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First Group: General Discussion

Goldfish62

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TGW,

Totally agree, in my mind they should have never sold off London in the first place, which has resulted in the loss of midlife cascades within.

UK Bus, Transit & Student should all remain intact, I think Greyhound (being non core) should be sacrificed to get debt down & speed up the turnaround plan within UK bus & achieve double digit margins.

As has been pointed by a number of posters before, operators do not want to be saddled with the burden of cascading non - standard knackered ex London stuff to the rest of the country. This is why Stagecoach now leases all its new London fleet and none of it will ever reach other Stagecoach subsidiaries.
 
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winston270twm

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As has been pointed by a number of posters before, operators do not want to be saddled with the burden of cascading non - standard knackered ex London stuff to the rest of the country. This is why Stagecoach now leases all its new London fleet and none of it will ever reach other Stagecoach subsidiaries.

Individual operators do not have a choice on what they receive if Group says so. First cascaded the vast majority of everything leaving London. Arriva still cascade a large proportion of buses leaving London as well. Go-Ahead do to some of the provinces such as Plymouth / East Anglia

The knackered more modern ex London buses you refer too are still far better than some of the stuff First is still running both step entry, early low floor non DDA deckers. Take the 35 x 58 plate E400's ex London that went in to Leicester, with some having moved on to Bristol recently. 53 Plate Gemini's to Bristol, 53 plate Tridents to Glasgow & Buses of Somerset all ex London which have been used to add much needed capacity & modernize the decker fleets.

Stagecoach have cascaded a number of Tridents to a few subsidiaries, whilst selling others via Ensign. First are not in the luxurious position of being too picky & choosey compared to Stagecoach, largely due to years of under investment
 
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ChrisPJ

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First can if they wish buy "midlife" ex London stock from dealers to "modernise" ageing regional fleets. They've done it before eg there was a large batch of ex London United Olympians sent up to Leeds that were so lightly refurbished they didn't even have the exit doors panelled over.

I hope they don't though. It only creates an imbalance in the fleet profile that'll cause problems later on. They seem to have got away with it in West Yorks but I strongly believe the relentless cascading of older stock to marginal depots has been a major factor in the eventual sale or closure of some operations.
 

Volvodart

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If I had been them I would have entered into an agreement with the London operations sold which do not have other operations to have first refusal of the First interior buses that come up for disposal.
 

Surreyman

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As has been pointed by a number of posters before, operators do not want to be saddled with the burden of cascading non - standard knackered ex London stuff to the rest of the country. This is why Stagecoach now leases all its new London fleet and none of it will ever reach other Stagecoach subsidiaries.

Except that a trickle of ex London Tridents has been cascaded to some Stagecoach subsidiaries!
(Some of the newer Tridents have been 'bought-back' from the leasing company).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
First can if they wish buy "midlife" ex London stock from dealers to "modernise" ageing regional fleets. They've done it before eg there was a large batch of ex London United Olympians sent up to Leeds that were so lightly refurbished they didn't even have the exit doors panelled over.

I hope they don't though. It only creates an imbalance in the fleet profile that'll cause problems later on. They seem to have got away with it in West Yorks but I strongly believe the relentless cascading of older stock to marginal depots has been a major factor in the eventual sale or closure of some operations.

They are already creating an 'imbalance' by upgrading older V/W/X reg vehicles to DDA standards, ok I am sure that the cost per vehicle isn't huge but when it comes to replacement they may decide to retain these vehicles for an extra couple of years and replace Y & 51 reg buses in a worse mechanical condition.
 

Tetchytyke

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Except that a trickle of ex London Tridents has been cascaded to some Stagecoach subsidiaries!

They have, but those tend to be the older ones (51/52 plate) which pre-date the sale of the London business to Macquarie Bank. And the cascade hasn't been exactly trouble-free either, the Tridents that went to Cumbria were so knackered they couldn't keep time on the long-distance services.
 

winston270twm

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If I had been them I would have entered into an agreement with the London operations sold which do not have other operations to have first refusal of the First interior buses that come up for disposal.

I totally agree with that statement, although First are nearly there on the DDA single deckers, there is still the double decker fleet to consider & some areas such as Bristol where high levels of growth are being experienced are crying out for extra double deckers of any age.

First should have built the option in to the condition of sale for both Metroline & Tower Transit
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They have, but those tend to be the older ones (51/52 plate) which pre-date the sale of the London business to Macquarie Bank. And the cascade hasn't been exactly trouble-free either, the Tridents that went to Cumbria were so knackered they couldn't keep time on the long-distance services.

Are you sure that wasn't not more to do with engine management being set-up for stop/start London work & speed limiter restrictions?
 

overthewater

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Yet First group claims it has to many deckers in the company, yet as its been said Aberdeen, Glasgow and Bristol etc are crying out for more deckers, it just doesn't make since.
 

GaryMcEwan

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Yet First group claims it has to many deckers in the company, yet as its been said Aberdeen, Glasgow and Bristol etc are crying out for more deckers, it just doesn't make since.

And Glasgow will be crying out for more deckers after the E500's go as apparently the new E400 MMC's are only for the X85/X87 and the 5. So in theory nothing is going to replace the missing E500's.
 

Goldfish62

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Individual operators do not have a choice on what they receive if Group says so. First cascaded the vast majority of everything leaving London. Arriva still cascade a large proportion of buses leaving London as well. Go-Ahead do to some of the provinces such as Plymouth / East Anglia

The knackered more modern ex London buses you refer too are still far better than some of the stuff First is still running both step entry, early low floor non DDA deckers. Take the 35 x 58 plate E400's ex London that went in to Leicester, with some having moved on to Bristol recently. 53 Plate Gemini's to Bristol, 53 plate Tridents to Glasgow & Buses of Somerset all ex London which have been used to add much needed capacity & modernize the decker fleets.

Stagecoach have cascaded a number of Tridents to a few subsidiaries, whilst selling others via Ensign. First are not in the luxurious position of being too picky & choosey compared to Stagecoach, largely due to years of under investment

I can only repeat that operators in general do not want to be saddled with ex London cascades. I didn't say they don't do such cascades. They do that because they have no choice. Yes, Stagecoach have cascaded buses, but if you read what I said, they won't be cascading any new buses. Fact. Yes, all the buses you mention have been cascaded from London, the newest being among the last for London that First bought instead of leased. You have to appreciate that London spec vehicles are increasingly so different from standard models that the cost of conversion is ever increasing.
 
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ChrisPJ

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I can't see First wanting to re acquire London spec buses after a few more years of intensive use and general wear in the capital. They should be focusing on brand new stock all over the country to sort the age profile out.
 

winston270twm

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I can only repeat that operators in general do not want to be saddled with ex London cascades. I didn't say they don't do such cascades. They do that because they have no choice. Yes, Stagecoach have cascaded buses, but if you read what I said, they won't be cascading any new buses. Fact. Yes, all the buses you mention have been cascaded from London, the newest being among the last for London that First bought instead of leased. You have to appreciate that London spec vehicles are increasingly so different from standard models that the cost of conversion is ever increasing.

I agree there would be fewer cascades possibilities going forward, as more London operators are turning to leasing rather than buying & then of course Tfl are supplying the Borismasters to operators.

I'm aware of the differences between London spec and provincial spec, conversions costs and only worth considering if the vehicle is midlife / can recoup the conversion costs over remaining life.

I notice Tower Transit are currently cascading 4 x DMC's & VNZ's to Whippet
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I can't see First wanting to re acquire London spec buses after a few more years of intensive use and general wear in the capital. They should be focusing on brand new stock all over the country to sort the age profile out.

They should be buying brand new buses, but you'll notice the initial order for new buses in 2014 was for 425 (extra were added due to acquisition of Finglands), for the 2015 this has dropped to 385 new buses
 

mbonwick

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They have, but those tend to be the older ones (51/52 plate) which pre-date the sale of the London business to Macquarie Bank. And the cascade hasn't been exactly trouble-free either, the Tridents that went to Cumbria were so knackered they couldn't keep time on the long-distance services.

The vehicles that have been cascaded out of Stagecoach London so far are the ones that Macquarie didn't sell and lease back to raise finance (whether it's a case of wouldn't or couldn't is debatable).

It's probably worth noting that (unlike First from what I can tell), Stagecoach London is held/owned/managed separately to UK Bus (their provincial operations), so any potential vehicle cascade is considered in financial terms against a sale to an outside party. (In essence, a provincial Stagecoach company looking for a cascade is told "here's the price the dealers are offering - equal or better it"). There's no "forcing" of vehicles onto operations - but they may well be told "ex-London (or indeed any specific vehicles) are all that's available - take it or leave it.

The Cumbrian Tridents you refer to are a bit of a red herring. Those that kept breaking and being generally useless were the S-BWC batch which, while being ex-London, were cascaded out a decade ago. I'd say it's unfair to attribute their poor performance to their life in London, and would firmly suggest that it is down to specification (3-speed gearboxes and low speed differentials are not conducive to sustained high-speed running) and age.

That said, the more recent London cascades to Cumbria (now open toppers) have proved troublesome, though this is more a simple case of reliability.
 

Surreyman

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The vehicles that have been cascaded out of Stagecoach London so far are the ones that Macquarie didn't sell and lease back to raise finance (whether it's a case of wouldn't or couldn't is debatable).

It's probably worth noting that (unlike First from what I can tell), Stagecoach London is held/owned/managed separately to UK Bus (their provincial operations), so any potential vehicle cascade is considered in financial terms against a sale to an outside party. (In essence, a provincial Stagecoach company looking for a cascade is told "here's the price the dealers are offering - equal or better it"). There's no "forcing" of vehicles onto operations - but they may well be told "ex-London (or indeed any specific vehicles) are all that's available - take it or leave it.

The Cumbrian Tridents you refer to are a bit of a red herring. Those that kept breaking and being generally useless were the S-BWC batch which, while being ex-London, were cascaded out a decade ago. I'd say it's unfair to attribute their poor performance to their life in London, and would firmly suggest that it is down to specification (3-speed gearboxes and low speed differentials are not conducive to sustained high-speed running) and age.

That said, the more recent London cascades to Cumbria (now open toppers) have proved troublesome, though this is more a simple case of reliability.

MBonwick; - Thanks for the explanation.
May partly explain why the Polish bodied Scania D/decks haven't been 'cascaded' to other Stagecoach subsidiaries?
 

mbonwick

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The omnicities are interesting; the first batches were bought outright by Macquarie (but may subsequently have been sold & leased back, it's not clear), while later batches were financed via Scania themselves as ELBG no longer had the funds to purchase outright. Allegedly they got a rather good finance deal from Scania on the Omnicities - presumably Scania saw it as a good way to promote their product as ultimately ELBG took 174 vehicles.

Anyway, finances aside, (as they could easily be bought from the leaseco and cascaded if Stagecoach really wanted to) there are a number of engineering reasons that they're not popular;
1. The engine/rear layout isn't conducive to easy maintainence
2. They're a non-standard body in group terms, and the manufacturing quality leaves a fair bit to be desired.
3. Conversion to single door actually requires a fair bit of structural work to be carried out to ensure that the lower deck floor is supported and the bodyside doesn't sag.

The basic rule of thumb to go by with Stagecoach London is anything newer than 53 plate is leased, with anything older than 53 plate being owned outright.
(That said there is doubt over the 03/53 reg batch of Tridents and Darts, and 18201-20/32/33 have been bought back from the leaseco)
 

ChrisPJ

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That explains why HCT took the easy option and left the exit door in place on the Scania deckers they transferred to Jersey this summer.
 

Hophead

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3. Conversion to single door actually requires a fair bit of structural work to be carried out to ensure that the lower deck floor is supported and the bodyside doesn't sag.

Don't know if you can help, but is this a general problem, or something that is specific to TfL's current spec for external sliding centre doors? It seems to me, as someone who knows little about vehicle engineering, that it'd be a harder job to convert the current design.
 

mbonwick

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I'm not overly familiar with all the different implementatons of the centre doors etc. I don't think that TfLs latest whim has much (if any) effect on future door removal.

In the case of ADL bodies, the bracing between to chassis 'bays' is removed to fit the ramp, but all other pieces are the same as the single door version.
The particular problem with the Scania is that more floor supports are missing due to the placement of the ramp, and the framing above the door is different/missing.

In most cases, the doors can simply be removed as a unit (or variations thereof) - the main issues come from what is left once that unit is removed.
 

Surreyman

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Skimming the latest presentation to the city, I see that they are being moderately confident about reaching the 10% margin on UK Bus soon:



Apparently they have not yet got the full benefit of recent fuel price reductions.

If the various proposals for Tendered/Franchised/Re-Regulated bus networks go ahead, I suspect that the target of a 10% margin will simply not happen.
Ok the legislation hasn't been passed yet and we don't know the full details or indeed how individual Authorities will choose to exercise their new found powers but First Bus UKs presence in so many areas that have applied for devolved powers is considerable: -
Aberdeen
Manchester
Leeds Region/Yorkshire/"Northern Powerhouse"
York/North Yorkshire/East Riding
Sheffield City Region
Leicester & Leicestershire
Norfolk & Suffolk
Greater Essex
Worcestershire
West of England
Heart of the Southwest
Cornwall
Dorset
Hants & IOW
 

Baxenden Bank

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First Potteries had a 'Black Friday' offer. Whilst I'm not one to go for such marketing normally, sometimes the offer is actually worth having. :D

Amazing offers on yearly tickets on Black Friday - 27 November
Save an amazing 50% on yearly tickets on Black Friday - that's 12 months travel for the price of 6! Be quick though - these offers are available for one day only.

Take up was steady - some people queuing before the travel office opened but no need for security guards!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the various proposals for Tendered/Franchised/Re-Regulated bus networks go ahead, I suspect that the target of a 10% margin will simply not happen.
Ok the legislation hasn't been passed yet and we don't know the full details or indeed how individual Authorities will choose to exercise their new found powers but First Bus UKs presence in so many areas that have applied for devolved powers is considerable: -
Aberdeen
Manchester
Leeds Region/Yorkshire/"Northern Powerhouse"
York/North Yorkshire/East Riding
Sheffield City Region
Leicester & Leicestershire
Norfolk & Suffolk
Greater Essex
Worcestershire
West of England
Heart of the Southwest
Cornwall
Dorset
Hants & IOW

I'm not involved in the bus industry, but just as a thought, why would 10% not be considered an adequate return as part of the negotiations / calculations for the new system?

In the house-building industry, where public money is being invested to support a scheme, a developers profit margin of 20% is regarded as acceptable.
 
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Robertj21a

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First Potteries had a 'Black Friday' offer. Whilst I'm not one to go for such marketing normally, sometimes the offer is actually worth having. :D



Take up was steady - some people queuing before the travel office opened but no need for security guards!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I just hope First Potteries is still there in 12 month's time.......

:roll:
 

Baxenden Bank

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I just hope First Potteries is still there in 12 month's time.......

:roll:

I had thought of that.

If the company is taken over, I would expect all passes to be honoured. They should, somewhere, be in the accounts as a creditor / future liability, to be taken into account by any purchaser and reflected in the purchase price. If the company goes into some kind of administration / liquidation then the risk is that I become (one of many) unsecured creditors with not a lot of chance of recovering my money. Having said that, the successor to the business, even if they brought in their own buses, staff and everything would see minimal custom from me as a result - until I had recouped my losses by avoiding travel! Regardless of the legalities, it would be good business practice to honour my pass, or accept it at a much reduced rate (e.g. equivalent to the pensioner rate 50p per journey) in order to retain the goodwill of customers. First gave free travel to Western Greyhound passholders after their fire and the subsequent buy-out / collapse - even though they would not have received any recompense in either case.

Rumours of potential failure, and the loss of supplier / customer confidence is a key thing all businesses must avoid. Hence shareholders/ investors / parent holding companies promising undying support for their business even whilst, at the same time, lining up administrators and arranging pre-pack buyouts. Think of a parcel delivery company last Christmas as a good example.

As suggested below!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Don't worry. Stagecoach have always accepted First tickets until the date of expiry following takeover...
 
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Goldfish62

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If the various proposals for Tendered/Franchised/Re-Regulated bus networks go ahead, I suspect that the target of a 10% margin will simply not happen.
Ok the legislation hasn't been passed yet and we don't know the full details or indeed how individual Authorities will choose to exercise their new found powers but First Bus UKs presence in so many areas that have applied for devolved powers is considerable: -
Aberdeen
Manchester
Leeds Region/Yorkshire/"Northern Powerhouse"
York/North Yorkshire/East Riding
Sheffield City Region
Leicester & Leicestershire
Norfolk & Suffolk
Greater Essex
Worcestershire
West of England
Heart of the Southwest
Cornwall
Dorset
Hants & IOW

You can knock Cornwall off that list. They've said they're don't intend to pursue it.
https://www.transportxtra.com/publi...e-don-t-plan-to-franchise-buses-says-cornwall
 

the101

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And why wouldn't First Potteries, still be there in 12-months ?

Have you seen the state of its operation and how much money is needed to bring it up to anything above the mode of last resort? Interest will be lost by the powers that be sooner or later, or in an extreme situation the whole lot could be ceded to D&G, although D&G is certainly not without its faults.
 

DD12

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In the house-building industry, where public money is being invested to support a scheme, a developers profit margin of 20% is regarded as acceptable.

A good perspective, thank you Baxenden Bank.
- Why would any business "bother" unless they can be reasonably sure of making (earning) an average real profit of 10%, and when there are so many difficulties and pitfalls for bus operators ?
 

overthewater

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Is it just my imagination or is Giles Fearnley surprisingly quiet of late ?

Is it my imagination or is talk of Muss depot closing down surprisingly quiet of late :lol: :oops::oops:

To be fair what does Giles have to say? you never heard Brian in the papers every month.

I had the delight of being able to look in the accounts for the past 20 years on the beta for the new company house website. I can't believe First Scotland east (The two assets) was making £6 million profit up to March 2000 before the bus war. (01 half a million, 02 losses etc) One has to wonder if someone never got greedy and just left well along, what might have been.

I would suggest looking back at your own local First company, to see which year caused all the trouble.
 

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