First will not take over West Coast from December

[LNW-GW Joint]

What about the additional calls and connections for MKC and Nuneaton that Virgin and First both had in their old bids? Is any of that likely to happen before Nov 2014?

That's what the 10th path was supposed to deliver, as well as calls at CRE/WBQ/WGN.
But it needs a timetable review to cover all the fallout (eg LM's plans).
Then there's the Open Access world (Alliance/GC) to consider.
ORR has stalled for a couple of years on all this, waiting for the new long franchise to start.
There will be plenty of industry folk who will be annoyed that things have gone off at half-cock (again) on the WCML.
Ministers making off-the-cuff decisions doesn't help long-term planning.

 

[Wolfie]

It's not Virgin Trains, it's Branson.

As I understand it Virgin Trains is owned 51% by Virgin Group and 49% by Stagecoach. Branson can decide what happens to any profits due to the former but has no control over any money due to the latter.....

 

[HH]

As I understand it Virgin Trains is owned 51% by Virgin Group and 49% by Stagecoach. Branson can decide what happens to any profits due to the former but has no control over any money due to the latter.....

Your understanding is slightly lacking. Virgin Trains is 100% owned by Virgin Rail Group. VRG is 49% owned by Stagecoach and 51% by Virgin Management. VM is Richard Branson. Branson can decide what he does with VM's money; Stagecoach decide what they do with theirs; but VT, and indeed VRG, is not giving money to charity; there's no "we" here.

There must have been some interesting conversations between the "partners".

 

[Zoe]

Also the comment about Brian Souter, Stagecoach is a public company so I wouldn't have thought he could make that decision on his own. He doesn't own all the shares.

 

[tbtc]

Shame that Mr Souter wasn't as generous.....

Also the comment about Brian Souter, Stagecoach is a public company so I wouldn't have thought he could make that decision on his own. He doesn't own all the shares.

True - can't imagine the Stagecoach shareholders (pension funds etc) being too chuffed at Souter giving away tens of millions of pounds of their money to charity without any prior agreement.

If this two year deal does get £60m in profits (based on the past year) then I'd rather that this £60m was used for transport improvements, of course. But where's the good PR in that?

(does "renewable energy investments" include ways of making short haul flights from London to Manchester greener?)

 

[HH]

The deal is for a 1% management fee; that means about £10m p.a. Although there is talk of a move to revised, "commercial" terms at a later date.

 

[Aictos]

Left to themselves, VT would not run to either Blackpool or Shrewsbury without new tilting stock being available, or they will have to steal some from other existing WC services.
There will be a net increase of 2x390 next year when the H3 upgrades are finished, but nobody has confirmed what new services they will be used on.
Best guess is the "10th path" Euston-Preston calling at Crewe, Warrington and Wigan and allowing the Glasgows to run non-stop to Preston.
Some of these could continue to Lancaster or Blackpool, but would need 57s if introduced to Blackpool before the wires are up (May 2016).
But this needs a timetable revision to be agreed and there are other competing priorities for the paths.
At one time it was supposed to follow the Norton Bridge remodelling (which increases capacity through Stafford) which is not confirmed yet in CP5.

The very simplest way to start a train from Blackpool would be to send the current 0535 Lancaster starter (221) to Blackpool instead, but that is hardly likely to placate the politicians or locals.
Another way would be to use the extra 390s on Birmingham-Scotland services instead and displace a few 221s for a Blackpool/Shrewsbury service.
And if you are not careful you will replace a current 11-car 390 from Preston with a 5-car 221 and annoy another lot of people.
I'm not sure Blackpool can currently handle an 11-car 390 (maybe not even a 9-car, or a 10-car 221), and the intermediate stations certainly can't.
The Blackpool setup will of course change after electrification, but the solution for Shrewsbury will have to be long-term.

As VT are now on a management contract the costs of new services will lie with DfT, but I don't expect there is an open cheque book.
They would probably plump for new mini-Pendolinos with new locos off the wires, but that won't happen before the next full franchise.

Blackpool North according to Network Rail RUS documents can accept a 10 car train which is 10 x 23m or more.

So yeah I guess a pair of 221s could be used on the Blackpool North branch even if SDO is used on the stations between Blackpool and Preston.

 

[snail]

So yeah I guess a pair of 221s could be used on the Blackpool North branch even if SDO is used on the stations between Blackpool and Preston.

What makes you think it would stop at Poulton and Kirkham? It's an express to London not a fill in for local services.

 

[calc7]

What makes you think it would stop at Poulton and Kirkham? It's an express to London not a fill in for local services.

that made me chuckle. Couldn't agree more.

 

[Philip Elliott]

There will be a net increase of 2x390 next year when the H3 upgrades are finished, but nobody has confirmed what new services they will be used on

No there won't be. Overhauls are done using existing maintenance downtime which is true for any operator. How did you think the West Coast operator would carry out the H4 overhauls, reduce the timetable or procure more stock?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No there won't be. Overhauls are done using existing maintenance downtime which is true for any operator. How did you think the West Coast operator would carry out the H4 overhauls, reduce the timetable or procure more stock?

Are you saying that a net four extra Pendolinos are already in service?
In which case VT can't run any extra trains beyond what is in next week's timetable (hourly Glasgow etc).

 

[Philip Elliott]

Remember one replaces 033 'City of Glasgow'.

There is some scope for additional services but no additional unit diagrams.

 

[kieron]

The SoS was careful not to say too much about the Shrewsbury service, not even agreeing it would call at Wellington or Telford.
(You could get a token through service to Shrewsbury by detaching a 221 from a Chester service at Crewe).

You could get a token service to Shrewsbury by extending the token Wrexham service. As the train goes empty to Crewe from there, it may not take much longer if reversing in Shrewsbury is a bit quicker than Wrexham.

The obvious snag is that it would be overtaken by another service in both directions.

 

[Aictos]

What makes you think it would stop at Poulton and Kirkham? It's an express to London not a fill in for local services.

I am aware of what a Express service should be, I could refer you to the local stations that certain other IC TOCs stop at when existing local services are good enough

I never said they would stop at these stations just the fact that IF Virgin Trains wanted to introduce a daily Blackpool service and they wanted to call at these stations then they could use SDO, I never said they would be calling at these stations!

 

[island]

Remember one replaces 033 'City of Glasgow'.

There is some scope for additional services but no additional unit diagrams.

Will the Pretendo be retired?

 

[Eagle]

Will the Pretendo be retired?

Yes (save for charters, specials and emergencies).

 

[SprinterMan]

Will the Pretendo be retired?

It will remain at Wembley as a spare, but won't be used on the FO 1843 EUS-CRE anymore. Also, the spare buffet car and DVT (82101) will returned to Porterbrook and stored.

Adam

 

[DXMachina]

I wouldnt be too surprised if mk3s and 90s end up on the GWML briefly until more suitable stock is available for fast Oxfords and Newburys

 

[D365]

Shame that it won't be used by Greater Anglia to replace the 321-booked Norwich fast..

 

[87015]

Shame that it won't be used by Greater Anglia to replace the 321-booked Norwich fast..

How many times does it need to be said - there is no need, way or will to get a hauled set on the 1702 Norwich. The train only exists north of Ipswich to allow the 1700 down to skip stops and be sped up. Its prime purpose is to be the 1702 Liverpool St - Ipswich and move lots of people to places south of there, and you couldn't have a hauled set on that without all sorts of other occurrences - it DOO to Colchester for starters.

The 1930 solely exists as the 321s need to return south, it didn't run prior to the 1702 going through to NR.

 

[eastdyke]

There's only one thing worse than talking about the GEML and that is not talking about the GEML.

Keep asking those questions!

 

[Eagle]

How many times does it need to be said - there is no need, way or will to get a hauled set on the 1702 Norwich. The train only exists north of Ipswich to allow the 1700 down to skip stops and be sped up. Its prime purpose is to be the 1702 Liverpool St - Ipswich and move lots of people to places south of there, and you couldn't have a hauled set on that without all sorts of other occurrences - it DOO to Colchester for starters.

Basically, don't think of it as an anomalous part of the InterCity timetable (which it really isn't, just because it happens to have the same route and same operator). It's an Ipswich local/commuter service that happens to have been extended.

 

[dk1]

The 1930 solely exists as the 321s need to return south, it didn't run prior to the 1702 going through to NR.

Original plan was for the 17.02 to terminate Stowmarket but due to volume of passenger & freight traffic on both roads at that time of night it wasnt possible to reverse & hence the 19.30 up

 

[HH]

How many times does it need to be said - there is no need, way or will to get a hauled set on the 1702 Norwich. The train only exists north of Ipswich to allow the 1700 down to skip stops and be sped up. Its prime purpose is to be the 1702 Liverpool St - Ipswich and move lots of people to places south of there, and you couldn't have a hauled set on that without all sorts of other occurrences - it DOO to Colchester for starters.

Plus it existed before it was extended to Norwich, when IIRC it ran fast to Kelvedon (allegedly the heritage of someone important using the train).

 

[WCMLaddict]

I think this is an interesting read from Christian Wolmar
http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2012/10/west-coast-franchising-chaos-has-its-roots-in-history/

On a side note from his blog. National Express successful bid for Gatwick Express had 8 pages. Just wow ....

 

[HH]

I've seen some of those initial bids. They're not exactly at the pinnacle of competitive tendering. Just as well there wasn't a recession in 1998 rather than 2008...

 

[AndyLandy]

It seems that Virgin Trains would welcome input on how they can improve their service...

http://mediaroom.virgintrains.co.uk/2012/12/help-shape-our-future.html?m=1

 

[Roverman]

our share of profit

can't see how they've not kept their side of the bargain?

 

[Wath Yard]

Another pointless PR stunt to grab some headlines and confuse the gullible. It's a management contract. They'll run trains to where the DfT tells them to.

 

[transmanche]

Another pointless PR stunt to grab some headlines and confuse the gullible. It's a management contract. They'll run trains to where the DfT tells them to.

Although if you had clicked the link, you'd have realised that this is really all about the next franchise - beyond 2014...