First will not take over West Coast from December

[Wolfie]

I find it fascinating that folk on here complain that the Standard article is too political given it seems positively anti-Tory (at least the fanatical free market variety) and the normal complaint against the Standard is of pro-Tory bias.....

Yes, the majority owner is an alleged ex-member of the KGB.

Incorrect! The father of the majority owner was a member of the KGB - indeed the owner in a column last week in the Standard said so!

 

[tbtc]

How many staff does a TOC need in the back office?

Presumably a lot of tasks are contracted out to others (marketing, payroll, pensions, cleaning, whatever).

 

[billio]

Yup, it's a witch hunt (even the bit where the current Government gave Virgin the lucrative bits of Northern Rock at a "fire sale" price)

Virgin is actively involved in providing services to the NHS, supporting the government's rush to privatise NHS services. I wonder if this about-face on the WCML is anything to do with this. Certainly Virgin is not out-of-favour with this government, though some people might want you to think it is.

 

[Deerfold]

I find it fascinating that folk on here complain that the Standard article is too political given it seems positively anti-Tory (at least the fanatical free market variety) and the normal complaint against the Standard is of pro-Tory bias.....



Incorrect! The father of the majority owner was a member of the KGB - indeed the owner in a column last week in the Standard said so!

Ah, not alledgedly.

The majority owner is apparently both Alexander Lebedev and his son. His son is chairman. I suspect the money was actually put up by the father though, which is who I was referring to.

 

[HSTEd]

It won't work. TOC HQs are smaller than they were under BR, and smaller still when you compare the far greater number of passengers they now carry. Take any comparable government or quasi-government body and you will find the backoffice staff are roughly double (in terms of ratio to frontline staff). Hell, in hospitals the backoffice outnumbers the Doctors and Nurses.

Everyone knows this to be true. Why therefore do they keep insisting that a reinstated BR would be more efficient?

Ah yes, because of the glorious free market and because teh state is inherently inefficient?
Have you included the vast numbers of DfT staff and the staff at the Office of Rail Regulation who's only job is to try and stop the TOC's staff from embezzling the taxpayer.

A comparable government owned operation to a TOC exists, it is called DOR, now can you present any actual evidence that more staff per passenger mile would actually be required to have DOR East Coast style business units running every franchise, or are you just claiming it is so?

Before anyone starts going on about the "management pyramid", those staff already exist in the current system, its just that since they are not employed by the Train Operating Companies they don't appear in said statistics.

And define "front line staff", I can make the NHS "manager:front line staff ratio" jump all over the park depending on what definitions I use, most of the people the tabloids decry as pointless middle manager "jobsworths" are simply wearing multiple hats.
"Equality Managers" who only do that as a small part of thier job are then included as managers and not as frontline staff, even though they might be a community midwife who only does something relating to equality for a few hours a week.

But this is just socialist propaganda to distract from the glorious efficiency of the free market.

EDIT:

And before you go on about BR requiring more headquarters staff than TOCs.... TOCs only do a tiny fraction of the work done by BR, you would have to include the total number of staff in the industry per train mile ran. Per passenger mile is a stupid measure since I don't need more staff on a train if it is full compared to if it is empty.

Also I doubt that the numbers of staff at TOC headquarters include the endless lawyers kept on retainer to fight legal battles with everyone else, and the same number of staff maintained at Network Rail's expense to defend against endless claims.
And the huge number of staff required to support the "Delay Attributation Board", all of these are structures that only exist to support your "more efficient" private railway.

 

[WillPS]

What is needed is not more Government intervention, but less. The biggest successes as Franchises, in terms of customer benefits, come from the letting by OPRAF/SRA which encouraged entrepreneurial flair by not overspecifying, and by picking based on the offer, not the price.

Successful by what measure? Profit margin for the operator? Length of contract?

For cost to the treasury vs services provided to passengers, I think BR take some beating.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, the majority owner is an alleged ex-member of the KGB.

There was a father and son Lebedev team who took over a 75.1% stake in the Evening Standard in 2009, but it is the son, Evgeny Lebedev, who holds British citizenship and has lived most of his life in Britain, who is the one actively connected with the newspaper in terms of a positional presence there and is a sponsor of Modern Art Theatres in Britain.

Incidentally, he has not forsaken his Russian heritage and together with Mikhail Gorbachev, he set up the Raisa Gorbachev Foundation which supports two paediatric cancer clinics. He also sponsors the Moscow Arts Theatre.

 

[jon0844]

I find it fascinating that folk on here complain that the Standard article is too political given it seems positively anti-Tory (at least the fanatical free market variety) and the normal complaint against the Standard is of pro-Tory bias.....

I think it has changed its political slant since the Daily Mail is no longer (heavily) involved.

 

[Deerfold]

I find it fascinating that folk on here complain that the Standard article is too political given it seems positively anti-Tory (at least the fanatical free market variety) and the normal complaint against the Standard is of pro-Tory bias.....

I'm not sure they're anti-Tory. They seem not to be too keen on Mr Cameron, but they're very pro-Broris. And none too keen on Theresa Villiers by the look of it.

 

[cle]

They're pro gay marriage certainly.

I would say that's because their readership is metropolitan. Still Daily Mail-run Metro would probably be similar, if it had much editorial.

Then again, it could be Evgeny himself...

 

[Wath Yard]

Interesting article in the standard last night
http://www.standard.co.uk/business/...king-down-the-real-rail-culprits-8203849.html

The most interesting aspect of that article is how it describes 15 year franchises as impossible to implement and almost certainly doomed to failure, yet the current ICWC franchise was 15 years and all the press has unquestioningly repeated the Virgin line that it has been an unequivocal success.

 

[WillPS]

The most interesting aspect of that article is how it describes 15 year franchises as impossible to implement and almost certainly doomed to failure, yet the current ICWC franchise was 15 years and all the press has unquestionably repeated the Virgin line that it has been an unequivocal success.

Also, see Chiltern for a case of a line failing.

 

[jon0844]

It does seem that the longer franchises have worked a lot better than the shorter ones! That might be partly down to luck and other factors (the routes, the rolling stock, the state of the lines/signalling) but still.

 

[scandal]

It does seem that the longer franchises have worked a lot better than the shorter ones! That might be partly down to luck and other factors (the routes, the rolling stock, the state of the lines/signalling) but still.

Well we all know how Connex South Eastern (let on a 15 year franchise from 1996-2011) turned out.

 

[dosxuk]

It does seem that the longer franchises have worked a lot better than the shorter ones! That might be partly down to luck and other factors (the routes, the rolling stock, the state of the lines/signalling) but still.

And in the Virgin case, spending lots on marketing, avoiding risks and just getting on with the job, in the hope people don't remember the first half of the franchise.

 

[Geezertronic]

And in the Virgin case, spending lots on marketing, avoiding risks and just getting on with the job, in the hope people don't remember the first half of the franchise.

To be fair, there was a lot of WCML upgrade issues going on at that time that were hardly Virgin's fault. Plus the odd teething issue when the 390s were introduced which I suppose is what every TOC with new trains has to go through (although I don't remember any particular issues with the 220/221s (apart from the bog smell) when they were introduced on VWC & VXC)

 

[WillPS]

Nor were there such issues with 170s, 171s, 172s, 185s, 222s, 333s, 350s, 450s... in fact, the issues with Alstom builds are limited to Alstom!

 

[ainsworth74]

(although I don't remember any particular issues with the 220/221s (apart from the bog smell) when they were introduced on VWC & VXC)

The one thing I can think of is that they didn't get along very well with the Dawlish part of the XC route at the beginning. Though it doesn't sound like it show stopping issue.

 

[SprinterMan]

The one thing I can think of is that they didn't get along very well with the Dawlish part of the XC route at the beginning. Though it doesn't sound like it show stopping issue.

The resistors for the dynamic brakes were on the roof, and throwing seawater at the caused electrical failures. Also, leaves and such fell into them and promptly caught fire as they get quite hot when in use.

Adam

 

[43074]

I found a blog post regarding the whole saga of West Coast. Its a little biased towards Virgin, but:
http://huwsrailpics.weebly.com/3/post/2012/08/still-a-virgin.html

Note the Edit section at the bottom of the post, it summarises the cancellation of the franchise bidding.

 

[Philip Elliott]

I'm not sure what my "agenda" is - maybe you could tell me?

But how come some flows between big cities (Manchester/ Bristol/ Leeds/ Cardiff/ Newcastle) to London have plenty of cheap tickets off-peak despite no real competition*?

And surely there'd still be the very real competition between Birmingham and London on the Chiltern route?

(* - bar a couple of peak EMT services from Neville Hill that go the slow way via Leicester and a couple of SWT 159s that go the slow way from Bristol via Basingstoke, to be pedantic)

You've made it quite it quite clear that you want the railway to be run as financially efficient as possible and not putting passengers first - you actively support many cuts and oppose most expansion projects.

The flows you cite all have cheap ADVANCE tickets, the competition between LM and VT has produced incredibly cheap WALK-UP tickets. Somehow I doubt Chiltern will provide much competition on flows from/to Milton Keynes and Coventry.

 

[dosxuk]

The flows you cite all have cheap ADVANCE tickets, the competition between LM and VT has produced incredibly cheap WALK-UP tickets.

It would still be in a single WCML operators interest to do significant discounts on the slower trains along the entire line, otherwise the 390s will be full and standing and the 350s will be trundling along empty except for a handful of people who actually need to go to one of the places not served by a 390 (and who don't get the competition discounts anyway).

 

[Deerfold]

It would still be in a single WCML operators interest to do significant discounts on the slower trains along the entire line, otherwise the 390s will be full and standing and the 350s will be trundling along empty except for a handful of people who actually need to go to one of the places not served by a 390 (and who don't get the competition discounts anyway).

That could cause problems on how these are restricted. I'm not sure there's provision to limit access in the NRCoC based on speed of train - just to 1 train, 1 route or 1 company (see endless threads on Gatwick Express for more details).

 

[ainsworth74]

The resistors for the dynamic brakes were on the roof, and throwing seawater at the caused electrical failures. Also, leaves and such fell into them and promptly caught fire as they get quite hot when in use.

Pretty sure they still are I also recall hearing about a pigeon (or some other bird) getting caught in there and being char-grilled when the train braked for a station call.

 

[gswindale]

That could cause problems on how these are restricted. I'm not sure there's provision to limit access in the NRCoC based on speed of train - just to 1 train, 1 route or 1 company (see endless threads on Gatwick Express for more details).

There possibly is as FGW limit travel back from London on off-peak tickets. For instance travelling from Reading to Paddington tomorrow lunchtime; if I buy an off-peak according to National Rail I can return on the 17:18 (takes 38 minutes) or the 17:25 (takes 61 minutes), but not the 17:15 (25) or 17:22 (27).

Although that is returning in the "peak" period. Outside of those times; it appears that I can use any train I like.

Therefore I don't see any problem with a TOC applying for the entitlement to restrict tickets to specific services.

 

[Deerfold]

There possibly is as FGW limit travel back from London on off-peak tickets. For instance travelling from Reading to Paddington tomorrow lunchtime; if I buy an off-peak according to National Rail I can return on the 17:18 (takes 38 minutes) or the 17:25 (takes 61 minutes), but not the 17:15 (25) or 17:22 (27).

Although that is returning in the "peak" period. Outside of those times; it appears that I can use any train I like.

Therefore I don't see any problem with a TOC applying for the entitlement to restrict tickets to specific services.

No, but the restriction would have to list every train - the FGW restricted list is rather long even now and that only covers the peak.

 

[HH]

How many staff does a TOC need in the back office?

Presumably a lot of tasks are contracted out to others (marketing, payroll, pensions, cleaning, whatever).

Actually payroll & pensions are normally done in-house; much of marketing too, and outside offices, more cleaning is done in-house than out.

 

[tbtc]

Actually payroll & pensions are normally done in-house; much of marketing too, and outside offices, more cleaning is done in-house than out.

Fair enough - but I reckon that the large number of third party organisations willing to do this kind of work (for a fee, obviously!) would mean that it ought to be a lot simpler for the Government to take over the running of a TOC at fairly short notice without needing thousands of staff

 

[WillPS]

Fair enough - but I reckon that the large number of third party organisations willing to do this kind of work (for a fee, obviously!) would mean that it ought to be a lot simpler for the Government to take over the running of a TOC at fairly short notice without needing thousands of staff

Wouldn't they just take all the VT staff under TUPE?

 

[HH]

Have you included the vast numbers of DfT staff and the staff at the Office of Rail Regulation who's only job is to try and stop the TOC's staff from embezzling the taxpayer.

No, because they have nothing to do with the TOCs. And your prejudices shine from every pore when you make such libellous and nonsensical claims.

A comparable government owned operation to a TOC exists, it is called DOR

You are funny. DOR has a bunch of ex-TOC Directors and is run exactly like a TOC. What were you trying to prove again?

And define "front line staff", I can make the NHS "manager:front line staff ratio" jump all over the park depending on what definitions I use

I'm sure that you can. But I'm equally sure that you know exactly who is frontline and who isn't; and I do too.

And before you go on about BR requiring more headquarters staff than TOCs.... TOCs only do a tiny fraction of the work done by BR, you would have to include the total number of staff in the industry per train mile ran. Per passenger mile is a stupid measure since I don't need more staff on a train if it is full compared to if it is empty.

Train Mile is also a stupid measure. A train of 1 vehicle requires less staff than one of 16. And more passengers require more staff too. TOCs can be directly compared to the TOUs that preceded them. They now have less back office staff, despite doing more tasks, and more frontline.

Also I doubt that the numbers of staff at TOC headquarters include the endless lawyers kept on retainer to fight legal battles with everyone else, and the same number of staff maintained at Network Rail's expense to defend against endless claims.
And the huge number of staff required to support the "Delay Attributation Board", all of these are structures that only exist to support your "more efficient" private railway.

Typical lawyers costs at a typical TOC are pretty low actually (maybe £100-200k a year on a £600m TOC). And they would be far less if they didn't have to go through the exceedingly complex documents that come from DfT (who I shall remind you yet again are part of the state apparatus, and as such glorify in dotting is and crossing ts).

As for the Delay Attribution (notice the spelling) Board. This is an entity dreamt up by Network Rail to try and shift the blame for delays elsewhere. ATOC was stupid in agreeing to it (I warned them about it when it was first mooted), but the whole process could only have been conceived in a non-commercial organisation such as NR. The numbers of staff involved in the DAB are not huge. Perhaps you were just thinking about normal delay attribution? I could explain why there is not as much waste as some would like to think, but to do that the reader would have to understand all about train performance.

Who is currently driving the attempts at alliancing, aimed at removing duplications and saving costs? It's not NR I can tell you. The only person on their side who is driving it is an external consultant.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fair enough - but I reckon that the large number of third party organisations willing to do this kind of work (for a fee, obviously!) would mean that it ought to be a lot simpler for the Government to take over the running of a TOC at fairly short notice without needing thousands of staff

External or internal - all would transfer in reality. But there is still work to do, on contracts for instance. These aren't drawn up and agreed overnight.

I'm told that VT is likely to get an extension. Michael Holden apparently doesn't think that there is time to set up DOR properly.