First Group: General Discussion

[A0wen]

Maybe Northampton wouldn't have lost £50,000 if they didn't charge more than competing operators, fail to run at evenings thereby losing a lot of return journeys and didn't operate totally dilapidated vehicles. It doesn't take a top grade industry professional to figure out why nobody uses First Northampton services.

No, they'd probably have lost more than £50k if they either charged less or were running evening services with half a a dozen or fewer passengers on.

Stagecoach's services in the evening frequently have fewer than a dozen passengers on which must be marginal from a viability perspective.

The benefit to making a loss from First's point of view is that they can reduce their tax liability for the profitable divisions.

 

[Ivo]

Surely they aren't losing £50K per annum - that sounds pathetic and easy to sell. Are you guys sure it's not £50K per week?

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Well today in Kidderminster was interesting now Rotala have took over. Problems with drivers not knowing their new ticket machines, half the fleet without working LED displays and some vehicles still carrying their first fleet numbers, some of the Rotala imports without fleet numbers, and former first 67255 out on Stourports with solos on other Kidderminster locals.

Thank goodness first had an inspector out in Bromsgrove showing people which operator is running which of the services. Mainly because Rotala have got blue, black, first livery and red serving Bromsgrove.

 

[overthewater]

Surely they aren't losing £50K per annum - that sounds pathetic and easy to sell. Are you guys sure it's not £50K per week?

Nope is it 50K over the past year..

 

[Lewisham2221]

Nope is it 50K over the past year..

Which, if correct, equates to less than £150 a day (slightly more if you take into accout non-operational days etc). Obviously it's not ideal, but it's hardly a huge loss!

 

[swifty]

Northampton Transport Ltd Pre Tax Profit for the past five financial years.

-47,000 413,000 -689,000 -677,000 24,000

 

[tbtc]

£50,000 a year sounds like the kind of figure that could be a profit or a loss depending on the accounting used - that's surprisingly trivial (compared to the costs of running a depot/ running buses/ paying staff) - I'd expected a much larger loss when reading some of the opinions on this thread.

 

[Sandy Drew]

Given that annual turnover is usually between 5 and 6 mil - that operation should really be contributing an annual op profit of £0.5m upwards (minimum) at the margins 'expected' by the big groups. £50k loss or even profit would probably be unacceptable.

 

[Ivo]

Given that annual turnover is usually between 5 and 6 mil - that operation should really be contributing an annual op profit of £0.5m upwards (minimum) at the margins 'expected' by the big groups. £50k loss or even profit would probably be unacceptable.

Maybe, but it's still adequate to entice one of the midfield lot (e.g. Transdev) to give it a go with the aim of improving its fortunes. There is obviously more than meets the eye here at a localised level - either that, or people (not just on here) are exaggerating the situation.

 

[Rich McLean]

Any news on the Plymouth/South Devon Operation. Came down today, and apart from the Park and Ride, all buses are in the old livery and hardly any new buses. The ones that they did get have vanished in recent years

 

[swifty]

Unlikely to be sold, repaints are now starting into the new livery. Most of the Olympians have been withdrawn and replaced with Dennis Tridents from FHD and 3 E400s transferred in from FSA.

LR02LYP: http://www.flickr.com/photos/eybusman/8531436271/
LN51GOU: www.flickr.com/photos/8615623@N04/8501136250/
YJ51RJX: http://www.flickr.com/photos/capuchinoking/7907396698/
WA08MVF: http://www.flickr.com/photos/29197902@N06/8519524750/

 

[overthewater]

Apart from Northampton, Leicesters, and most of Livingston, where else has No new colours

 

[markie73]

Has it been confirmed by First that Leicester is for sale?, I can't find anything confirming this.

 

[tbtc]

Has it been confirmed by First that Leicester is for sale?, I can't find anything confirming this.

Nothing's been confirmed about *anywhere* being for sale, just a lot of speculation

 

[overthewater]

It 3 weeks isn't it? Plus the last day and first of the new financial year is Easter.

Will there be enough time to get them off the books.

 

[winston270twm]

It 3 weeks isn't it? Plus the last day and first of the new financial year is Easter.

Will there be enough time to get them off the books.

Yes 31st March is First Groups year end. They wouldn't be able to get anything further off the books now as typical the disposal transactions are taking 4-6 weeks. But they could still announce they they have agreed sales prior to the year end.

Its all gone mysteriously quiet again, no rumours no nothing....

 

[markie73]

Yes 31st March is First Groups year end. They wouldn't be able to get anything further off the books now as typical the disposal transactions are taking 4-6 weeks. But they could still announce they they have agreed sales prior to the year end.

Its all gone mysteriously quiet again, no rumours no nothing....

Will First still be able to close depots such as Northampton etc before or after March 31st, if the financial loses are as bad as folk say?.

 

[overthewater]

Will First still be able to close depots such as Northampton etc before or after March 31st, if the financial loses are as bad as folk say?.

Your mist a point, First will only shut it of it make since, a few years ago it make 1/2 losses, since then its been improved, mainly via cost cutting to just 50K loss. First will not close this down as it will be cheap to keep on making 50K loses for years to come than to do a one off payment to sack everyone etc.

 

[markie73]

Your mist a point, First will only shut it of it make since, a few years ago it make 1/2 losses, since then its been improved, mainly via cost cutting to just 50K loss. First will not close this down as it will be cheap to keep on making 50K loses for years to come than to do a one off payment to sack everyone etc.

Well if First does decide to keep hold of Northampton then I hope that they give the operation a complete overhaul (i.e new livery and buses etc), somehow I cant see this happening unless there is some surprises in the works.

 

[winston270twm]

It appears that First Leicester are currently having their first bus repainted in the new First colours Volvo B7TL/ALX400 32066 @ Adderley Green depot of First Potteries

 

[bb21]

It appears that First Leicester are currently having their first bus repainted in the new First colours Volvo B7TL/ALX400 32066 @ Adderley Green depot of First Potteries

Didn't 32066 move to PMT? or was that 32065?

 

[winston270twm]

Didn't 32066 move to PMT? or was that 32065?

32065 went to Northampton expected to be swapped with a Gemini for Potteries, not sure the exchange ever took place & whether 32065 remained?

 

[overthewater]

Is there any chance of any announcements being made before 1 April? If not should we be looking at further afield.

On April 2, 2012, First announced that it was to close the Dalkeith bus depot and scale back operations in Musselburgh, so that was the 2012-13 accounts taking effect YET...

But in the 2011-12 accounts its clearly show Losses on Termination of an operation: £1'100'000 What was the "termination"

I starting to dread what the accounts for FSE will be for the last 12months after there slash cost and have to payout in job losses..

 

[markie73]

32065 went to Northampton expected to be swapped with a Gemini for Potteries, not sure the exchange ever took place & whether 32065 remained?

32065 only spent a very short time at Northampton with one of the lances moving to leicester only to return back home to Northampton after a few weeks, both Geminis were supposed to be moving to the potteries but are still at Northampton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It appears that First Leicester are currently having their first bus repainted in the new First colours Volvo B7TL/ALX400 32066 @ Adderley Green depot of First Potteries

Well would first be doing this if the Leicester operation was for sale?, I hope that Northampton gets the new colours as well - only time will tell.

 

[tbtc]

would first be doing this if the Leicester operation was for sale?

Buses need repainting every few years though - the fact that Leicester have painted a bus for the first time in almost a year (when did the new livery come along? last summer?) might not mean much, as presumably any repaint would be in the new livery regardless (even if Leicester gets sold, they could easily swap it for a B7TL/ALX400 in the old livery in South Yorkshire - we have a few of them!)

 

[Deerfold]

It 3 weeks isn't it? Plus the last day and first of the new financial year is Easter.

Will there be enough time to get them off the books.

You keep bringing this up. I thought that the end of the financial year was an aspirational date rather than a deadline.

 

[Deerfold]

It 3 weeks isn't it? Plus the last day and first of the new financial year is Easter.

Will there be enough time to get them off the books.

This keeps coming up. I thought that the end of the financial year was an aspirational date rather than a deadline.

 

[Volvodart]

This keeps coming up. I thought that the end of the financial year was an aspirational date rather than a deadline.

Last year's London sale was announced after today's date and it went through by the end of March.

 

[F Great Eastern]

A division of the US company has been sold off:
http://home.nestor.minsk.by/build/news/2013/03/1103.html

 

[overthewater]

I wonder how much that brought in. Does that bring in a sperate pile of money to reduce the debt.

There still four depots which are basket case which first have never been able to deal with....