First Group: General Discussion

[GaryMcEwan]

Major shake-up for bus services in city



http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport/major-shake-up-for-bus-services-in-city.24005598

Old news this is, First announced it a couple of weeks ago on the website and the mobile app.

Is Glasgow losing money somewhere for them to cut these services? Also is the M6 (Paisley - Silverburn) busy enough for them to keep it on? Any time I've seen it, its usually empty...

 

[317 forever]

So, the provisional allocations for Streetlites have been announced. Are these the Micro Hybrid examples on order or will these be "ordinary" Streetlites?

I wonder whether there will really be enough passengers to fill the extra 42s being introduced between Manchester and East Didsbury next weekend, allowing for the Stagecoach including Magic Bus frequency here.

 

[tbtc]

So let me get this right, First are happily engaging in a bus war in Manchester against Stagecoach, yet up in Edinburgh they announced their withdrawal from the Edinburgh-South Queensferry corridor within days of Stagecoach announcing their intention to run on it! You get the impression that First Scotland East is a law unto itself, instead of tackling competition it spits out the dummy as soon as a rival comes on the scene. It may be a new era at First but it's the same old tricks as far as First Scotland East is concerned...:roll:

The same happened in Plymouth, Stagecoach Devon registered a new Gold service between Plymouth & Torquay in direct competition with First D&C X80 & X81, First immediately withdrew. I expect it is some sort of unofficial deal between the two companies, after all First sold the majority of its non-London bus business disposals to Stagecoach

My uninformed/ boring answer is that its probably because the market in south Manchester is big enough to sustain competition (UK North etc showed this in the past), just like Stagecoach proved that Sheffield is a big enough market to sustain competition...

...whereas the other routes mentioned are too small to be worth fighting for (over several months of fare cuts/ competition)? For example, there are four trains an hour from central Edinburgh to Dalmeney (approx fifteen minutes from Waverley, ten minutes from Haymarket), compared to buses taking maybe forty minutes to South Queensferry - that's already a significant amount of competition for the First 43 before they start worrying about Stagecoach flooding the market with cheap tickets. Not worth the candle.

Meanwhile, nice to see the new vehicle list has a lot of variety to it (in terms of destination) - e.g. not just Leeds/ Glasgow/ London - they seem to be (slowly) addressing a decade of problems - just a shame that its taken them so long!

 

[winston270twm]

My uninformed/ boring answer is that its probably because the market in south Manchester is big enough to sustain competition (UK North etc showed this in the past), just like Stagecoach proved that Sheffield is a big enough market to sustain competition...

I agree with your comments, but in terms of First Group, they have more than enough of their own problems to sort out, before getting involved in a bus war in Manchester. Surely South Manchester isn't going to be that lucrative for First, and Stagecoach certainly wont make it easy to take market share off them. If First Group were in a stronger financial position then fine, but I can't help think all those new buses already at Rusholme & due to be allocated their from current order would be utilized elsewhere within in the group to give the under-performing subsidiaries a boost.

 

[Deerfold]

Couldn't have put it better myself TheGrandWazoo, I suspect some official agreement has taken place between the two parties.

As for Deerfold's other comment, he knows exactly what I was referring too re: First disposals to Stagecoach, just being pedantic.....

I really didn't know what you were referring to. "The majority of its non-London bus business" didn't make me think of the couple of depots that First has sold to Stagecoach.

 

[winston270twm]

I really didn't know what you were referring to. "The majority of its non-London bus business" didn't make me think of the couple of depots that First has sold to Stagecoach.

Fair enough, I added disposals to my post after seeing your comment.

"after all First sold the majority of its non-London bus business disposals to Stagecoach"

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I agree with your comments, but in terms of First Group, they have more than enough of their own problems to sort out, before getting involved in a bus war in Manchester. Surely South Manchester isn't going to be that lucrative for First, and Stagecoach certainly wont make it easy to take market share off them. If First Group were in a stronger financial position then fine, but I can't help think all those new buses already at Rusholme & due to be allocated their from current order would be utilized elsewhere within in the group to give the under-performing subsidiaries a boost.

Winston

Given that Stagecoach have purchased the Bluebird business, this is probably nothing more than some sabre rattling. Buying the Finglands business acts as a nice bulwark against Stagecoach expanding into Oldham and the like.

Also nice for the next CC investigation in bus competition (or lack of)......

I'd be surprised if there's much more going to happen

 

[robertclark125]

Whilst all this is happening, one area carrying on calmly is Bristol and Bath, with a fightback against Wessex in operation.

 

[winston270twm]

Whilst all this is happening, one area carrying on calmly is Bristol and Bath, with a fightback against Wessex in operation.

From what I can gather, First Bristol have won some tendered services at the expense of Wessex in the Yate area and started a couple of new commercial services one being the X46, one which parallel's Wessex's X27. At present, I understand Wessex are currently holding their own in relation to that route. So far the buses surplus to requirements are being cascaded up to the West Midlands 5 x 07 plate VDL/Plaxton Centro's & a couple more B7RLE/Plaxton Centro's. Wessex have presently chosen not to re-deploy the buses made redundant on to other /new routes in competition with First.

If First ever managed to get in with UWE, Bristol that would certainly hurt the Wessex business.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

From what I can gather, First Bristol have won some tendered services at the expense of Wessex in the Yate area and started a couple of new commercial services one being the X46, one which parallel's Wessex's X27. At present, I understand Wessex are currently holding their own in relation to that route. So far the buses surplus to requirements are being cascaded up to the West Midlands 5 x 07 plate VDL/Plaxton Centro's & a couple more B7RLE/Plaxton Centro's. Wessex have presently chosen not to re-deploy the buses made redundant on to other /new routes in competition with First.

If First ever managed to get in with UWE, Bristol that would certainly hurt the Wessex business.

Not quite, Winston. The services that First have introduced have been commercial. One of which, the X49, appears to be quite a marginal route (though might be bolstered by being basically part of the 49 city group corridor).

They did take a few tendered journeys off Wessex in Bath over a year ago, and also took over as preferred partner for the Bath Uni SU but the latest are commercial moves that "appear" aimed at removing Wessex from substantial areas of the conurbation.

Should be noted that much of the extra PVR is being undertaken with some rather shabby ex Welsh Marshall Darts so being introduced at a lower cost base!

 

[winston270twm]

Not quite, Winston. The services that First have introduced have been commercial. One of which, the X49, appears to be quite a marginal route (though might be bolstered by being basically part of the 49 city group corridor).

They did take a few tendered journeys off Wessex in Bath over a year ago, and also took over as preferred partner for the Bath Uni SU but the latest are commercial moves that "appear" aimed at removing Wessex from substantial areas of the conurbation.

Should be noted that much of the extra PVR is being undertaken with some rather shabby ex Welsh Marshall Darts so being introduced at a lower cost base!

TheGrandWazoo,

Sorry my mistake, so just to clarify the tendered services Wessex used to operate in the Yate area have now been introduced by First commercially then? I knew that Wessex used to operate their X27 with a subsidy, First offered to operate the X27 commercially as their X46 and now Wessex deem the X27 as commercially viable and are continuing with it on a commercial basis. From a only few reports I've seen to date, I understand Wessex are still carrying the lion's share of passengers on that route at least.

I've seen some photo's of those Dart/Marshall Capital's and they do look rather shabby.

List of Darts are on Steve White's website below for anyone interested
http://www.swhite.org.uk/steve/apr.htm

 

[swifty]

Should be noted that much of the extra PVR is being undertaken with some rather shabby ex Welsh Marshall Darts so being introduced at a lower cost base!

The @FirstBSA twitter feed claimed that as a business they're running on a 1% profit margin, this was in relation to a moan about an increase in fares on the ex Wessex routes. Make of that what you will, the amount of rollocks that appears on their twitter in responce to complaints is comical.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

T knew that Wessex used to operate their X27 with a subsidy, First offered to operate the X27 commercially as their X46 and now Wessex deem the X27 as commercially viable and are continuing with it on a commercial basis. From a only few reports I've seen to date, I understand Wessex are still carrying the lion's share of passengers on that route at least.

Not only that but Wessex suddenly realised that their fares have been too high on the X27 as well, they've been reduced to a level just below those of First.

 

[winston270twm]

Winston

Given that Stagecoach have purchased the Bluebird business, this is probably nothing more than some sabre rattling. Buying the Finglands business acts as a nice bulwark against Stagecoach expanding into Oldham and the like.

Also nice for the next CC investigation in bus competition (or lack of)......

I'd be surprised if there's much more going to happen

TheGrandWazoo,

I see where you're coming from, but First & Stagecoach have been known to have a few spats in various areas over the past decade or so, before sense finally prevails

I notice First have extended their 42 to become a cross city service and double the frequency from every 20 mins currently to every 10 mins from 27th April. Both First & Stagecoach are now offering £1 single fares until June.

I believe there were also suggestions that Stagecoach would now be extending one of their existing routes in to First territory, but can't remember which one/where I saw it

 

[Robertj21a]

Winston

Given that Stagecoach have purchased the Bluebird business, this is probably nothing more than some sabre rattling. Buying the Finglands business acts as a nice bulwark against Stagecoach expanding into Oldham and the like.

Also nice for the next CC investigation in bus competition (or lack of)......

I'd be surprised if there's much more going to happen

Isn't JPT of Middleton on the cards ?

Robert

 

[radamfi]

Isn't JPT of Middleton on the cards ?

Both First and Stagecoach have operations in the area, so if either took over JPT there would be a competition inquiry.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Isn't JPT of Middleton on the cards ?

Robert

Who's purchasing JPT? I thought it was more a case of them potentially going to the wall?

 

[winston270twm]

Who's purchasing JPT? I thought it was more a case of them potentially going to the wall?

It sounds in the JPT thread that they're still going to the wall, there's no point paying to take them over now. Just wait for them to cease trading and register on their commercial services.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It sounds in the JPT thread that they're still going to the wall, there's no point paying to take them over now. Just wait for them to cease trading and register on their commercial services.

I think that's very much the case.

BTW, this is the route I think you're trying to recall

PC0003681/361 - GREATER MANCHESTER BUSES SOUTH LTD T/A STAGECOACH MANCHESTER, HEAD OFFICE, HYDE ROAD, ARDWICK, MANCHESTER, M12 6JS
Registration Accepted
Starting Point: Manchester
Finish Point: Farnworth
Via:
Service Number: 38
Service Type: Normal Stopping
Effective Date: 18-MAY-2014
Other Details: Service introduced

Their retaliation against the 42 moves by First. I'd be surprised if there's much more activity after that
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TheGrandWazoo,

Sorry my mistake, so just to clarify the tendered services Wessex used to operate in the Yate area have now been introduced by First commercially then? I knew that Wessex used to operate their X27 with a subsidy, First offered to operate the X27 commercially as their X46 and now Wessex deem the X27 as commercially viable and are continuing with it on a commercial basis. From a only few reports I've seen to date, I understand Wessex are still carrying the lion's share of passengers on that route at least.

I've seen some photo's of those Dart/Marshall Capital's and they do look rather shabby.

There were a number of tendered services that Wessex operated:

Ser 507 was replaced by the new First 17 Keynsham to Southmead Hosp
Ser 581 was replaced by the new First 81 Yate to Kingswood (though the route does differ in several respects)
Sers 482/3 were replaced by new First 82 Yate to Southmead Hosp
Ser 689 was replaced by new First X49 Bristol to Yate via Pucklechurch
Ser X27 was to be replaced by new First X46 Bristol to Yate but then, as you say, Wessex registered it commercially and reduced the fares!

All are commercial registrations by First. Some, on the face of it, look quite daring! I used to live in that part of the city (now I'm a country squire ) but was working around the area and it's really noticeable how it's gone from being a border zone to being very much First with a few Wessex tenders.

 

[winston270twm]

I think that's very much the case.

BTW, this is the route I think you're trying to recall

PC0003681/361 - GREATER MANCHESTER BUSES SOUTH LTD T/A STAGECOACH MANCHESTER, HEAD OFFICE, HYDE ROAD, ARDWICK, MANCHESTER, M12 6JS
Registration Accepted
Starting Point: Manchester
Finish Point: Farnworth
Via:
Service Number: 38
Service Type: Normal Stopping
Effective Date: 18-MAY-2014
Other Details: Service introduced

Their retaliation against the 42 moves by First. I'd be surprised if there's much more activity after that
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There were a number of tendered services that Wessex operated:

Ser 507 was replaced by the new First 17 Keynsham to Southmead Hosp
Ser 581 was replaced by the new First 81 Yate to Kingswood (though the route does differ in several respects)
Sers 482/3 were replaced by new First 82 Yate to Southmead Hosp
Ser 689 was replaced by new First X49 Bristol to Yate via Pucklechurch
Ser X27 was to be replaced by new First X46 Bristol to Yate but then, as you say, Wessex registered it commercially and reduced the fares!

All are commercial registrations by First. Some, on the face of it, look quite daring! I used to live in that part of the city (now I'm a country squire ) but was working around the area and it's really noticeable how it's gone from being a border zone to being very much First with a few Wessex tenders.

TheGrandWazoo,

The Stagecoach 38, yes that one. First then have the 27 x E400's coming to Rusholme, which I assume will be for Wilmslow Road routes. And then will First retaliate against with Stagecoach's 38???

First could take on the commercial services currently operated by JPT if that op does collapse.

Re: Wessex.

Simon Dunn confirmed that the loss of tendered routes in the Yate area resulted in loss of 6 buses worth of work. Interesting that they weren't re-deployed elsewhere in the region rather than bringing them up to the West Mids

 

[freetoview33]

Well considering at the same time Wessex withdrew two commercial services the 3 and X40

 

[winston270twm]

Well considering at the same time Wessex withdrew two commercial services the 3 and X40

& Considering First have brought 11 x Dart?Marshall in to operate the routes.

So far, Wessex fleet moves that have happened during April are as follows:

30007-30011 VDL/Plaxton (I think most/if not all of these have now moved up to Diamond in the West Mids)
30816 B7RLE/Plaxton to Diamond (Long Acre)
40007 Trident to Preston Bus

During that period, 2 x Wright Streetlites DF & 2 x B9TL/Wright Gemini have entered service, so it's not yet clear exactly how many buses have been made redundant by the First Bristol moves

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

My list shows 47501-47512 were all due at Great Yarmouth, BBP has them split between Great Yarmouth & Norwich.

You can understand a few minor allocation changes, but it seems there are still fairly decent quantities being re-allocated around the group

According to Norwich Bus Blog, and an interview with Chris Speed who's Ops Mngr at FEC (I think) on Tuesday, FEC is getting 12 Streetlites - 6 for Norwich and 6 for either GY or Ipswich.

 

[winston270twm]

According to Norwich Bus Blog, and an interview with Chris Speed who's Ops Mngr at FEC (I think) on Tuesday, FEC is getting 12 Streetlites - 6 for Norwich and 6 for either GY or Ipswich.

Hmmm, that then contradicts the latest list which has the Norwich ones now going to Worcester

 

[swifty]

So far the buses surplus to requirements are being cascaded up to the West Midlands 5 x 07 plate VDL/Plaxton Centro's & a couple more B7RLE/Plaxton Centro's. Wessex have presently chosen not to re-deploy the buses made redundant on to other /new routes in competition with First.

If First ever managed to get in with UWE, Bristol that would certainly hurt the Wessex business.

At least one of the Volvo/Centros that went up to Diamond and was painted blue is now back in Bristol with Wessex logos, 30004 maybe?

Wessex have until August 2016 when the 5 year contract ends with UWE, maybe even later of there is an extension period as well.

 

[winston270twm]

At least one of the Volvo/Centros that went up to Diamond and was painted blue is now back in Bristol with Wessex logos, 30004 maybe?

Thanks Swifty,

Wessex have until August 2016 when the 5 year contract ends with UWE, maybe even later of there is an extension period as well.

Some of that batch transferred up to the West Midlands last summer & were repainted allover blue & allocated to Long Acre depot, some were then promptly returned to Wessex due to an increase in workload I think 30000 stayed, at least another has transferred in the last few months and two fleetlists I've seen have 30004 as in Birmingham @ Long Acre?

The UWE work for Wessex sounds pretty safe at present, but First may well go after that when it comes up for renewal. First do seem to be turned the heat up on Wessex, pushing them out of Yate so far

 

[freetoview33]

But does First have the capacity in Bristol to even handle the additional buses to even go after the contract if they wanted. From what I gather LH is full up.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But does First have the capacity in Bristol to even handle the additional buses to even go after the contract if they wanted. From what I gather LH is full up.

There are a number of things that they could do. The simplest thing is to re-hire the parking area adjacent to LH depot (part of the old central works) which used to house the MH fleet.

Alternatively, they could reopen MR as a parking area (assuming that BCC don't sell it for redevelopment any time soon). Most likely, a secure compound to park vehicles with maintenance undertaken at LH or HE.

More extreme measures might be the reallocation of some routes (the 17 to Bath depot) but that's getting trickier. The obvious things have been done already.

 

[winston270twm]

At least one of the Volvo/Centros that went up to Diamond and was painted blue is now back in Bristol with Wessex logos, 30004 maybe?

Wessex have until August 2016 when the 5 year contract ends with UWE, maybe even later of there is an extension period as well.

Simon Dunn has confirmed on another forum that the UWE contract runs for 8 years & was signed two years ago, so there doesn't seem any likely hood of First getting hold of that work anytime soon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

& Considering First have brought 11 x Dart?Marshall in to operate the routes.

So far, Wessex fleet moves that have happened during April are as follows:

30007-30011 VDL/Plaxton (I think most/if not all of these have now moved up to Diamond in the West Mids)
30816 B7RLE/Plaxton to Diamond (Long Acre)
40007 Trident to Preston Bus

During that period, 2 x Wright Streetlites DF & 2 x B9TL/Wright Gemini have entered service, so it's not yet clear exactly how many buses have been made redundant by the First Bristol moves

Simon Dunn confirmed that seven larger single deckers would be transferring up to the Midlands from Wessex, however in the latest edition of Routeone Rotala are advertising all 8 x 2009 plate E200's for sale, I'm awaiting a response to my questions on why these are leaving Wessex & not being cascaded elsewhere within group

 

[swifty]

Simon Dunn has confirmed on another forum that the UWE contract runs for 8 years & was signed two years ago, so there doesn't seem any likely hood of First getting hold of that work anytime soon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmm that's not the same as the purchasing team at UWE say! And the Centro was 30004, BX07AXO, it was on the 13.

It's also interesting to note that he's not to bothered about the loss of the bulk of their tendered work in South Glos!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are a number of things that they could do. The simplest thing is to re-hire the parking area adjacent to LH depot (part of the old central works) which used to house the MH fleet.

Alternatively, they could reopen MR as a parking area (assuming that BCC don't sell it for redevelopment any time soon). Most likely, a secure compound to park vehicles with maintenance undertaken at LH or HE.

More extreme measures might be the reallocation of some routes (the 17 to Bath depot) but that's getting trickier. The obvious things have been done already.

As you say re-hiring the old MH parking are would be the easiest option, although couldn't the bus station be used for some degree of overnight parking?

I was under the impression that the only reason that First continue to use MR for storage is so that under the terms of the lease BCC can't kick them out and let another operator use the depot?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Hmm that's not the same as the purchasing team at UWE say! And the Centro was 30004, BX07AXO, it was on the 13.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


As you say re-hiring the old MH parking are would be the easiest option, although couldn't the bus station be used for some degree of overnight parking?

I was under the impression that the only reason that First continue to use MR for storage is so that under the terms of the lease BCC can't kick them out and let another operator use the depot?

Bus station is a possibility that I hadn't thought of. Still, the old MH yard is still the best option esp now there aren't three elderly Darts in there now! And yep, your line about MR corresponds with what I understand. First have a lease, pay a peppercorn for it so costs them virtually nothing, and BCC can't evict them. I'd "guess" that First might be looking for a payment to vacate?

As for the UWE, it may be that that both you and Winston are right. It may well be an 8 year deal but with a break clause? In these instances AND I DON'T KNOW THE FACTS IN THIS CASE but usually this allows a retender and if a change of supplier occurs, then a payment might be payable to the unlucky incumbent.

Of course, the First strategy might be to undermine the Wessex business so that they exit some or all of their Bristol/Bath activities.