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First win Intercity West Coast franchise

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HH

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Are we plainly saying that until a debate takes place that First Group have their hands tied?

Until the contract is signed they cannot commit to anything in the name of the new company. Time is always tight on a mobilisation. If we wait for MPs to come back off their long hols then it will be that bit tighter. First would have a good case to say that would affect their numbers.

Any decision, other than the contract is signed on time, will cost the taxpayer money.
 

rail-britain

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Are we plainly saying that until a debate takes place that First Group have their hands tied?
First Group have been awarded the InterCity West Coast franchise, that is the end of the matter
DfT have the process in place to finalise the contract on Tuesday 28 August 2012

The government (parliament and respective committees) can debate the issue all they want, nothing will change

I am always amazed how anger is created when contracts end, jobs are lost, etc
Not everything lasts for ever
If you have an employment contract that is awarded until a specific date, then why should you be angry that it was not extended / renewed?
 

jon0844

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And to the comment about the WCML being the lifeblood to so many communities; what do you think could happen? First mess up and the line is closed?

The trains will always run and IF First did go bust (unlikely) then DOR would step in. There would be no break in service and some might even argue that it would be even better for the taxpayer!
 

davido39

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First Group have been awarded the InterCity West Coast franchise, that is the end of the matter
DfT have the process in place to finalise the contract on Tuesday 28 August 2012

The government (parliament and respective committees) can debate the issue all they want, nothing will change

I am always amazed how anger is created when contracts end, jobs are lost, etc
Not everything lasts for ever
If you have an employment contract that is awarded until a specific date, then why should you be angry that it was not extended / renewed?

I don't think for the majority anger is the issue, I think it's more to do with the fact Virgin did turn things around on what really is considered the poor relation to the East Coast Main Line. First ARE struggling as company on a whole (see bus operations) First put in a bid that exceeded Virgin's bid, Richard Branson quite rightly said Virgin put a bid in that was viable so not end up bankrupt, First put a higher bid in and are promising more trains, more roots ETC. Hopefully they can deliver or will it be another case of another bus operating company being on the verge of going to the wall.

On a side note, is First the governments choice over other operators? The reason I ask is First are the larger company bus wise at the Olympics. If there was a choice I think Stagecoach should have been awarded the contract. I worked for Stagecoach and find their employee relations are not good but Stagecoach have a better fleet than First cosmetically. OK all the buses used for the Olympic transport were either new or refurbished but how long will it be before they end up looking tired when they are disbanded to the various depots around the UK!
 

jon0844

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Stagecoach employee relations weren't that good, but the buses were nicer? Interesting priorities (and ironic given who owns 49% of Virgin Trains!).

Anyway what do buses have to do with trains? The same parent company? Why not compare Virgin Trains with their planes or their banking business as a sign of who is best at running a train company.

And don't dare look at companies like P&G, Kraft, Nestlé etc.

First and Stagecoach seem to have a proven record on running trains. National Express once did. All ran totally separate to any bus operation (themselves often totally separate).

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 

Solent&Wessex

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I think Stagecoach should have been awarded the contract. I worked for Stagecoach and find their employee relations are not good but Stagecoach have a better fleet than First cosmetically.
I don't know. I went on a Stagecoach in East Kent rural bus 2 weeks ago. It as filthy inside and out, it rattled violently and juddered horribly when braking. The noise from underneath the back sounded like the back axle was a bit tired. And the driver was driving like a maniac at high speeds down narrow lanes not even slowing down for oncoming cars, cyclists etc. It was worth the £3.80 for the ride, which was more frightening and hair raising than a rollercoaster at a theme park.


 

WelshBluebird

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I still don't see any justification for this e-petition rubbish.

but Stagecoach have a better fleet than First cosmetically.

Depends where you live surely?
The stagecoach buses used in the south wales valleys are certainly not better than the First buses I use in Bath.

My unlimited download with BE Broadband knocks VM out the park. £10.21 a month, totally unlimited. Not like VM with their traffic management policy. An adequate 9Mb connection. Yes that's slower than I can get with VM through fibre optic but it's less than half the price of their cheapest 20mb standalone. Then there's VM line rental. That brings the broadband price down a bit, but at around £15 a month it's a lot more than I pay to Primus Telecom (£9.19).

Great if you live close to the telephone exchange. But if you don't, then BE (and every other ADSL based ISP) will not give you anywhere near what you can get on Virgin Media (even if you take into account the throttling).
 

rail-britain

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If there was a choice I think Stagecoach should have been awarded the contract
Sadly the franchising process does not work like this, the bid was placed by Virgin Rail Group, and so could not be retrospectively considered to either Virgin Group or Stagecoach Group (and the relevant newly created subsidiary)

However, now that Virgin Rail Group has effectively announced it will cease from the end of this year, expect to see Stagecoach Group make more aggressive bids for franchises including the InterCity West Coast when it comes up for renewal
 

Metroland

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And to the comment about the WCML being the lifeblood to so many communities; what do you think could happen? First mess up and the line is closed?

The trains will always run and IF First did go bust (unlikely) then DOR would step in. There would be no break in service and some might even argue that it would be even better for the taxpayer!

The trains won't stop running, but in order to meet financial targets there may be a number of things put in place that will affect the millions of people that use the line every year, the obvious one being the hiking of unregulated fares.

Don't get me wrong I don't have an amazing preference toward either company, both have their disasters in railway history and their triumphs. The underlying point has to be is the franchise system broken. Will this deal go the same way as other failed franchises and in order to meet this target what is the effect on passengers in terms of service delivery and cost.

If you like we're back to this debate over public service v commercial concerns.
 

Pen Mill

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This route has been here forever and will be here forever more.

It's just had to go through a drama contest because the popular vote didn't get it ... so what ?

I doubt if more than a couple of the petition signing 100,000 will notice any difference apart from a drop in their hormone levels and I doubt if the genuine West Coast travelling public will either.
First have proved that they are an "aware" operator and will make sure this works.
 

F Great Eastern

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As stated in the other thread, the people who claim that First get better treatment and contracts because of some conspiracy theory, how would you explain the fact that National Express had a huge amount of franchises at one point, and also had pretty much every major event transport contract.

First have about half the franchises National Express have and one major event contract and suddenly there must be some ulterior reason. Sigh
 

rail-britain

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If you like we're back to this debate over public service v commercial concerns.
Not so much that, but it is the method on which the franchises are based

The DfT receive a premium, which is between 5 and 60 times the profit taken by the franchise holder
Equally, the premium increases over the length of the franchise, and it is this later stage where the franchise holder struggles to make payment (unless by renegotiation)

If this pattern continues, then it clearly demonstrates the franchise contract method does not operate correctly

Personally, the premium paid should be fixed (increasing each year by an appropriate index, such as RPI)
This then lowers the risk to both the DfT (of the franchise holder failing) and to the franchise holder

With the InterCity West Coast franchise a very basic attempt has been made to include this, but still has a base limit
As I have posted previously (and has now appeared in several financial publications) this will become more obvious in years 4 and 6 of the franchise
 

Mojo

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I don't think for the majority anger is the issue, I think it's more to do with the fact Virgin did turn things around on what really is considered the poor relation to the East Coast Main Line.
To what extent can Virgin be credited for what happened on the West Coast? Infrastructure work was carried out and paid for by Railtrack/Network Rail. The trains (the majority of which were voted as having the worst interior out of all long-distance trains in the country) were specified internally by Virgin and paid for by Roscos. The timetable was specified and written by the DfT and Network Rail.

In the failure of Railtrack to deliver the originally agreed changes to the line, to enable faster running, Virgin got the chance to go back to the drawing board and rewrite part of the contract, creaming millions from the taxpayer on what is a profitmaking service. I don't criticise them for doing this, as it is their business, but am using it as an example to ask to what extent Virgin are responsible for the changes on the West Coast.
 

tbtc

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personally there is something fishy happening at the DFT

Conspiracy theory?

Or maybe just First had a deliverable bid that offered more premium? Simple as that.

I don't think for the majority anger is the issue, I think it's more to do with the fact Virgin did turn things around on what really is considered the poor relation to the East Coast Main Line

Since privatisation the ECML TOC has been paying subsidies to the Government, the WCML has been subsidised by the Government (both in terms of track upgrade and subsidising the franchise).

Must be nice to be the poor relation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To what extent can Virgin be credited for what happened on the West Coast?

At least GoVia don't claim the credit for HS1 and the Javelins
 

LNW-GW Joint

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To what extent can Virgin be credited for what happened on the West Coast? Infrastructure work was carried out and paid for by Railtrack/Network Rail. The trains (the majority of which were voted as having the worst interior out of all long-distance trains in the country) were specified internally by Virgin and paid for by Roscos. The timetable was specified and written by the DfT and Network Rail.

In the failure of Railtrack to deliver the originally agreed changes to the line, to enable faster running, Virgin got the chance to go back to the drawing board and rewrite part of the contract, creaming millions from the taxpayer on what is a profitmaking service. I don't criticise them for doing this, as it is their business, but am using it as an example to ask to what extent Virgin are responsible for the changes on the West Coast.

I am of the view that Virgin was the glue that got the WCRM delivered in the end, because their contracts were sufficiently watertight for the other parties (DfT, RT/NR) to be forced to deliver.
They at least had leadership (Chris Green) at the point where it all went belly up, with the "BR brigade" just shrugging its shoulders about the fact that it had signed up for a railway it couldn't deliver.

I'm not saying that makes them entitled to a new contract, but they are not just any old TOC. Branson could have walked away and let it all fall on the floor.
I don't really care about who gets the contract, but I do want the West Coast to prosper and not sink back into the mediocrity that was the 1980s/90s.
I'm not even sure the First bid will do that.
I'd rather they spent money on station upgrades than gates.
 

Skimble19

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I honestly can't see this petition making any difference, although it is nice to see the level of support it's getting.. I can't imagine a petition to save many other franchises would get as much support!

I don't know. I went on a Stagecoach in East Kent rural bus 2 weeks ago. It as filthy inside and out, it rattled violently and juddered horribly when braking. The noise from underneath the back sounded like the back axle was a bit tired. And the driver was driving like a maniac at high speeds down narrow lanes not even slowing down for oncoming cars, cyclists etc. It was worth the £3.80 for the ride, which was more frightening and hair raising than a rollercoaster at a theme park.



Similar story with many Stagecoach East (United Counties side) vehicles, which were replaced by newer buses, which have now been taken back and the older vehicles returned to service..
 

Whistler40145

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I think everyone get used to the fact that First Group will takeover the franchise in December & Virgin will just fade into history.
 

WatcherZero

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To what extent can Virgin be credited for what happened on the West Coast? Infrastructure work was carried out and paid for by Railtrack/Network Rail. The trains (the majority of which were voted as having the worst interior out of all long-distance trains in the country) were specified internally by Virgin and paid for by Roscos. The timetable was specified and written by the DfT and Network Rail.

Wrong way round, Virgin specified the trains and placed a provisional order even before they won the franchise and a joint Dft led committee specified the interior after they won the franchise. Timetables are proposed by Tocs and then approved or rejected by government.

Transport Secretary refusing to appear before the committee until the week after its signed shows just how desperate the Government is to avoid scrutiny, however its not just Virgin. Head teachers are also demanding an independent inquiry after it emerged the education secretary ordered that exam thresholds be raised between January and June without informing schools while publically denying he had done so (his defence is OfQual is independent he only 'advised' them that he desired a certain outcome). The fact that different marking criteria were used for the same exam in January and June invalidates the results, makes comparison impossible and Leeds council is leading other councils in a direct legal challenge in addition to a legal challenge from The Association of School and College Leaders (ASCL).
 

Zoe

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Wrong way round, Virgin specified the trains and placed a provisional order even before they won the franchise and a joint Dft led committee specified the interior after they won the franchise. Timetables are proposed by Tocs and then approved or rejected by government.
DfT Rail didn't exist back then, I'd be very surprised if the interior of the 390s was strictly specified and forced on Virgin by OPRAF who generally let that TOCs have more freedom than the SRA and DfT later did.

As for timetables, I believe the current timetable was specified by the DfT but I doubt this would have been the same to what Virgin proposed before PUG2 collapsed.
 
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Wath Yard

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Not really, my understanding is most of the Virgin people love working for Virgin. That's the sort of employee loyalty that is pretty hard to come by these days.

That's great but multi-billion pound Government contracts shouldn't take staff's feelings into consideration. If they love Virgin so much and have a passion for the brand they can apply to work at one of the other Virgin companies. If they are customer facing then their experience at Virgin Trains and their love of the company should give them a significant advantage over other applicants.

That's the other thing the DFT need to look at. What effect does a franchise change have on the morale of staff and public perception?

No it shouldn't. How do you quantify morale? How do you know morale will suffer just because they have to wear a different coloured uniform?
 

junglejames

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The epetition isn't based on lies. Besides, what have Virgin offered in their bid?

I'd actually like to see what you lot would be like, given you were in his situation.

The statement from the guy who started the petition states that the value of the WCML is due to the millions of pounds of investment by Virgin. No, the value of the WCML is due to the millions of pounds of investment by the government and the ROSCO, and the hard work of Railtrack/ NR. The money did not come from Virgin to upgrade the line.
So yes, the petition is based on a lie.
What have Virgin offered in their bid? From what I can tell, less than First.
The new services are about the same, but on top of that we have a reduction in Anytime fares and a thorough refurb of the trains. Both of which were not offered by Virgin as far as I can tell.
First have also offered more money (yes this is important) and apparently have offered more money to the government in the event of a default. A lot more money from the figures I had heard as well.

On top of that, have Virgin done anything that deserves to retain the franchise? Apart from asking for the WCML to be upgraded, and thinking of tilting trains, what have they done which makes them stand out? Extortionate Anytime fares and awful interiors?
The only good thing I can think of is allowing railcard holders to use off peak tickets on any train.

They havent been bad, but they havent done much which makes them stand out. So considering First seemingly had the better bid, its only right that they win the new franchsie.
But dont worry, if First never had the best bid, and there is something dodgy, Branson will appeal. Lets see if it happens.
 

junglejames

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Not really, my understanding is most of the Virgin people love working for Virgin. That's the sort of employee loyalty that is pretty hard to come by these days.

That's the other thing the DFT need to look at. What effect does a franchise change have on the morale of staff and public perception? Does a poor public perception or employee loyalty actually damage the franchise? Is this considered in the franchise process? I don't know for sure, but I doubt it.

Brand is absolutely everything in the modern business world. We may sniff at it, call it spin, but image and perception is absolutely everything whether we like it or not.

As for the petition being ignored, to my knowledge only 10 have ever gone over the 100,000 mark. This is a modern democracy with lots of tax payer's money at stake. Remember, the WCML is the economic lifeblood between London, the West Midlands, the North West, the Lakes and Glasgow affecting business and the lives of millions. In short this is an important issue.

It would be very unwise for our politicians and the civil service to just sign it off and disregard it IHMO without a proper debate and more transparency on the selection process and an examination by professionals in the field to conclude whether it is robust.

So that means as long as you have good PR, you neednt offer a brilliant bid, and the service will never be improved? These people will eventually realise they are getting a good service from First, and will forget all about Virgin, because currently its mainly the PR causing all this.
 

Wath Yard

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I am of the view that Virgin was the glue that got the WCRM delivered in the end, because their contracts were sufficiently watertight for the other parties (DfT, RT/NR) to be forced to deliver.
They at least had leadership (Chris Green) at the point where it all went belly up, with the "BR brigade" just shrugging its shoulders about the fact that it had signed up for a railway it couldn't deliver.

I'm not saying that makes them entitled to a new contract, but they are not just any old TOC. Branson could have walked away and let it all fall on the floor.
I don't really care about who gets the contract, but I do want the West Coast to prosper and not sink back into the mediocrity that was the 1980s/90s.
I'm not even sure the First bid will do that.
I'd rather they spent money on station upgrades than gates.

Their contract wasn't sufficiently watertight to ensure the upgrade progressed. I believe they would have been entitled to £250 million, which is far less than the eventual bill for the upgrade. It is also debateable whether they would have been entitled to that money as they entered into an agreement with a plc and Railtrack entered administration, therefore it is quite possible they would have had to queue up for their money in the same way all creditors do when companies enter administration. The Government could have treated creditors the same way as it treated shareholders if it so wished.

Tom Winsor was the main driving force behind the upgrade progressing and given his background, his motives for being quite so aggressive could be questioned.

Virgin were prepared to see the upgrade abandoned providing a long list of staggering demands were met, such as paths from Kings X – Leeds and open access rights from London – Manchester to name two.
 

tbtc

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I went on a Stagecoach in East Kent rural bus 2 weeks ago. It as filthy inside and out, it rattled violently and juddered horribly when braking. The noise from underneath the back sounded like the back axle was a bit tired

Similar story with many Stagecoach East (United Counties side) vehicles, which were replaced by newer buses, which have now been taken back and the older vehicles returned to service..

To be fair to Stagecoach they've had to find hundreds of buses for Olympic contracts over the past month, which means a number of elderly buses have either been taken out of "reserve" or have seen their lives extended to ensure that "local" operations have enough buses to run.

My local route has lost some 57/08 reg buses (to other areas so that their buses can go down to London for the games) and temporarily gained some R reg vehicles. Not ideal, but only for a few weeks.

I wouldn't judge Stagecoach operations on the performance of this temporary "blip" though - the younger buses will be back soon (with some 12 reg vehicles introduced to a few places when the Paralympic games are finished)
 

Stats

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Transport Secretary refusing to appear before the committee until the week after its signed shows just how desperate the Government is to avoid scrutiny
The Transport Secretary isn't refusing to appear before the committee. Parliament is in recess until 3 September and the Committee has not asked her to appear before her already scheduled routine hearing on 12 September.
 
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