FirstGroup vies with Virgin in west coast rail bidding war

[David10]

In which case why not announce as such tomorrow morning, as planned?

There would still be a fair bit of toing and froing between the DfT and the winner. Maybe there has been a last minute hitch, not likely to be a game changer just something that needs to be worked through. Recall this happened with the Northern franchise delaying the handover from FNW by a couple of weeks. Or as stated may be to fit in better with other things on Downing St's agenda.

Far too many people looking through rose tinted glasses re Virgin. If premiums quoted are correct Virgin's premium will be 2.9 times bigger than currently paid, First's 3.1. Either way there will have to be change.

 

[RPI]

With Branson publically speaking about the bid he may well have done more harm than good to himself, it could be argued that he has breached the agreement with DfT no to talk about their bid's during the bidding process.

 

[Wath Yard]

Far too many people looking through rose tinted glasses re Virgin.

I think the local ITV news summed it up pretty well. Something like if First do win the franchise passengers will notice very little difference except a new livery.

 

[yorkie]

I think the local ITV news summed it up pretty well. Something like if First do win the franchise passengers will notice very little difference except a new livery.

And the fact their Off Peak tickets have been renamed Super Off Peak (but at the same price - plus inflation and and a little more) and are no longer valid on as many trains, and to travel on the trains they could previously use they have to pay nearly twice the price. And, for Railcard holders, the prime fares go up by around £200. And anyone holding an Anytime has to slum it in cattle class on weekends.

Apart from that, no, no difference at all...

 

[Wath Yard]

It's been suggested railcard discounts on peak fares are due to end in December anyway, and if First introduce extra peak restrictions it would mean there would only be 1 train per day classified as off peak.

 

[WatcherZero]

If it was true that Virgin scored as highly and the reason for choosing First was the Treasury leaning on the Dft to maximise the financial returns then that pressure could be reversed and theres no threat of legal action as its by the book scoring. If First scored higher anyway then theres likely no chance of a u-turn to select Virgin.

As has been pointed out the fact that Tuesday would be the day rail fare rises were set could see any positive spin being drowned out and PR chose to delay it 24 hours.

 

[spyontheinside]

Oh for sure. For the customer experience, very little change.

From a rail worker point of view, massive changes, infact life changing for some. Dont forget, some of us have worked in this role for 15 years.

 

[Zoe]

If it was true that Virgin scored as highly and the reason for choosing First was the Treasury leaning on the Dft to maximise the financial returns then that pressure could be reversed and theres no threat of legal action as its by the book scoring.

If it was the leak that caused the rethink and First would have been awared the franchise had the leak not occured though I would have thought it could be argued to have compromised the process.

 

[RPI]

Oh for sure. For the customer experience, very little change.

From a rail worker point of view, massive changes, infact life changing for some. Dont forget, some of us have worked in this role for 15 years.

If VT were so caring then why would they give a load of staff fixed contracts? if your on a full time contract you've nothing to worry about as you are protected under TUPE.

 

[spyontheinside]

They applied for the jobs knowing full well the end date of the contract.

Im talking about all the resource staff that would not doubt be pushed out after working here for circa 15 years. Well, not only resources staff, but catering crews who have also worked here for that period of time. Under TUPE you would only be safe for 6 months, that was the period back in the day of BR. Its all well and good talking about it, but you need to be in this position to realise what we all potentially face. Outsourcing catering really would mean 800 jobs out of the window (as was in the news).

 

[spyontheinside]

Unless they have a contract that runs out in oh say December like a lot of the catering and a few other roles do.

With reference to catering, theres circa 90-100 people across the 9 depots, give or take, which expire on or around 8th DEC (some late september). Thats from the other half whos currently one of them. Foolishy gave up a booking office staff role for a 12 month fixed term contract on board (at the time the hours were more flexible for childcare etc, better pay to). In heinsight, it wasnt the best of moves. We accept her role wont be renewed. I dread to think the amount of staff in offices, stations etc which are also fixed term.

I assume the entire payroll dept will go as will the recruitment centre, First will already have established departments for this.

Estimated, what, 500 staff? Legally gone due to contracts expiring.

 

[NorthantsMan]

With reference to TUPE:

The point of TUPE is to ensure that employees are protected in the event of a transfer of business.

TUPE does make quite clear allowances to dismiss or make redundant staff whenever the new company likes in the case of a valid "Economic, Technical, or Organisational" reason.

http://www.idea.gov.uk/idk/core/page.do?pageId=6908271

In essence, nobody is safe if the new franchisee deems that a particular grade or department is not affordable.

The idea that you can't be dismissed or made redundant for a two year period *full stop* is frankly not correct.

 

[Ferret]

Spy - you're jumping the gun here with regard to payroll. They can hardly ask the existing FGW department to deal with that when FGW might be Arriva Great Western or whatever when that franchise is awarded! They may even keep some of the fixed term staff on yet! Having seen my own employers change franchise owners, I cannot stress enough the need to wait and see what is said when the details are announced. My experience of it is that much of it bears no resemblance to rumours or worst fears.

 

[jon0844]

In all the other franchise changeovers, staff get a new uniform and carry on. So why do people assume half of the Virgin train staff will be sacked tomorrow (I mean, why wait until December?!).

I realise Virgin has always been Virgin on the WCML and so the staff here don't know what happens when a new operator takes over, but it's really not that big a deal. When the bids are opened up, we'll no doubt discover that staff were about to find some rather big changes were going to be made even if Virgin had continued.. it wasn't just going to be business as usual with much higher premiums having to be paid.

And while any individual members of temporary staff might be worried (but they already knew they were going come December anyway), if First is merely planning to outsource many of these jobs to another company - you do of course have a few hundred people (or more) actually quite looking forward to the prospect of getting a job.

What's to say the people currently in a job can't transfer to the company that will land the catering contract? In fact, the existing staff may well be put forward to get first refusal for these jobs. Yes, they may have new terms and conditions, or lower pay, but it doesn't necessarily mean NO job. No job is for life these days, least of all the ones that are fixed term contracts in the first place!

FWIW, fixed term contracts can be very good for some people - often paying higher rates than a permanent job (the extra being for the fact you'll be looking for another job at the end of the term).

 

[spyontheinside]

Believe it or not theres only about 5 staff in payroll, so the 'department' is a handfull of people. They are bricking it right now.

Expect the worst, you wont be disappointed.

 

[richardderby]

First great western introduced half price super off peak singles to increase off peak travel. Virgin have some of the longest peak hour restrictions for walk up savers. I have appealed to the DFT to introduce half price super off peak single tickets uniformly instead of the current £1 discount on a return.

 

[Trains06]

Struggling to follow this...have DfT suddenly had an urge to have an eleventh hour re-think and we wont be hearing the result in a couple of hours? Could be a few days?

 

[ajdunlop]

I think there is something to the argument that service and staff numbers will inevitably suffer as First have bid way above the others for the contract and are already in a dubious financial position.

 

[ainsworth74]

Struggling to follow this...have DfT suddenly had an urge to have an eleventh hour re-think and we wont be hearing the result in a couple of hours? Could be a few days?

No one is sure what's prompted the delay but the announcement does seem to have been put back. Someone on here has suggested by one day but I don't believe there is anything concrete as to when the announcement is now to be expected.

I think there is something to the argument that service and staff numbers will inevitably suffer as First have bid way above the others for the contract and are already in a dubious financial position.

I wouldn't have said they've bid way above what Virgin have put in. Whoever wins I suspect there will be cuts, perhaps they won't be a deep under Virgin but they will still be made.

 

[junglejames]

Be careful, knowing First if there's any stock lying around still in the old FNW livery they may try and use it! 323 from Euston to Birmingham anyone?

Why only Brummie? Why not all the way to Glasgow? At least then we get a more comfortable journey.

 

[Yourang]

Phil at rail mag confirms On twitter what I said. Announcement delayed by one day. First horizon trains the winner. Bidders will get feedback on their plans and how they compared to the winner on weds too.

 

[12CSVT]

The passengers all didnt want Virgin to go as they were happy with the service......

Could be a case of them not wanting First Group running the service (especially those who can remember First North Western).

 

[bnm]

Phil at rail mag confirms On twitter what I said. Announcement delayed by one day. First horizon trains the winner. Bidders will get feedback on their plans and how they compared to the winner on weds too.

If he has just tweeted that then he soon deleted it. Can't see such a tweet. Link please.

 

[Ascot]

Heard from a VT member at New St today that the announcement has been put back until tomorrow. Fingers crossed VT get it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Yourang]

Tweet from @philatrail to @TheFactCompiler The next ICWC franchise is expected to arrive on Wednesday. We apologise for the delay to your franchise. #greeningtannoy

I.e. one day delay.

Looking at headlines today maybe we can see why there was a delay!

 

[blacknight]

Could delay in announcement be related to turn of face from ex head of DfT Mr Hammond regards his rethinking on private sector not being fit for running of large projects:roll:.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the local ITV news summed it up pretty well. Something like if First do win the franchise passengers will notice very little difference except a new livery.

Don't forget the new company branded uniform to be issued to staff maybe time as come for reintroduction of a nationwide standard uniform to rail staff which would make staff more visable to passengers & reduce costs when a franchises as a change of operator.

 

[Cletus]

Next year price rise percentage is about to be announced.
This is probably the reason for delaying the WCML decision.


Rail fares rises set to be revealed
Discussed in this thread: The "Rail fare increase and related discussions" thread

 

[PR1Berske]

I've a grudging respect for First's work on TransPennine Express so if they have won the West Coast I'll be quite pleased.

But yeah, no First North Western commuter coaches out of storage, please, the memories still sting :!

 

[class158]

First / Horizon

Announced tomorrow

 

[12CSVT]

But yeah, no First North Western commuter coaches out of storage, please, the memories still sting :!

Apart from the 101s (withdrawn in 2003) and 309s (withdrawn in 2000) just about all the rolling stock which was in use with FNW is still active with Northern.