• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

First will not take over West Coast from December

Status
Not open for further replies.

387star

On Moderation
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
6,663
[Please continue discussion in here regarding the announcement today affecting the West Coast franchise. For reference, the old thread can be found here.]

Looks like Branson has succeeded where others have failed with the discovery of significant flaws affecting the franchising process and so the new franchise is starting to look very hazy
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

craigwilson

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2010
Messages
424
Location
Buxton, Derbyshire
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19809717

West Coast Main Line deal with FirstGroup scrapped

The decision to award the West Coast Main Line rail franchise to FirstGroup has been scrapped and the government says the bidding process must be rerun.

Ministers say there were "significant technical flaws" in the way the risks for each bid were calculated.

They have also ordered two independent reviews into what happened.

FirstGroup, which beat current operator Virgin Trains to win the 13-year deal, said it had submitted its bid correctly and was "disappointed" at the news.

Writing on his blog, Virgin founder Sir Richard Branson welcomed the move, adding that he was hopeful ministers would "now accept that Virgin Trains should carry on running the West Coast Main Line".

BBC transport correspondent Richard Westcott said the implications of the decision to scrap the deal went much further than just the West Coast Main Line.

There were about 15 rail franchises due to be decided before the next general election and the whole franchising process could now be thrown into doubt, he added.

The August announcement that FirstGroup would take over train services on the line - one of Britain's busiest - in December had sparked a legal challenge from Virgin, which has run the franchise since 1997.

The Department for Transport said because of the decision to rerun the bidding process it would no longer be contesting the judicial review launched by Virgin Trains in the High Court.

And it said an announcement would be made about the suspension of staff while investigations were carried out.

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin described the mistakes made by his department as "deeply regrettable and completely unacceptable".

He said: "A detailed examination by my officials into what happened has revealed these flaws, and means it is no longer acceptable to award a new franchise on the basis of the competition that was held.

"West Coast passengers can rest assured that while we seek urgently to resolve the future arrangements the trains that run now will continue to run with the same drivers, the same staff and timetables as planned."

He said one review would examine how the West Coast franchise competition went wrong, and what lessons could be learned.

The other review would look into the wider Department for Transport rail franchise programme, he added.

'Frank announcement'
FirstGroup said that it had had "no indication" of any problems with the franchising process until it was contacted by the Department for Transport.

"We are extremely disappointed to learn this news, and await the outcome of the DfT's inquiries," the company said.

"The DfT has made it clear to us that we are in no way at fault, having followed the due process correctly. We submitted a strong bid, in good faith and in strict accordance with the DfT's terms."

In a statement, Virgin Trains welcomed what it described as the transport secretary's "frank announcement" that the contest was flawed.

It said: "We are ready to play a full part in assisting the review to help deliver a franchising system that better serves passengers, taxpayers and the interests of all bidders."

Labour MP Louise Ellman, who is chairman of the Commons Transport Select Committee, described it as "absolutely astonishing".

he said: "I'm going to recall the secretary of state and the permanent secretary to the Transport Select Committee, to question them about just what has gone wrong.

"This is really a major issue and a major catastrophe for them."

After learning that his firm had lost the bid in August Sir Richard said he was convinced that civil servants had "got their maths wrong."

He asked that the signing of the contract could be delayed so that the process could be reviewed.

But Justine Greening, who was Transport Secretary at the time, defended what she described as the "robustness of the process".
 

badger1badger

Member
Joined
24 May 2010
Messages
574
Location
Leeds
Looks like Branson has succeeded where others have failed with the discovery of significant flaws affecting the franchising process and so the new franchise is starting to look very hazy

Excellent news - it shows that he who protests sometimes wins

Lets hope they change the processes so a fair system is put in place
 

PR1Berske

Established Member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
3,025
No, it's not excellent news, for crying out loud

It shows the government are scared of upsetting public opinion (for some bizarre reason on this topic of all things) and/or are scared of Richard soddin' Branson.

If they were any kind of government, and I say this as a fully paid up card carrying Liberal Democrat for over 10 years, they wouldn't have got into this mess in the first place

A probable victory for Branson's bullying, I fear.
 

PR1Berske

Established Member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
3,025
The bearded one is very happy on twitter :)

He's effectively bullied the Government into changing their mind, of course he's happy

Sorry, I just think he should have just accepted the decision. He's an unelected millionaire, not an MP.
 

jnjkerbin

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2012
Messages
842
Location
Down south
I would say that there's somethimg other than the economic risks influencing the government... I wouldn't be surprised if a certain someone makes donations to the Tory party.

Joe
 

Skimble19

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2009
Messages
1,503
Location
London
The funny thing is he STILL won't be running the franchise from December.. Looks like DOR will now be doing what people have said for years "isn't possible": running the East and West coast!
 

neilm

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2012
Messages
499
No he won't but if you read the guardians article:

"These flaws stem from the way the level of risk in the bids was evaluated. Mistakes were made in the way in which inflation and passenger numbers were taken into account, and how much money bidders were then asked to guarantee as a result."

This was where he said it was flawed and the dft has said yes yep you are right, so clearly he may of been.

Will be interesting to see what the independent reviews say.
 

8J

Member
Joined
31 Aug 2009
Messages
666
Of course its a flawed system and I am glad that Branson has made this so clear to the public. Anyone with a trace of economic knowledge should know that inflation will change the value of what is paid significantly. Also, what would be done if the future of the pound is a bleak one? I think that the most realistic bid was indeed Bransons, but we can only wait and see what happens. DOR seems the only fair way at the moment.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
17,374
Location
0036
That's all highly amusing. Is it still going to DOR on 09-DMR though? The article seems to suggest Virgin is holding on.
 

Manchester77

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2012
Messages
2,628
Location
Manchester
The man on bbc was a bit vague. Will they re-run with FG, VT, SNGF and Albellio or will they do a complete re-run where they do new bidders etc?
 

Whistler40145

Established Member
Joined
30 Apr 2010
Messages
6,147
Location
Lancashire
Can you imagine how long this farcical situation could drag on. It's very much like Yes Minister & Yes Prime Minister, an almighty mess!
 

merlodlliw

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
5,852
Location
Wrexham/ Denbighshire /Flintshire triangle
The Govt has stepped in to curtail the DFT, whoose staff have made a right balls of the bids, about time some at the DFT have been suspended.
Some will knock Branson, but if he had not stepped in FWC would have gone bust. The Wales & Borders franchise is an example of DFT staff living in another world with its no growth example.

I have no love for Branson who with ATW teamed up to kill off W/S, but Branson was right too challenge,but we all loose with all the bid £"millions money having to be returned. Some at DFT should be sacked for incompetence, but they will just be shifted to cock up another dept.

At least the taxpayer wont have to pay for removal of VT logos from the trains,another example of waste.

Anyhow we at SCRUA can now tell you of VTs letter to us, this letter gave examples of extra services Chester/Wrexham/Shrewsbury to Euston after Wrexham redoubling one Shrewsbury/Euston via Crewe, but all in the melting pot now,we were asked to keep this confidential after VT responded to our request,
 

Masbroughlad

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2011
Messages
1,706
Location
Midlands
Branson hasn't bullied anyone. He's proved that the system is flawed. That must be good in the long term surely?
 

SkinnyDave

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2012
Messages
1,242
Get DOR to run it and keep both of them

To be fair Branson said that if the government reviewed figures and they worked out he would walk away.
I wonder if Government lawyers looked at legal challenge and didn't like what they saw
 

Ah1479

New Member
Joined
16 Jul 2012
Messages
4
This is not a good day. All Branson has done is set a precedent so now if a company doesn't win a bid, they might as well launch legal challenges. This is going to cost the railway 10 or even 100 of millions of pounds which could be a lot better spent. I fear the worst
 

SkinnyDave

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2012
Messages
1,242
Not really. It shows that his PR muscle works stronger than the civil service.

Eh? Significant flaws have been found and if Branson and co have shown a big spot light on it then that's good in my opinion because quite clearly Civil service ain't doing its job properly in this instance and need maths lessons
 
Last edited:

CC 72100

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2012
Messages
3,819
Unbelievable! Can't quite believe that the whole thing is being looked at again after his protesting. Fair play though Richard, you certainly know how to get your way ;)

Still not quite sure what I think of it, so I'm going to leave it to some of the members and their detailed contributions which I've enjoyed reading so much on the other thread.
 

district

Member
Joined
4 Aug 2011
Messages
1,101
Location
SE16
Well done. Looks like bullies really do succeed. What a message to be sending out.

No, it's not excellent news, for crying out loud

It shows the government are scared of upsetting public opinion (for some bizarre reason on this topic of all things) and/or are scared of Richard soddin' Branson.

If they were any kind of government, and I say this as a fully paid up card carrying Liberal Democrat for over 10 years, they wouldn't have got into this mess in the first place

A probable victory for Branson's bullying, I fear.

This is not a good day. All Branson has done is set a precedent so now if a company doesn't win a bid, they might as well launch legal challenges. This is going to cost the railway 10 or even 100 of millions of pounds which could be a lot better spent. I fear the worst

Agreed entirely with you both.
 

district

Member
Joined
4 Aug 2011
Messages
1,101
Location
SE16
Rather that than a "flawed process" to succeed

Flawed or not, the way Branson went about getting change was awful. I feel like he used his customers to get his own way. People were misled about what a change of operator meant.
A lot of people who signed the petition thought the staff and rolling stock would have changed, and have based their anti-First opinion on experiences with other operators like First Capital Connect - which surely can not be compared with a long distance intercity operator.
 

neilm

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2012
Messages
499
He didn't bully them, the government reacted before the legal challenge came, which means if the government had held their ground it would of been worse for them in the courts. Why? Because it was flawed.
 

SkinnyDave

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2012
Messages
1,242
Flawed or not, the way Branson went about getting change was awful. I feel like he used his customers to get his own way. People were misled about what a change of operator meant.
A lot of people who signed the petition thought the staff and rolling stock would have changed, and have based their anti-First opinion on experiences with other operators like First Capital Connect - which surely can not be compared with a long distance intercity operator.

Not disputing that- but one argument could be what if he didn't do it?

The whole franchising chaos is a disgrace and now they know the public are watching, I don't care if First or Abellio win it in future as long as we don't have another East Coast Fiasco
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top