• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

First Group: General Discussion

vicbury

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2012
Messages
989
Location
Bristol
Good to see that Volvo are not getting any orders (just a few coaches).
I wonder, (2 years running)if ADL is giving them a better deal?

No it's not, Volvo B9TLs with Wright Eclipse Gemini 2 bodies are far superior to Enviro 400s in every single aspect, but particularly ride quality and refinement.

My preference for bus orders would be:

Minibus: Optare Solo SR (Mercedes engine)
Midibus: Optare Versa
Full-size: MAN Lion's City but as they aren't available in the UK Mercedes Citaro
Double deck: Volvo B9TL / Wright Gemini 2
Articulated: Volvo B7RLA / Wright Eclipse Fusion (not sure if this is still available)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,672
No it's not, Volvo B9TLs with Wright Eclipse Gemini 2 bodies are far superior to Enviro 400s in every single aspect, but particularly ride quality and refinement.

My preference for bus orders would be:

Minibus: Optare Solo SR (Mercedes engine)
Midibus: Optare Versa
Full-size: MAN Lion's City but as they aren't available in the UK Mercedes Citaro
Double deck: Volvo B9TL / Wright Gemini 2
Articulated: Volvo B7RLA / Wright Eclipse Fusion (not sure if this is still available)


That's all very well but you don't have to pay the enormous fuel bill that results from most of those heavy duty buses.

Robert
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
21,029
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
The replacement policy was actually fairly reasonable until 2005. Then they reduced the spend to keep cash to help fund the Laidlaw deal and then had the struggle to make the payments!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




Why odd? First operate into Camberley and anyway my interest has always been nationwide.
Volvo - personal prejudice mixed with a tiny piece of patriotism - ok most Manufacturers are multi-national 'assemblers' of parts.
Clearly I don't like First, so areas which I would like to see sold/closed down/ decline would cause me disappointment if they receive new buses.
Sentiment and prejudice aside, if i was an investor in First I would want to see investment in areas which clearly have a future.
It would seem that despite the best efforts of Firsts revitalised Management, FSE and D & C are fighting a losing battle, at some stage they are going to have to bite the bullet and make some hard decisions.
Good news just in, I note that First have lost a P & R contract in Cardiff to Cardiff Bus.

It's odd because First are hardly a major purveyor of bus services in Surrey. Wow, a service to Camberley? Hardly a major insight. As for interested nationally, fair enough but if you had First as a local operator, then you'd have a bit more knowledge to rely on. I'd not get too excited by FC losing the P&R in Cardiff. Guess it balances out the wins for the T9 and the 40/40c?

Also, I think you'll see some First areas getting new kit; christ, even Weymouth got some new kit this year (2013) for the first time since 1999 (excluding those funded for the X53 by LAs) :) I'd expect new kit appearing in places like Potteries and Cornwall (though perhaps Somerset and other places may still have to rely on the cascading of kit across the fleet). As Winston says, some of these will need to get some new kit to change the old problems so perhaps (for instance) the 14/18 in Cornwall might attract some new machinery.

Whilst I applaud your jingoism, sadly the worst machines I have travelled on recently have been ADL e200s and they're all British. Appreciate the higher fuel consumption, but the Volvos are very good kit in terms of reliability and ride. The reason why Solos don't have the issue so much with DDA is that on kit like Darts and B6s, the problem is to do with wheelarches and wheelchair access. So the odd retrofitted ramp and ironing board with the Solo and you're largely there. As Mr Bonwick rightly says, the larger machines (B10BLEs/Wt Renown with First, MAN/ALX300 with Stagecoach) may actually only need a relatively light makeover.
 

Surreyman

Member
Joined
29 Jan 2012
Messages
995
It's odd because First are hardly a major purveyor of bus services in Surrey. Wow, a service to Camberley? Hardly a major insight. As for interested nationally, fair enough but if you had First as a local operator, then you'd have a bit more knowledge to rely on. I'd not get too excited by FC losing the P&R in Cardiff. Guess it balances out the wins for the T9 and the 40/40c?

Also, I think you'll see some First areas getting new kit; christ, even Weymouth got some new kit this year (2013) for the first time since 1999 (excluding those funded for the X53 by LAs) :) I'd expect new kit appearing in places like Potteries and Cornwall (though perhaps Somerset and other places may still have to rely on the cascading of kit across the fleet). As Winston says, some of these will need to get some new kit to change the old problems so perhaps (for instance) the 14/18 in Cornwall might attract some new machinery.

I am not exactly a frequent rider/user of Stagecoach/Arriva/Go Ahead either but I can have an opinion on all of them which isn't always based on direct personal experience!
Even I would admit that Firsts 'offer' varies from area to area, i have experienced West Yorkshire/FSE/Portsmouth/Dublin Blue coach & former First London in the last 12 months, First clearly can operate a good service in some areas.
I readily admit to a negative prejudice where First is concerned but I get a huge 'buzz' when Go Ahead or Stagecoach announce new services/investments /developments/takeovers.
From my purely personal and biased viewpoint, it is a great shame that the Sandel proposal wasn't for the exact opposite i.e that First sell off their British bus business and use the proceeds to invest in UK rail and US bus/coach companies.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
21,029
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
I am not exactly a frequent rider/user of Stagecoach/Arriva/Go Ahead either but I can have an opinion on all of them which isn't always based on direct personal experience!
Even I would admit that Firsts 'offer' varies from area to area, i have experienced West Yorkshire/FSE/Portsmouth/Dublin Blue coach & former First London in the last 12 months, First clearly can operate a good service in some areas.
I readily admit to a negative prejudice where First is concerned but I get a huge 'buzz' when Go Ahead or Stagecoach announce new services/investments /developments/takeovers.
From my purely personal and biased viewpoint, it is a great shame that the Sandel proposal wasn't for the exact opposite i.e that First sell off their British bus business and use the proceeds to invest in UK rail and US bus/coach companies.

No point in having a prejudiced point of view, otherwise it's just some jaundiced opinion that many will just discard.

Under the Moir regime, it's clear that many good managers left, frustrated by the lack of cash to invest (from the Laidlaw purchase) and the central diktat from Moir et al in Aberdeen. Clearly, that has changed now with a lot more autonomy. That much is clear when you see how new services are introduced, new liveries, etc.

As for Sandell.....he's a carpet bagger with no wish to do anything than come in and invest, break the group up for maximum short term gain, and then get out. How that benefits the travelling public, I don't know? I also think that many of the institutional investors (having just coughed up on the rights issue) are not likely to jump yet.
 

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
10,418
Location
Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
Mushrooms found growing on First bus in service in Cornwall.

First are trying to improve in some areas, with some success, but when things like this happen, it undoes all that good work.



Aha! So thats how there keeping the fares down - a single to Penzance and a Punnet of Close Cut Please Driver? Its iether that or there attempting to find justification for a big PR Campaign about them being in a
Groath
Industry!



On the debate Re vehicles, I too have very little liking for anything ADL have on offer and would have personally chosing Cumins engines for the solos and pritty much everything else Volvo but can see why first have gone back to ADL. Lets see how long they last?

Next bunch of castoffs will I'd guess come from Yorkshire, Glasgow and Manchester and scatter to FSE, Cornwall, potteries etc. That said and done though theres still plenty Scanias both singles and deckers need replacing and I hope that common sense will see volvos doing this on routes with sustained high speed running as I would hope even First know they are less likely to sit down and dare I say it be a nicer ride for the pax?↲↲↲

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
only Scottish route outside of Glasgow and borders I can see getting any investment is X38 with the 2009 Wright Volvos cascading to X37. Doubt that will come this order though!
 

cainebj

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
2,623
Location
UK
Good to see that Volvo are not getting any orders (just a few coaches).
I wonder, (2 years running)if ADL is giving them a better deal?

No it's not, Volvo B9TLs with Wright Eclipse Gemini 2 bodies are far superior to Enviro 400s in every single aspect, but particularly ride quality and refinement.

ADL Enviro 400 is slightly cheaper to buy than a B9TL/Gemini was, and is also better on fuel. There's no denying the B9TL/Gemini is a much more superior ride, and I believe also better to drive, but operational costs comes before other aspects now to try help balance the books.

I suspect the lack of Volvos this year is due to Volvo only offering the Euro VI engined B5TL and B8RLE, while ADL have been able to offer First some Euro V engined Enviro 400s, with Wrightbus being able to offer the Euro V engined StreetLite Max to cover the full size single deck capacity. The Euro V vehicles being cheaper to buy than the Euro VI equivalents, again a better move considering the financial mess First have been in. Any opportunity to modernise the fleet at a lower cost is a huge advantage to First.
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
8,416
Only Scottish route outside of Glasgow and borders I can see getting any investment is X38 with the 2009 Wright Volvos cascading to X37. Doubt that will come this order though!

From what I have gathered, its the Scottish borders which makes the money for "Midland Bluebird" with the losses coming from Falkirk and Stirling, I cant see how the X38 will get any investment this year. I cant see much casts off appear this year either.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
21,029
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
From what I have gathered, its the Scottish borders which makes the money for "Midland Bluebird" with the losses coming from Falkirk and Stirling, I cant see how the X38 will get any investment this year. I cant see much casts off appear this year either.

From all the previous chatter, I thought it was Livingston and Musselburgh that were suspected of haemorrhaging cash?

I would expect more ex Glasgow cascades, to be honest
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Aha! So thats how there keeping the fares down - a single to Penzance and a Punnet of Close Cut Please Driver? Its iether that or there attempting to find justification for a big PR Campaign about them being in a
Groath
Industry!



On the debate Re vehicles, I too have very little liking for anything ADL have on offer and would have personally chosing Cumins engines for the solos and pritty much everything else Volvo but can see why first have gone back to ADL. Lets see how long they last?

Next bunch of castoffs will I'd guess come from Yorkshire, Glasgow and Manchester and scatter to FSE, Cornwall, potteries etc. That said and done though theres still plenty Scanias both singles and deckers need replacing and I hope that common sense will see volvos doing this on routes with sustained high speed running as I would hope even First know they are less likely to sit down and dare I say it be a nicer ride for the pax?↲↲↲

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
only Scottish route outside of Glasgow and borders I can see getting any investment is X38 with the 2009 Wright Volvos cascading to X37. Doubt that will come this order though!

Don't know why people seem to think that Potteries will have to rely on cascades. Good bus territory, not too much competition and could easily see some new kit appear there
 

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
10,418
Location
Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
From all the previous chatter, I thought it was Livingston and Musselburgh that were suspected of haemorrhaging cash?

I would expect more ex Glasgow cascades, to be honest

it is, and I would also. X38 makes money, not on a huge scale but it still props up the Central Bluebird empire to an extent but
Overthewater
is correct, borders is the major cash generater.↲
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Don't know why people seem to think that Potteries will have to rely on cascades. Good bus territory, not too much competition and could easily see some new kit appear there


I just get the impression that its one of the areas they care little about. Happy to be proved wrong though.↲

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
on the Musselburgh and cash thing though Id be interested to know how X24 does - 2 deckers an hour most of the day Mon-Sat and quite busy.↲
 

vicbury

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2012
Messages
989
Location
Bristol
ADL Enviro 400 is slightly cheaper to buy than a B9TL/Gemini was, and is also better on fuel. There's no denying the B9TL/Gemini is a much more superior ride, and I believe also better to drive, but operational costs comes before other aspects now to try help balance the books.

I suspect the lack of Volvos this year is due to Volvo only offering the Euro VI engined B5TL and B8RLE, while ADL have been able to offer First some Euro V engined Enviro 400s, with Wrightbus being able to offer the Euro V engined StreetLite Max to cover the full size single deck capacity. The Euro V vehicles being cheaper to buy than the Euro VI equivalents, again a better move considering the financial mess First have been in. Any opportunity to modernise the fleet at a lower cost is a huge advantage to First.

How do Enviro 400s compare to B9TLs in terms of maintenance? Volvo have a better reputation for reliability so presumably require less parts. Is there a big difference between the two in the cost of parts?
 

90sWereBetter

Member
Joined
13 Nov 2012
Messages
1,044
Location
Lost somewhere within Bank-Monument tube station,
Mushrooms found growing on First bus in service in Cornwall.

First are trying to improve in some areas, with some success, but when things like this happen, it undoes all that good work.

A bus with cigarette stubbers still on it? I can't imagine what sort of vehicle First still operate which would have such things, considering the oldest kit they have in Cornwall now are early/mid 1990s Olympians. If this was 15 years earlier with VRs ruling the roost, then maybe...

And I appear to be in a very small and oppressed minority, as I prefer ADL products over Volvo. :(
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
8,416
From all the previous chatter, I thought it was Livingston and Musselburgh that were suspected of haemorrhaging cash?

Remember there are two sets of accounts, both are in the red. Midland bluebird is 500k in debt. Since Scot borders are gained new buses, it must be Falkirk or Stirling that are making the loses.



And I appear to be in a very small and oppressed minority, as I prefer ADL products over Volvo. :(

Back in the day, ADL had plenty of volvo buses, :D
 
Last edited:

Surreyman

Member
Joined
29 Jan 2012
Messages
995
And I appear to be in a very small and oppressed minority, as I prefer ADL products over Volvo. :([/QUOTE]

Be assured, you are not alone!
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
21,029
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Remember there are two sets of accounts, both are in the red. Midland bluebird is 500k in debt. Since Scot borders are gained new buses, it must be Falkirk or Stirling that are making the loses.





Back in the day, ADL had plenty of volvo deckers, :D

That doesn't make sense.... if both set of accounts are in the red, then how can Falkirk or Stirling be making the losses.....??

Is what you're saying is that there is Midland Bluebird, and that comprises Balfron, Bannockburn and Larbert and that is losing a shed load.

Then there's a separate set of accounts that has Livingston, Musselburgh, plus Galashiels and North Berwick (plus outstations) and that the latter two make money but the first two lose more than that?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And I appear to be in a very small and oppressed minority, as I prefer ADL products over Volvo. :(

Be assured, you are not alone![/QUOTE]

Depends on the reason why you don't like them? If it's blind jingoism, then that's one thing you can't control.

At the moment, it's the weight and fuel benefits that are prompting many people to look away from Volvo. Also, ADL have been quite good at meeting operator requirements in terms of body trim and spec, better than some other firms. I actually quite like the e400 body and it's not too bad in terms of quality.

However, the e200 seems to suffer badly in terms of build quality and ride, especially when unladen. The shorter wheelbase and lighter chassis do it no favours, especially in comparison with Versas and Streetlites. e300s are ok but in terms of comfort get nowhere near a B7RLE or even an older B10BLE.
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
8,416
Lets Start again with the Accounts, and how First Scotland East works:

Company as a whole is trading as "First Scotland East"

The company is actually made up of two sperate operations:

* First Scotland East: Covers Livingston, Musselburgh, plus North Berwick outstations: its accounts are in the Red with £4m losses. ( also none of the buses give change)

* Midland Bluebird: Covers Balfron, Bannockburn, Larbert and Galashiels, Its accounts are also in the red, but with a smaller losses of around 500k or 1/2million.

Lets look at Midland Bluebird: we know that Galashields makes money since it continues to get new buses, so it must be either Bannockburn or Larbert which are making the losses.
 

Sandy Drew

Member
Joined
24 Dec 2010
Messages
59
Re: First's East Scotland bus business finances - not sure whether this will help or hinder, but here goes...

+ Midland Bluebird Limited in the last (2013) accounts reported an operating profit of £192k against a turnover of £32m. There are no figs available for 2012.

+ Midland Bluebird Limited is a direct Subsidiary of First Scotland East Limited.

+ First Scotland East Limited in the last (2013) accounts reported an operating loss of £3.9m against a turnover of £15.2m

+ The two limited companies combined in 2012 reported an operating loss of £3m against turnover of £52m.

So if anyone out there knows which locations are appended to which legal identities we should have a rough idea of the poorer performing locations?

Hope this helps (though doubt it will).
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
21,029
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Lets Start again with the Accounts, and how First Scotland East works:

Company as a whole is trading as "First Scotland East"

The company is actually made up of two sperate operations:

* First Scotland East: Covers Livingston, Musselburgh, plus North Berwick outstations: its accounts are in the Red with £4m losses. ( also none of the buses give change)

* Midland Bluebird: Covers Balfron, Bannockburn, Larbert and Galashiels, Its accounts are also in the red, but with a smaller losses of around 500k or 1/2million.

Lets look at Midland Bluebird: we know that Galashields makes money since it continues to get new buses, so it must be either Bannockburn or Larbert which are making the losses.

That's more like it ;) Now, you may be right but there's no guarantee that the new buses are showing how lucrative the Borders are but assuming that is the case, I'd still expect BN and Larbert to be profitable following a bit of investment and management focus.

FSE looks for all the world like a "bad bank" - put all the sins of the world in one place. That does pre-suppose that all of the costs placed against FSE were incurred by those depots
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,672
How do Enviro 400s compare to B9TLs in terms of maintenance? Volvo have a better reputation for reliability so presumably require less parts. Is there a big difference between the two in the cost of parts?


I was told that ADL are often easier/quicker to service/part replacement than Volvo. That must have an impact on workflow and overall costs.

Robert
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
8,416
Re: First's East Scotland bus business finances - not sure whether this will help or hinder, but here goes...

+ Midland Bluebird Limited in the last (2013) accounts reported an operating profit of £192k against a turnover of £32m. There are no figs available for 2012.
.

I forgot about that, the only reason it ended up in profit in last accounts is because it raised 700K - " Profit on the sale of Tangible Fixed assets" I dare say that was the sale of the Linlithgow depot? That is no way to operate a business, sell off some land to get the company to break even.

attachment.php
 
Last edited:

Surreyman

Member
Joined
29 Jan 2012
Messages
995
At the moment, it's the weight and fuel benefits that are prompting many people to look away from Volvo. Also, ADL have been quite good at meeting operator requirements in terms of body trim and spec, better than some other firms. I actually quite like the e400 body and it's not too bad in terms of quality.

However, the e200 seems to suffer badly in terms of build quality and ride, especially when unladen. The shorter wheelbase and lighter chassis do it no favours, especially in comparison with Versas and Streetlites. e300s are ok but in terms of comfort get nowhere near a B7RLE or even an older B10BLE.[/QUOTE]

Where the UK market for Double Deckers is concerned, we are getting close to a duopoly, (OK Wrights have the NBFL & have just launched their own Model), Scania still have some market share but it mostly seems to be ADL & Volvo battling it out for every order, standardisation must play a part in some instances.
Even Stagecoach have ordered some (leased) Volvos for London.
Is this an example of market forces benefiting the bus companies or is some of it down to delivery slots i.e who can build the vehicles soonest?
 

DunsBus

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2013
Messages
1,602
Location
Duns
Re: First's East Scotland bus business finances - not sure whether this will help or hinder, but here goes...

+ Midland Bluebird Limited in the last (2013) accounts reported an operating profit of £192k against a turnover of £32m. There are no figs available for 2012.

+ Midland Bluebird Limited is a direct Subsidiary of First Scotland East Limited.

+ First Scotland East Limited in the last (2013) accounts reported an operating loss of £3.9m against a turnover of £15.2m

+ The two limited companies combined in 2012 reported an operating loss of £3m against turnover of £52m.

So if anyone out there knows which locations are appended to which legal identities we should have a rough idea of the poorer performing locations?

Hope this helps (though doubt it will).

The Midland Bluebird licence covers Balfron, Bannockburn, Galashiels and Larbert. Some of the vehicles based at Galashiels are outstationed at Hawick, Kelso and Peebles.

First Scotland East is the former First Edinburgh licence which in turn is the former Lowland one renamed. It covers the depots at Deans and Musselburgh, plus the outstation at North Berwick.
 

DunsBus

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2013
Messages
1,602
Location
Duns
I thought North Berwick was upgraded from an outstation to a full depot?

It was, in 1997 and not long after Lowland had taken over the Dalkeith and Musselburgh operations of SMT. I'm not sure whether it still has depot status or is an outstation once again. Certainly its allocation is rotated through Musselburgh to allow servicing and repairs etc to be done.
 
Last edited:

mbonwick

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2006
Messages
6,303
Location
Kendal
Even Stagecoach have ordered some (leased) Volvos for London.
Is this an example of market forces benefiting the bus companies or is some of it down to delivery slots i.e who can build the vehicles soonest?

I'm led to believe the Stagecoach order for Volvos is solely down to delivery pressures, i.e. ADL can't supply sufficient E400Hs in time.
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
8,416
Where have the 35 deckers gotten to? since we are now past the new year.


http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/leicester/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=15081&conf=0

Local bus operator, First Leicester, today announced a £5.9 million investment in 35 buses which are due to strengthen the companys 100 strong fleet later this month.

This latest investment in buses, all of which feature luxurious e-leather seating, extra legroom and air conditioning, underlines the companys commitment to encourage more people on to its services.

The buses, which will provide customers with a more comfortable journey, will hit the streets of Leicester from the end of December.

General Manager of First Leicester, Steve Zanker, said: "This is great news for our customers. Our £5.9 million investment in these 35 buses reflects our aim to improve services for our customers and our commitment to encourage more people to use our buses and to use them more often.

"Were looking forward to introducing these buses to our network and our drivers cant wait to get them out on the road.'

He added: "Im sure the investment in our fleet will be widely welcomed by our customers.'

The vehicles are Enviro 400s and are fitted with low floor access, feature Euro 4 engines and come equipped with an innovative seating layout that maximises space for customers.
 

winston270twm

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2012
Messages
1,899
Most are at Leicester, but haven't entered service because the drivers haven't all been type trained yet.

Thornton's have generally being delivering one a day to Leicester, could First be waiting until all are delivered to launch the entire batch / make a bigger impact?
 

Top