Forgotten Railcards: Proposals for system to refund charges

[cuccir]

Oh I love number 3 the best. With this one it adds yet another fantastic layer of bother for the TOC. I mean - you would have to pull the guard out of duty to ensure that they remembered the person they done this too leaving a service without a guard and therefore a cancellation of service as they would have to employ loads of staff to cover such things. Brilliant that. I cant stop laughing.

The other two still rely on a database created that could be accessed by all TOCS.They have enough trouble creating a simplified ticketing system.

I'm sorry, but you're not reading my posts. Where did I say a guard would have to come off the train?

It's very simple:

1. When buying your ticket, pay extra to attach it to another form of picture-carrying ID that you often have with you

2. If you don't have your railcard, buy a new ticket, if you have that ID with you. This would require, you're correct, some sort of database that a guard could access.

3. Take the valid ID and the replacement ticket to a ticket office within x days.

Also, I doubt that I can come up with a system of the top of my head on my own. Again perhaps read my previous post and see where I acknowledge that above? That doesn't mean it cant' be done.

I've nothing against the argument that there is currently no incentive and I don't expect the TOCs to change things. I fully understand their reasons and think that they're acceptable.

I don't agree that TOCs should go out of their way immediately to change things. But the idea that they cannot is ridiculous. Defend their current commercial decision if you want - but don't go claiming that these things can't be done.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
BTW - I think a lot of this is academic. As has been pointed out, it is likely that we will eventually have smartcards, at which point railcards will likely be attached to these.

And no, I think that if you've lost your smartcard, then you will have lost your ticket.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

No railcard = no discount - simple.
Probably won't be many years before a 'oyster' type card is brought out. Forget that and no doubt you would be on a standard fare paper ticket.

 

[Clip]

I'm sorry, but you're not reading my posts. Where did I say a guard would have to come off the train?

.

This bit where you talked about matching it all up. Of course the only person who could match up that it was you on the train would be the guard when you go and get the refund?

3. Link railcards to other forms of photographic ID (eg a driver's licence, passport). If you can produce this ID at the time of buying the replacement ticket (and it matches the person travelling!) and when getting the refund (and it still matches you) then fine

Though now Ive seen you have expanded on your idea and even said there should be an extra cost to be purchasing your ticket which then negates some of the discount your railcard provides. Thats brilliant. Whens a 1/3rd off not a third off? 'Only on the railway!!' would the headlines be, ridiculing the industry even further.

I don't work for National Rail but I do work for TfL. I get free staff travel on the Underground and London Buses. If I forget my pass (and I have) I have to pay - even if I have other staff ID. This is probably why I've only fogotten it 3 times in 10 years.

Was going to mention this also, ive done it for both me priv and me TfL pass and you know what? It was me own fault so I bought another ticket.


Is it really out of the realms of some of you to understand a straight forward and simple instruction and to understand that if you dont you will have to buy another ticket?

Or we just not bother having a railcard if its a little bit too much for you to carry around the two together.

 

[michael769]

As mentioned the number of refunds to could restricted to one (or max two per year), this would considerably limit the potential for abuse.

Yes it would mean that a dishonest subsection get an extra discount. This is a risk with many if not most customer service concessions. The concessions are made in other industries because the benefits of customer retention and reputation exceed the likely costs.

For the railways where there is no effective competition and for the most part no significant benefit to offering such concessions there is a risk that the cost of abuse would outweigh any limited benefits. This is one reason why it would not be in ToCs commercial interests to do so.

One of the problems we have is that those companies who make generous concessions set peoples expectations and some come to expect such things as a right in every case.

 

[Ferret]

What I want to know is why so many people are incapable of bringing something simple like a railcard with them! I mean, let's be honest, it's not difficult! If I'm taking a flight ticket, I always remember that it's worth naff all without a passport!

It's great that XC at the moment refund the genuinely forgetful in travel vouchers, but will they do so forever? Will any others follow suit?

 

[LexyBoy]

These threads always end up with proposals for some sort of complex system where everything's on a database and passengers get a certain number of chances etc etc.

My suggestion as I've said before: No railcard = excess up to the undiscounted rate plus a penalty "admin fee" (could be £10, could be £20).

Puts off casual offenders, acts as a lesson to remember one's railcard but isn't a massive fine completely out of proportion to what is in many cases a genuine error (as currently on IC routes). If there's reason to suspect deliberate fare evasion then a TIR could still be issued as now.

I'm not sure what to make of XC's initiative. Obviously good for their passengers (of whom a larger than average proportion are students I suspect), but also contributing to the general confusion over rules and sense of unfairness when other TOCs take a different approach.

 

[island]

Can someone please answer a simple question?

Why do you think people should have an entitlement to travel without a valid ticket?

I might be old-fashioned, but I manage to always have all my travel documentation with me. If I didn't, I would expect to suffer the increased cost involved. A friend of mine forgot her passport once when going on a flight, and had to get a taxi home and back to the airport, thankfully arriving just in time but £60 worse off. Like my previous thread entitled "incident on Virgin" or the like, you wouldn't do it on a plane, so why do you think you should be able to do it on the railway?

[A railcard discounted ticket is not valid without a railcard.]

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I am so glad the railways are staffed by paragons who never forget anything, and always read and understand all the terms and Conditions of every transaction they carry out. They act as a sure guard against the rest of the population, who are chancer thieves whose sole purpose is to rob the company....

I forget stuff all the time, but I'm big enough to admit when I am wrong and accept responsibility for my actions. I don't think anyone else should be or is any different.

If I fall foul of a condition I had not read, but agreed to, I accept I am in the wrong and act accordingly, not blame everyone but myself for such an unfair and outrageous set of conditions.

....Or perhaps the staff could accept that they are in a service industry, and that making and keeping the customer happy with the product is the ONLY way to protect revenue and ultimately continue the existence of the company and the industry.

If the passenger follows the conditions they agree to, there is, in most cases, no issues for anyone to deal with. The vast majority of problems encountered by the travelling public occur as a result of passengers NOT following the conditions they agreed to.

....My suggestion as I've said before: No railcard = excess up to the undiscounted rate plus a penalty "admin fee" (could be £10, could be £20)....

Not entirely different to the current rules. In most cases the end result is exactly the same.

Currently you have to buy a new ticket, but the discounted one (provided it is not an Advance) can be refunded minus an admin charge (£10) within 28 days. In addition, if you know before boarding that you have forgotten the Railcard you can change it before travel for the same arrangement.

 

[SS4]

I am so glad the railways are staffed by paragons who never forget anything, and always read and understand all the terms and Conditions of every transaction they carry out. They act as a sure guard against the rest of the population, who are chancer thieves whose sole purpose is to rob the company.
Or perhaps the staff could accept that they are in a service industry, and that making and keeping the customer happy with the product is the ONLY way to protect revenue and ultimately continue the existence of the company and the industry.

Perhaps blame should be directed, rather ironically, at those who blame others when it is they who have fallen foul of the regulations (especially with the internet and the info contained therein)

All my bus passes I've ever had have specifically stated I have to pay full fare if I forget my ticket and there shall be no reimbursement (remember, I have paid a monthly fee for use of this pass so I've already paid in a sense)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The railway will never keep its entire customer base happy, that much is obvious and I dare say it's replicated across the entire service industry. I'd hazard a guess that most of the customers would think if they pay through the nose why should someone get away with shirking their responsibilities? A logical consequence in my mind is that the railway doesn't need the custom and hassle. There is limited space so the TOCs can afford to be choosy about customer service, when was the last time Tesco or Sainsburys was overcrowded?

 

[LexyBoy]

Can someone please answer a simple question?

Why do you think people should have an entitlement to travel without a valid ticket?

It shouldn't be an absolute entitlement, but lumbering passengers with massive fines* for an easily made mistake isn't doing the industry any favours (I'm thinking IC services here).

Like my previous thread entitled "incident on Virgin" or the like, you wouldn't do it on a plane, so why do you think you should be able to do it on the railway?

Because trains != planes. The railways would be pretty useless for most people if they operated like airlines.

To put it another way: the other day I wanted to take a bus into town. I looked on the internet and I could find a timetable for the bus route I needed, but I couldn't work out how to book tickets. In fact I couldn't find prices at all! So, I walked to the bus stop to look for the ticket machine. There was nothing there though, and no information on how to book tickets. Obviously I wasn't going to just get on without a valid ticket as the cost could be huge.

* Not really fines of course, but still...

 

[Ferret]

A good point well made SS4. How about all the thousands and thousands of people who always have their railcards, travel on the correct train with advance tickets and never find themselves in the situation where they need to be absolved of all personal responsibility?! What must they think?!

 

[LexyBoy]

Not entirely different to the current rules. In most cases the end result is exactly the same.

Currently you have to buy a new ticket, but the discounted one (provided it is not an Advance) can be refunded minus an admin charge (£10) within 28 days. In addition, if you know before boarding that you have forgotten the Railcard you can change it before travel for the same arrangement.

On a long-distance journey the difference between an Anytime and discounted Off Peak (or Advance) fare can be huge though.

One would of course hope that passengers would be more likely to check their documents before making a long journey - I know I am. Also it would be useful to provide reminders (e.g. as on SWT TVMs to actually physically check the railcard before buying a ticket), and to try to prevent journeys starting with invalid tickets, as in many cases problems can be rectified without undue expense before travel has begun.

Since barriers are being installed in many IC stations, I would suggest the following tickets be automatically rejected for manual inspection: all railcard discounts, all Advance tickets, all tickets to stations closer than the first IC station called. Of course that might make it harder to shed station staff though

 

[Yew]

Surely you Just make railcards Photo id only? The guard then issues an excess for the excess, that is refunded if you go to the station with your face and your railcard (maybe another form of ID too?. (maybe minus a £5 admin fee or something)

 

[SS4]

Surely you Just make railcards Photo id only? The guard then issues an excess for the excess, that is refunded if you go to the station with your face and your railcard (maybe another form of ID too?. (maybe minus a £5 admin fee or something)

What if I leave my face at home?

It's still an expense though, if only in staff time that could be better served selling tickets/giving travel info

 

[b0b]

A good point well made SS4. How about all the thousands and thousands of people who always have their railcards, travel on the correct train with advance tickets and never find themselves in the situation where they need to be absolved of all personal responsibility?! What must they think?!

I understand that people forget things, even if they have the best of intentions and it would be nice if genuine forgetfulness could be be forgiven. The current system is poor, because its all down to discretion and encourages 'chancers'.

Something like the railcard punch hole idea is nice because you get one shot - the genuine forgetful person will not mind paying the full fare with the knowledge they can get it back, and while they're being refunded can strongly be reminded its not going to happen the next time. The chancer 'cant get away with it' because then its not up to the guard to apply discretion.

Seems like a win/win for pretty much everyone.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Of course, you could just apply the conditions rigidly as there are, dispense with discretion and everyone gets treated evenly.

 

[b0b]

Of course, you could just apply the conditions rigidly as there are, dispense with discretion and everyone gets treated evenly.

so why doesn't it happen?

 

[Deerfold]

To put it another way: the other day I wanted to take a bus into town. I looked on the internet and I could find a timetable for the bus route I needed, but I couldn't work out how to book tickets. In fact I couldn't find prices at all! So, I walked to the bus stop to look for the ticket machine. There was nothing there though, and no information on how to book tickets. Obviously I wasn't going to just get on without a valid ticket as the cost could be huge.

* Not really fines of course, but still...

That's be a bus that gives free travel to those with a Concessionary pass?

What do you think they give if somone's forgotten that pass?

Despite the fact that the Councils who issue the passes must have some sort of database recording them all...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

so why doesn't it happen?

Generally speaking they are, but that is seen as unfair to those who make 'genuine mistakes', "it's unfair", "rules should be made to allow for people like me", "discretion should be shown", etc, etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Clearly you have no idea what happens to the forms and what records are kept, so maybe you shouldn't comment on that.

You misunderstand me. I'm not on about fraudulent travel.
I'm just saying the railcard system belongs to the 70s and times have changed.

By "binning the forms" I mean the TOCs do not use the information they have been given by customers to automate the system for their benefit.
Tesco are forever sending me details of products they know I have purchased and might want more of.
By contrast my local TOCs have no idea where I have been or how much I have spent with them in the last year.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You misunderstand me. I'm not on about fraudulent travel.
I'm just saying the railcard system belongs to the 70s and times have changed.

By "binning the forms" I mean the TOCs do not use the information they have been given by customers to automate the system for their benefit.
Tesco are forever sending me details of products they know I have purchased and might want more of.
By contrast my local TOCs have no idea where I have been or how much I have spent with them in the last year.

The TOCs do not get the forms.

 

[swt_passenger]

The TOCs do not get the forms.

What does the SWT chap at my local station do with my Network Card form every year then?

Does he put it straight in his own bin, or are they collected up and put in a big bin at SWT HQ?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

They are sent to a department within ATOC.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What does the SWT chap at my local station do with my Network Card form every year then?
Does he put it straight in his own bin, or are they collected up and put in a big bin at SWT HQ?

Reminds me of the (wordless) Charlie Drake sketch where the Little Man takes his piggy bank to the Big Bank, who laugh at him, smash up the piggy bank to get the money and boot him out.
Having counted it they then turn round and put the money in their own giant piggy bank.
Very apposite, thinking about today's bankers.
And maybe TOCs...

 

[Clip]

You obviously didnt read the post above did you.

 

[pemma]

People get discounts by buying a special card that gives 1/3 off. Without the card, you must pay the full price. So, isn't it somewhat reasonable to expect to be asked to prove you got the card that gives you the discount?

In defence of the passenger the railcard has photo ID on it so it would be possible for an operator to sell the person who has forgotten their railcard a new ticket and then issue a refund minus an admin fee if they are later able to provide a valid railcard but had forgotten it.

However, in defence of the TOC if they were to do that they might start getting people who know they don't have their railcard on them purchasing discounted tickets from TVMs and the problem would escalate.

 

[jon0844]

In defence of the passenger the railcard has photo ID on it so it would be possible for an operator to sell the person who has forgotten their railcard a new ticket and then issue a refund minus an admin fee if they are later able to provide a valid railcard but had forgotten it.

However, in defence of the TOC if they were to do that they might start getting people who know they don't have their railcard on them purchasing discounted tickets from TVMs and the problem would escalate.

I have said before that someone should be sold a new ticket (no excess) and then get one or maybe two opportunities to get a refund when providing the railcard and paying an admin fee. Details will be logged, thus preventing an obvious way of scamming things by getting refunds for mates on their full price tickets.

There's no way for onboard staff to know who is telling the truth, nor should they have to. Keep to the rules; it's fairer for everyone and stops discretion seeing some people favoured over others, depending on the mood of staff or what sob story can be used.

However, I've also come to the conclusion that while alternative ideas would be nice and not that hard to set up, it's even easier to just keep things as they are - no railcard, new ticket. Harsh as it might seem. The best I'd suggest is discretion being used to perhaps sell a cheaper ticket if one exists than the full price open ticket - the passenger still pays more and so loses any incentive to just chance a discounted ticket from a TVM or booking online.

 

[swt_passenger]

In defence of the passenger the railcard has photo ID on it...

Except for all those thousands of railcards out there which don't have photos, as is usually pointed out...

 

[47421]

In my view passengers should have the chance to show up at a station with railcard within say 14 days of travelling without it. The current position can result in very harsh outcomes if the price of a new ticket is hundreds of pounds.

Consider this analogy. Police pull you over for broken brake light - a bang to rights criminal offence. What outcome would you expect? Prosecution? Perhaps, with what a £30 or £60 or something fine. But most people would consider that overkill, and would expect to be given ticket saying get it fixed and show up at police station with evidence it is fixed and that is the end of the matter. In my view should be same arrangement for forgotten railcards.

 

[island]

In my view passengers should have the chance to show up at a station with railcard within say 14 days of travelling without it. The current position can result in very harsh outcomes if the price of a new ticket is hundreds of pounds.

So I have a gold record card and I tell my four mates to travel everywhere using gold card discounted tickets, without holding a gold card. If they get stopped and challenged for the gold card, I give them the gold card (which does not have a name, much less a photo, on it), and they go to the station within the time period and have the matter closed. Repeat ad nauseam, and presto, five people travelling on one gold card.