or sold, that is a financial hit that would have had to have been taken. By selling it, they have removed a piece of business that was haemorrhaging cash and avoided further liabilities in terms of redundancy.

Whether it may have been better to exit it in 2013 when they were already in close down mode as was disclosed at the time, who knows.

 

[overthewater]

Whether it may have been better to exit it in 2013 when they were already in close down mode as was disclosed at the time, who knows.

I think the North Devon spooked them.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think the North Devon spooked them.

TOT did allude to that in terms of a sale but whether an outright closure would've been cheaper in the long run, we won't know.

 

[Volvodart]

Mind you £3 million write off seems excessive for the rather poor (heap of junk) quality of the fleet. I detect tax benefitting.

Vast majority was write off on land and buildings, presumably Plymouth depot.

 

[overthewater]

Vast majority was write off on land and buildings, presumably Plymouth depot.

Surly the land would have made money ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Surly the land would have made money ?

There could be a number of factors at play. Was it on the books above the market value? Over what period was the building and fit out depreciated over?

I'm surprised that it's concentrated on the tangible assets as opposed to the intangible but not seen the accounts (unless someone fancies posting a link)

 

[Volvodart]

There could be a number of factors at play. Was it on the books above the market value? Over what period was the building and fit out depreciated over?

I'm surprised that it's concentrated on the tangible assets as opposed to the intangible but not seen the accounts (unless someone fancies posting a link)

Basically, the Plymouth depot cost around £4 million in 1999 and it is depreciated over 50 years.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Basically, the Plymouth depot cost around £4 million in 1999 and it is depreciated over 50 years.

50 years!!!! hock: Depending on the amount of fit out and automation, I tend to deal in 10 -20 years when costing property/fit out, although tend to lease or do sale and lease back.

My flabber is gasted.....

 

[ChrisPJ]

Wonder how the depot in Northampton was represented on the books.

 

[Robertj21a]

Wonder how the depot in Northampton was represented on the books.

I guess it used Lockhead's experience as an accountant......

 

[overthewater]

Well First Glasgow No2 has done well for its self, its now making 10% profits on the overall turnover.

First Glasgow No1 has also been improved, not to the 10% levels as yet I think its more like 8 or 9%. So its all on the up and up.

 

[robertclark125]

So First Glasgow as a whole (the old SB Holdings) is probably sittings on profits of about 8%? Given the rural nature of some of the territory, that's really good, and a good turnaround from even five years ago.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

50 years!!!! hock: Depending on the amount of fit out and automation, I tend to deal in 10 -20 years when costing property/fit out, although tend to lease or do sale and lease back.

My flabber is gasted.....

50 (or 60) years would be quite normal for a proper 'bricks and mortar' building. A crinkly tin shed presumably less due to the nature of the materials.

The rate of return on the investment needed by the company to justify a development would perhaps be different to its depreciation rate in the accounts?

As an update, no outstation location has been opened or even identified (as yet) in First Potteries area.