Flexible Rail Season Tickets - 2/3 days per week to be introduced by June 2021

[Bletchleyite]

My suspicion would be that leisure travel will return pretty much as it was (though may take some time to do so), but the morning and evening commuter peaks will look like they did pre-COVID on a Friday, i.e. about 1/3 lower demand than before.

 

[Ianigsy]

That makes some big assumptions about how organisations and the teams within them work. It also, as we’ve seen time and again, puts the capacity cart before the demand horse.


All I can say from my observations of my employer, which has many alpha personalities, is that the leaders have historically done significant chunks of their work from home, as it is where they are relatively immune from interruptions. That includes people management which has consistently been highly distributed.

My former head of department used to work from home on Fridays where possible to catch up on any reports he needed to read and put everything to bed to give himself a clear weekend.

Currently about 80% of my department are working from home - the 20% who are left either don’t have broadband at home or do jobs which need to be done in the office like signing and filing original legal documents. Our building was already scheduled to be vacated this summer so it’s unlikely that the company will be looking for new premises - it’s more likely we’ll end up rotating in and out of the office space in another of our locations. The company have also spent £500-odd on laptops, desks and chairs for those people working at home.

My suspicion is that a fairly hefty proportion of the jobs currently being done from home are the ones which were probably ”duct tape” jobs which were already being considered ripe for automation within the next 5-10 years anyway.

 

[infobleep]

My former head of department used to work from home on Fridays where possible to catch up on any reports he needed to read and put everything to bed to give himself a clear weekend.

Currently about 80% of my department are working from home - the 20% who are left either don’t have broadband at home or do jobs which need to be done in the office like signing and filing original legal documents. Our building was already scheduled to be vacated this summer so it’s unlikely that the company will be looking for new premises - it’s more likely we’ll end up rotating in and out of the office space in another of our locations. The company have also spent £500-odd on laptops, desks and chairs for those people working at home.

My suspicion is that a fairly hefty proportion of the jobs currently being done from home are the ones which were probably ”duct tape” jobs which were already being considered ripe for automation within the next 5-10 years anyway.

Do you mean where you work or generally? Where I work my job certainly couldn't be automated but I can work from home for a lot of my work and so far the rest has had to wait.

This Wednesday will be the first anniversary since I started working at home full time.

 

[Ianno87]

My suspicion is that a fairly hefty proportion of the jobs currently being done from home are the ones which were probably ”duct tape” jobs which were already being considered ripe for automation within the next 5-10 years anyway.

If you're talking about the general population, you couldn't be more wrong.

 

[Horizon22]

I've heard that Advance tickets may well be available during "peak" times because as others have suggested, why have trains running around empty. Not sure its fleshed out though because that would somewhat discourage season ticket users, although they may prefer the guaranteed standard price across the year if they're still going in >80% of the time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've heard that Advance tickets may well be available during "peak" times because as others have suggested, why have trains running around empty. Not sure its fleshed out though because that would somewhat discourage season ticket users, although they may prefer the guaranteed standard price across the year if they're still going in >80% of the time.

Advance tickets are already available during "peak" times on most TOCs that do them. Typically they're used to spread loadings a bit by being offered a bit cheaper than an Anytime (Day) Single on the less busy trains, e.g. where 4, 8 or 12-car formations are what are available to the TOC but it really needs 10, so they put on 12 and have some spare capacity.

 

[Horizon22]

Advance tickets are already available during "peak" times on most TOCs that do them.

I suppose I'm referring more to the London and SE commuter TOCs that don't.

 

[BluePenguin]

I suppose I'm referring more to the London and SE commuter TOCs that don't.

I mean I can understand why it might not be a good idea to sell dirt cheap advances on our peak trains. Price conscious and budget travellers will buy them, but should they?

South East commuter services are/were already jam packed with passengers who have already (reluctantly) paid a much higher price. Advance fares might lead to even more overcrowding unless capacity is freed up - apart from early morning services between 4am and 7am used by savvy commuters, shift workers and anyone travelling to/from the airport for a cheap flight on a budget airline.

Anyone who can travel later in the day probably will. Even for a £6 advance who wants to spend an hour stood up amongst tens of other hot sweaty bodies? Not me, or anyone who isn’t travelling for work I bet. For a more pleasant journey, you might as well travel later in the day or if you cannot, get a guaranteed on National Express instead.

 

[Ianno87]

I mean I can understand why it might not be a good idea to sell dirt cheap advances on our peak trains.

South East commuter services are/were already jam packed with passengers who have already (reluctantly) paid a much higher price. Advance fares might lead to even more overcrowding unless capacity is freed up - apart from early morning services between 4am and 7am used by savvy commuters, shift workers and anyone travelling to/from the airport for a cheap flight on a budget airline.

Anyone who can travel later in the day probably will. Even for a £6 advance who wants to spend an hour stood up amongst tens of other hot sweaty bodies? Not me or anyone who isn’t travelling for work I bet. For a more pleasant journey, you might as well travel later in the day or if you cannot, get a guaranteed on National Express instead.

The TOCs that offer them don't do them "dirt" cheap - usually just a slight discount on the Anytime fare, combined with a flexible return (which can often be off-peak and/or combined with a Network Card discount).

Pretty much targeted at people who are travelling anyway, to spread demand a little, for relatively little loss of flexibility to the passenger (as intended morning trains tend to be fixed)

In some cases I also suspect there's a motive of the revenue from an Advance fare going to a single TOC, rather than split via ORCATS. E.g. Greater Anglia advances from Cambridge to Liverpool Street mean that they get all the revenue, rather than being shared with GTR.

 

[BluePenguin]

The TOCs that offer them don't do them "dirt" cheap - usually just a slight discount on the Anytime fare, combined with a flexible return (which can often be off-peak and/or combined with a Network Card discount).

Pretty much targeted at people who are travelling anyway, to spread demand a little, for relatively little loss of flexibility to the passenger (as intended morning trains tend to be fixed)

In some cases I also suspect there's a motive of the revenue from an Advance fare going to a single TOC, rather than split via ORCATS. E.g. Greater Anglia advances from Cambridge to Liverpool Street mean that they get all the revenue, rather than being shared with GTR.

You have a point. I hadn’t thought about revenue allocation. Taking that into account I can see the benefits of offering cheaper advance fares to get a larger slice of the pie.


Advance fares in the South are a mess. Southeastern for instance only offers (with railcard) a £9 advance on high speed services to St Pancras or £6.65 to their mainline terminals. Meanwhile Southern and South Western Railway have advances ranging from £3 to around £20. LNER, Great Western and Avanti are a different kettle of fish as the further distances and higher fares make advance fares easier to justify, making them better value. For most people, a flexible season would probably be cheaper I believe.

 

[Horizon22]

I mean I can understand why it might not be a good idea to sell dirt cheap advances on our peak trains. Price conscious and budget travellers will buy them, but should they?

South East commuter services are/were already jam packed with passengers who have already (reluctantly) paid a much higher price. Advance fares might lead to even more overcrowding unless capacity is freed up - apart from early morning services between 4am and 7am used by savvy commuters, shift workers and anyone travelling to/from the airport for a cheap flight on a budget airline.

Anyone who can travel later in the day probably will. Even for a £6 advance who wants to spend an hour stood up amongst tens of other hot sweaty bodies? Not me, or anyone who isn’t travelling for work I bet. For a more pleasant journey, you might as well travel later in the day or if you cannot, get a guaranteed on National Express instead.

Well I believe the whole point is that now we aren't expecting as many commuters, so that advance purchases during the peak is an option.

 

[infobleep]

I mean I can understand why it might not be a good idea to sell dirt cheap advances on our peak trains. Price conscious and budget travellers will buy them, but should they?

South East commuter services are/were already jam packed with passengers who have already (reluctantly) paid a much higher price. Advance fares might lead to even more overcrowding unless capacity is freed up - apart from early morning services between 4am and 7am used by savvy commuters, shift workers and anyone travelling to/from the airport for a cheap flight on a budget airline.

Anyone who can travel later in the day probably will. Even for a £6 advance who wants to spend an hour stood up amongst tens of other hot sweaty bodies? Not me, or anyone who isn’t travelling for work I bet. For a more pleasant journey, you might as well travel later in the day or if you cannot, get a guaranteed on National Express instead.

I don't come across advanced fares from Guildford before 7am on SWR or GWR. Certainly not to London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I mean I can understand why it might not be a good idea to sell dirt cheap advances on our peak trains. Price conscious and budget travellers will buy them, but should they?

South East commuter services are/were already jam packed with passengers who have already (reluctantly) paid a much higher price. Advance fares might lead to even more overcrowding unless capacity is freed up - apart from early morning services between 4am and 7am used by savvy commuters, shift workers and anyone travelling to/from the airport for a cheap flight on a budget airline.

I don't think the suggestion is to sell them on trains where there were not spare seats, though I do know London Midland did have form for that. As I mentioned above, there are quite a few south WCML peak services (morning and evening), largely shoulder-peak but there is the odd prime peak one, where 8 cars would leave people behind but 12 has seats for all and some spare. With the 730s there will be even more of those, because the 160m length is no longer an available option, it'll be 120m (too short for most trains) or 240m. So those 240m trains with spare seats will be the ones to target with Advances.

 

[Pugwash]

Pricing a 2 or 3 day season tickets at off peak prices, but being allowed to be used during the peak might trigger some more demand.

 

[AM9]

Pricing a 2 or 3 day season tickets at off peak prices, but being allowed to be used during the peak might trigger some more demand.

The subsidising of commuter targeted peak tickets should either be discontinued, or just completely replaced with a discounted anytime ticket that can be used for all journeys including those for leisure.

 

[yorksrob]

Pricing a 2 or 3 day season tickets at off peak prices, but being allowed to be used during the peak might trigger some more demand.

If my commute were longer, that's the sort of thing I would probably go for.

As it is, there's not much difference between my peak and off-peak, so i'll probably continue buying day returns.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm still very firmly of the view that just pricing commuter Anytime Day Singles and Returns more reasonably is the answer. Perhaps a third on top of the Off Peak (but no more than that) would be reasonable. The difference is less than that in much of the country - it's just London that overprices them.

A very tiny minority of people on commuter trains is using them anyway, most use seasons, so this wouldn't cause massive losses from existing purchasers.

 

[Haywain]

A very tiny minority of people on commuter trains is using them anyway, most use seasons, so this wouldn't cause massive losses from existing purchasers.

Except for the need to then adjust season prices downwards because they would no longer represent a saving on buying day tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except for the need to then adjust season prices downwards because they would no longer represent a saving on buying day tickets.

On most routes period season tickets cost, per day on a 5 day week, about the same as an Off Peak Return per day, but with Anytime validity. There would be no need for that to change, the discount is just a bit smaller.

Perhaps the weekly could be abolished, or remain as a simple matter of convenience, priced at 5 x Anytime Day Return.

 

[Starmill]

I don't come across advanced fares from Guildford before 7am on SWR or GWR. Certainly not to London.

I don't think Advance tickets are ever available for just Guildford to London?

 

[Haywain]

On most routes period season tickets cost, per day on a 5 day week, about the same as an Off Peak Return per day, but with Anytime validity.

I don't agree - there are many routes where the season is significantly higher the Off Peak, based on around 4x Anytime Returns.

 

[Starmill]

I've heard that Advance tickets may well be available during "peak" times because as others have suggested, why have trains running around empty. Not sure its fleshed out though because that would somewhat discourage season ticket users, although they may prefer the guaranteed standard price across the year if they're still going in >80% of the time.

Northern have been offering £2 - 3 Advance tickets on almost every reservable train all day between East Didsbury and Manchester or Bolton and Manchester (for example, there are others) for many months, including 0730 - 0930 arrivals in thr city centre, and 1630 - 1830 departures. It has become quite established practice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't agree - there are many routes where the season is significantly higher the Off Peak, based on around 4x Anytime Returns.

Fair enough.

Perhaps we could settle on the Anytime (Day) Return being set to the level of 1/5 of the present weekly season, with the benefit being convenience and free weekend travel?

 

[Watershed]

Fair enough.

Perhaps we could settle on the Anytime (Day) Return being set to the level of 1/5 of the present weekly season, with the benefit being convenience and free weekend travel?

That would make a Stoke-on-Trent to Milton Keynes Anytime Return £39.80. A price that the public would probably find much more justifiable and affordable than the current £190.80, but there's not a snowball's chance in hell of the Treasury signing off on that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would make a Stoke-on-Trent to Milton Keynes Anytime Return £39.80. A price that the public would probably find much more justifiable and affordable than the current £190.80, but there's not a snowball's chance in hell of the Treasury signing off on that.

I used the word "commuter" deliberately, I wasn't referring to the rather more vexatious situation of InterCity fares which are in rather more of a mess due to severe overpricing of Anytime tickets, and weekly seasons being priced for 2 journeys a week due to the rather different demand.

Sorry...got in a mess there because the BRFares page is quite messy for MKC, so let's do it from Bletchley which has less of the TOC specific junk and Advances clogging it up.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Bletchley to Euston we have:
- Anytime Day Return 42.10
- 7 Day Season (non Travelcard) 122.60
- Off Peak Day Return 21.30 (morning restrictions only)
- Super Off Peak Day Return 16.00 (morning and evening restrictions)

There is also an Off Peak period return (34.80) but we can ignore this for now as it isn't relevant to commuting and is in an entirely different market, and I suspect that in any case very few of these are sold from somewhere so close to London. If we price the Anytime Day Single at half the Anytime Day Return we may want to abolish this.

So your new Anytime Day Return would be 122.60/5 = £24.52 (probably £24.60 as the railway prices in 10p increments)

That doesn't seem hugely out of kilter with the step between the other two walk up fares.

If you wanted to provide a price advantage for weekly seasons, you could go up a bit, i.e. base it on 4 days of 7 day seasons rather than 5, i.e. 122.60/4 = £30.65. To me that "feels" like a reasonable level - what do others think?

Indeed, it's probably only the former Network SouthEast area where this is even that much of an issue, because the Anytime "uplift" is much smaller on local fares outside London - random example, Burscough Bridge to Manchester Off Peak Day £9.80, Anytime Day £16.80 (so a multiplier of 1.71 as against the multiplier below of much closer to 2, or if you move back to a single level of off-peak for BLY-EUS then a fair bit more than 2). 7DS on that flow is £49 so roughly the Off Peak price per day worked out on 5 days, interestingly, or worked out on 4 days £12.25 a day (so maybe drop it a bit).

 

[AM9]

I used the word "commuter" deliberately, I wasn't referring to the rather more vexatious situation of InterCity fares which are in rather more of a mess due to severe overpricing of Anytime tickets, and weekly seasons being priced for 2 journeys a week due to the rather different demand.

Sorry...got in a mess there, so let's do it from Bletchley which has less of the TOC specific junk and Advances clogging it up. Give me a second.

Ah, I was just going to ask as to why the term 'commuter' was mentioned in respect of Anytime tickets as a commuter is just a passenger, the same as everybody else. If you are referring to 'commuter routes' where there is a significantly higher peak flow that makes sense. Of course, this would alter the relationship between long distance journeys involving part of the journey on commuter routes, typically a Devon/Cornwall ticket from (say) north of London. There are some tickets that don't have the 'Network South-East' easement, meaning there's a time when M-F return journey from the South-West can't be completed until after the typically 16:30-19:00 bar.

Except for the need to then adjust season prices downwards because they would no longer represent a saving on buying day tickets.

That wouldn't be such a bad thing. No subsidy and no complaints of paying for days off when there's no travel.

 

[JonathanH]

If you wanted to provide a price advantage for weekly seasons, you could go up a bit, i.e. base it on 4 days of 7 day seasons rather than 5, i.e. 122.60/4 = £30.65. To me that "feels" like a reasonable level - what do others think?

The problem is that the simple formulas don't work for all locations. How far out from London does the structure need to work for? What about other commuter flows? What works for Bletchley doesn't work for another location. There are some places where there is no differentiation between off-peak and anytime fares.

This is why RDG want to introduce fares reform with winners and losers of that reform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah, I was just going to ask as to why the term 'commuter' was mentioned in respect of Anytime tickets as a commuter is just a passenger, the same as everybody else.

The thing is that they aren't. A typical commuter flow is entirely or almost entirely walk-up travel (give or take silly shallow-discount predatory Advances like Northern vs. TPE) and is typically only single-day journeys with the odd exception, with most passengers requiring a level of flexibility in their journey in case they have to work an hour late or their theatre show finishes late. A typical IC flow is much more skewed towards Advances and people typically are more likely to make a multi-day journey and not need the flexibility as much, so it tends to be priced as a premium thing.

Yes, there's overlap, so there's no perfect solution - for instance, Anytime fares from "Market Ketteringborough" to London, which are IC-priced, are outrageous (resulting in a lot of unnecessary car journeys to travel from more-reasonably-priced Northampton instead), and the local services from Warrington to Wigan are provided by Avanti West Coast. However if you're going to fix it you've got to start somewhere. And to me the place where the problem (with regard to people commuting two or three days a week) is at its greatest is the former Network SouthEast area, and so to me that's the first place to look at fixing it.

How, and indeed if, we provide for people who live in Manchester and commute two days a week to London, and if that sort of very long distance commuting is a good thing or not anyway, is a much wider discussion and a much more difficult one to solve without seriously whacking revenue. HS2's likely "clean sweep" of the fares system (I'd be amazed if it wasn't standalone and fully yield managed with no seasons offered) might be the time for that discussion.

This is why RDG want to introduce fares reform with winners and losers of that reform.

That is very true. And we need to get our head around accepting that there will be losers in any fares reform, and stop seeing that as a reason not to bite the bullet properly. Even if that loser is the taxpayer because more subsidy is put in to avoid too many people seeing an increased fare at the point of use.

We probably also need to consider in that what sort of journeys are desirable to society and what sort are not. I am unconvinced that encouraging any sort of commuting (even say twice or thrice weekly) from Manchester to London, or any similar distance, is a good thing at all. Business travel yes, but not several times a week.

 

[Starmill]

That is very true. And we need to get our head around accepting that there will be losers in any fares reform, and stop seeing that as a reason not to bite the bullet properly.

I think the issue is that, as the Penalty Fares consultation shows, there's not actually a "winners and losers" argument here. Fares Reform, like higher Penalty Fares, is a tool which must be 'commercially generative', to borrow the language used by LNER in their job advert for a post dealing with the matter. It will be difficult to attract more people to travel, because the industry has a pretty poor reputation, has some significant reliability and other quality issues, is suffering badly on operations because of industrial relations weakness and the effect of the virus on the workforce, and because the government have deployed anti-rail messaging (remember the 'coronavirus takes the train too' poster). The only way to be 'commercially generative' in such an environment is to raise the price level. This is precisely what the government intends to do. The alternative was to rapidly cut costs, and it has pretty much been squandered, as nothing has been done yet and we're a year in. No wonder people are skeptical.

Even if that loser is the taxpayer because more subsidy is put in to avoid too many people seeing an increased fare at the point of use.

This is the only solution in my view, although not without cost cuts. In any case the government appear to have zero appetite for either.

 

[JonathanH]

The only way to be 'commercially generative' in such an environment is to raise the price level.

Arguably the way to do it is to make the fares higher but more convenient - ie single pricing PAYG, no break of journey, no capping, blanket peak morning and afternoon - where the single fare isn't set as half of the the current return fare - but the convenience means enough people don't notice they are paying more. It is no accident that this is where government and RDG policy is headed.

No one seems to grumble about the fares in London going up considerably for certain journeys between 4pm and 7pm in 2010 because it only affects people in outer London and doesn't apply for travel into Zone 1.