First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Solent&Wessex]

Louise Ellman (Chair, Transport Select Committee) just been on BBC News she said "The Secretary of State has confirmed to me that she is not prepared to delay the signing of the contract". The reporter also said "The Government says the decision was entirely fair, and it is not a matter that rank and file MPs can interfere with".

So after all this huffing and puffing from Beardie and pals, it is now, finally, goodbye.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Louise Ellman (Chair, Transport Select Committee) just been on BBC News she said "The Secretary of State has confirmed to me that she is not prepared to delay the signing of the contract". The reporter also said "The Government says the decision was entirely fair, and it is not a matter that rank and file MPs can interfere with".

So after all this huffing and puffing from Beardie and pals, it is now, finally, goodbye.

Only if Virgin don't make a legal challenge by Tuesday.
Neither the TSC nor the e-petition changes that.

 

[junglejames]

Virgin were prepared to see the upgrade abandoned providing a long list of staggering demands were met, such as paths from Kings X – Leeds and open access rights from London – Manchester to name two.

Really? Wow. If thats true to pretty much kills off these arguments flying around.
I dare someone to tell the campaigners this. You'd end up getting lynched!!

 

[WatcherZero]

Parliament is in recess until 3 September and the Committee has not asked her to appear before her already scheduled routine hearing on 12 September.

As I said, theyve asked her to appear before signing:

Louise Ellman, who chairs the House of Commons Transport Committee, has written to Transport Secretary Justine Greening saying she wants her committee to look at all of the issues before the minister puts her name to Britain's most lucrative rail contract.

and the Committee has not asked her to appear before her already scheduled routine hearing on 12 September.

No theyve asked her to appear before the contract is signed. Theres a 10 day window for losers to officially challenge the results but no requirement the contract is signed within 10 days, many rail industry contracts have gone unsigned for months even years after award of prefered bidder status.

However, a spokeswoman at the Department of Transport told The Herald: "Our published processes and criteria do not provide for a role in a live procurement exercise for the Transport Committee, which has not requested any kind of dialogue on this issue before now.

"However, the Secretary of State is due to appear in front of it in early September and will be happy to talk about the business of her department then."

So shes happy to talk after signing but wont appear before signing. And for reference the letter in full:
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/... Chair to Justine Greening - WC Franchise.pdf

By the way Education Secretary has just caved, Ofqual will have an inquiry into altering exam thresholds at the last minute.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Only if Virgin don't make a legal challenge by Tuesday.
Neither the TSC nor the e-petition changes that.

Agreed, but I would have thought that Virgin would have done that by now. I would also have thought they would need the agreement of Stagecoach, who have remained silent on the matter. To do a legal challenge you would need to prove that the process wasn't followed, not that you don't like the outcome. If the process hadn't been followed correctly, I am sure something would have been said by now.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Agreed, but I would have thought that Virgin would have done that by now. I would also have thought they would need the agreement of Stagecoach, who have remained silent on the matter. To do a legal challenge you would need to prove that the process wasn't followed, not that you don't like the outcome. If the process hadn't been followed correctly, I am sure something would have been said by now.

Of course. In this context Virgin = VT = Virgin and Stagecoach.
They wouldn't necessarily tell us anyway, challenge or not.
Roger Ford's piece this month in MR about the challenge to the Agility IEP contract was very funny.
It was challenged by Bombardier/Siemens, but then withdrawn.

 

[YorkshireRider]

First have also offered more money (yes this is important) and apparently have offered more money to the government in the event of a default. A lot more money from the figures I had heard as well.

Tim O Toole said it was the Dft that set the default amount based on their assessment of the bids risk. Is this not the case? If it is the case then the fact Virgin would have payed a lot less means the risk of defaulting was a lot less, so im not sure what your point is here

 

[SkinnyDave]

I got a really good email from Richard Parry today in response to queries that I had?
Well impressed he replied

 

[WatcherZero]

Tim O Toole said it was the Dft that set the default amount based on their assessment of the bids risk. Is this not the case? If it is the case then the fact Virgin would have payed a lot less means the risk of defaulting was a lot less, so im not sure what your point is here

The Dft asked for an additional guarentee of First because it judged First Group to have shaky finances with a huge amount of debt and higher chance of default, It didnt ask Virgin for the same requirement because it didnt think their finances were as bad. Of course First told its shareholders in its conference call these extra guarentees were meaningless, as they were in the form of a bank loan it didnt increase the liabilities of First Group in a default as they were not putting the equity in, the bank was.

 

[davido39]

Stagecoach employee relations weren't that good, but the buses were nicer? Interesting priorities (and ironic given who owns 49% of Virgin Trains!).

Anyway what do buses have to do with trains? The same parent company? Why not compare Virgin Trains with their planes or their banking business as a sign of who is best at running a train company.

And don't dare look at companies like P&G, Kraft, Nestlé etc.

First and Stagecoach seem to have a proven record on running trains. National Express once did. All ran totally separate to any bus operation (themselves often totally separate).

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

I think I mentioned I worked for Stagecoach but never said what I did I was just a lowly bus driver.
I do believe the above are food manufacturers so comparing them with, lets just say Go Ahead would be like comparing Samsung to Iphone!

I think the poster was refering to the olympic buses contract

Indeed I was. Sense prevails.

To be fair to Stagecoach they've had to find hundreds of buses for Olympic contracts over the past month, which means a number of elderly buses have either been taken out of "reserve" or have seen their lives extended to ensure that "local" operations have enough buses to run.

My local route has lost some 57/08 reg buses (to other areas so that their buses can go down to London for the games) and temporarily gained some R reg vehicles. Not ideal, but only for a few weeks.

I wouldn't judge Stagecoach operations on the performance of this temporary "blip" though - the younger buses will be back soon (with some 12 reg vehicles introduced to a few places when the Paralympic games are finished)

Very apt statement, our bus services were subject to a temporary timetable and the number 3 (Onthank Shortlees) has seen mostly double deckers to make up for the shortfall.

 

[IanXC]

As I said, theyve asked her to appear before signing:

No theyve asked her to appear before the contract is signed. Theres a 10 day window for losers to officially challenge the results but no requirement the contract is signed within 10 days, many rail industry contracts have gone unsigned for months even years after award of prefered bidder status.

So shes happy to talk after signing but wont appear before signing. And for reference the letter in full:
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/... Chair to Justine Greening - WC Franchise.pdf

The Secretary of State has not said she will not appear before the comittee. It seems the department will (rightly imo) not delay the digning of the contract. The TSC have known for sometime what the ITT said, and when the winner was likely to be announced and have not previously objected to either.

Bandwagons are just too tempting sometimes eh?

 

[F Great Eastern]

I got a really good email from Richard Parry today in response to queries that I had?
Well impressed he replied

What was said?

 

[junglejames]

The Dft asked for an additional guarentee of First because it judged First Group to have shaky finances with a huge amount of debt and higher chance of default, It didnt ask Virgin for the same requirement because it didnt think their finances were as bad. Of course First told its shareholders in its conference call these extra guarentees were meaningless, as they were in the form of a bank loan it didnt increase the liabilities of First Group in a default as they were not putting the equity in, the bank was.

I stand corrected on that part then.
The rest still stands though.

 

[SkinnyDave]

What was said?

I was asking about future Scotland to Manc services and Liverpool.
He said that when Northern and TPE get re-tendered these could be a possibility for the longer termif they have the blessing of the DFT and ORR along with Network rail.
They will announce possibilities in coming months but are committed to existing time table along with introducing new services as stated.

Cheers

 

[jon0844]

I do believe the above are food manufacturers so comparing them with, lets just say Go Ahead would be like comparing Samsung to Iphone!

My point was that large corporations can own many businesses in many fields and the above do more than just make foods, owning lots of big name brands.

Or consider Serco, from rubbish collection to managing traffic lights to running the DLR.

In other words, what they do in one subsidiary is not necessarily relevant to another. The VT supporters are trying to slate First based on its bus operations when they're doing just fine in rail and the people running buses aren't running the trains.

 

[tbtc]

My point was that large corporations can own many businesses in many fields and the above do more than just make foods, owning lots of big name brands.

Or consider Serco, from rubbish collection to managing traffic lights to running the DLR.

In other words, what they do in one subsidiary is not necessarily relevant to another. The VT supporters are trying to slate First based on its bus operations when they're doing just fine in rail and the people running buses aren't running the trains.

Similarly passengers used to Stagecoach's Goldline buses (leather seats etc) might find Magicbus services a bit of a step down, but Stagecoach are good at offering different levels of service to different markets (competing against themselves at times - e.g. the initial Megabus services in Scotland competed with existing Stagecoach coach routes like Edinburgh to St Andrews).

Can't judge a company by one part of the operation.

 

[WatcherZero]

The Secretary of State has not said she will not appear before the comittee. It seems the department will (rightly imo) not delay the digning of the contract. The TSC have known for sometime what the ITT said, and when the winner was likely to be announced and have not previously objected to either.

Bandwagons are just too tempting sometimes eh?

Its irrelevent, if a bidder challenges the deadline would be pushed back anyway, the Transport Select Committee is free to object and ask for the same level of scrutiny a bidder can, the deadline for signing isnt set in stone.

 

[fgwrich]

My point was that large corporations can own many businesses in many fields and the above do more than just make foods, owning lots of big name brands.

Or consider Serco, from rubbish collection to managing traffic lights to running the DLR.

In other words, what they do in one subsidiary is not necessarily relevant to another. The VT supporters are trying to slate First based on its bus operations when they're doing just fine in rail and the people running buses aren't running the trains.

...Or consider Serco, from rubbish collection to managing traffic lights, running the DLR to Swimming Pools, Criminal Conveyance and MOD Defence contracts too! Serco certainly are multi purpose company which in the past, has come up for critism.

If anyone want's a good laugh, this came out yesterday including some of the 'celebraties' responses:

Celebrities have joined the national discussion on twitter.


Stephen Fry - Something dodgy about Virgin losing their franchise?


Dermot O'Leary - Yo, been using Virgin Trains a lot this summer for the X, and those peeps are less than pleased about losing their contract. If you feel the same sign petition if not, no sweat. Personally I love the uniforms & the crew to Liverpool!


Eddie Izzard - I'm signing this e-petition. Government should reconsider. have read reasons to sign and think we should support it


Rio Ferdinand - u know you get good dindins coming home from Matches


Joey Barton - I've just signed the epetition. Mainly because I use that line to get back home to see my family. It's reliable, comfortable


Derren Brown - Shame to see brilliant #VirginTrains unrewarded for such hard work. Do sign e-petition urging Government to rethink.

Nice for VT's First Class 'celebraties' eh?

 

[sonic2009]

Have Virgin put in to challenge at all?

 

[junglejames]

Have Virgin put in to challenge at all?

Not yet.
There is a rumour that he will do so at the last second. That just smacks of someone trying to disrupt the handover. Not someone who thinks there is a real problem.

 

[F Great Eastern]

No doubt the tactic is to see if they can overturn it without a challenge, but if one becomes necessary, they will do so.

 

[90019]

No doubt the tactic is to see if they can overturn it without a challenge, but if one becomes necessary, they will do so.

If there was a valid reason for a challenge, it would have already happened.

 

[Whistler40145]

Does anyone expect Virgin to put up a fight or bow out gracefully?

 

[jon0844]

Look how long Lance Armstrong protested before giving up...

 

[Wath Yard]

Does anyone expect Virgin to put up a fight or bow out gracefully?

Have you been livng in a cave in Papua New Guinea for the last fortnight?

 

[IanXC]

Does anyone expect Virgin to put up a fight or bow out gracefully?

I have to say I don't think they will do either of these things.

(Bow out disgracefully seems most likely.)

 

[Pen Mill]

(Bow out disgracefully seems most likely.)

sounds like work in progress to me

 

[Whistler40145]

It will be rather boring when it's all over.

 

[krisk]

Too be fair I have been taken aback by all the pro VT support

I'm restricted in my comments but it seems that more people love VT than don't

 

[RPI]

The reason why morale will be low at VT is that VT are doing their best to scare their current staff, I work for First and they aren't actually bad to work for and also get plenty of perks. The current VT management are scaremongering because they have nothing to lose as I'll bet first have a good management cull when they take over in December!