Formula 1

[357]

He doesn't need to risk getting no points to get one extra point, which I suspect was simply to prevent Perez leading the standings for one race. Bigger picture and all that ( why stress a car that seems to have damage for little reward?)

We all know he will win the championship by miles!

I thought he was told he's free to push, or was it Checo that was told that?

Verstappen’s always been that dim though. It’s why he crashed into Ocon in Brazil because he couldn’t tolerate being unlapped, and it’s why he put himself in the wall at Silverstone. If he’d slotted in behind Hamilton at Silverstone in 21 like a grown up sensible boy he’d not have needed Michael Masi to give him a hand.

I have to say that if Verstappen is going to dominate then I’ll probably end up switching off F1, just like I did in the Schumacher years. There’s just something about the man that I cannot stand. Hamilton can be a bit of a whopper but Verstappen is just nasty; the casual racism on the radio being a great example. He’s a fantastic driver but, like with Schumacher, I’m not going to waste my Sundays watching someone with his attitude win.

Two crashes where the stewards found the other driver at fault and gave a penalty?

Masi giving hand?

Yes, the radio comments were totally unacceptable (and they were not towards Lewis for anyone reading who is unfamiliar with the situation) and yes he can be nasty - he is a victim of his family and the pressure they placed on him since a young age - but if you're going to have a discussion at least bother to use facts and not simply make up scenarios that are more likely to be found on F1 Twitter.

If you'd mentioned the collision where Max basically ran over Hamilton's head you'd be standing on better ground (both of them partly to blame, similar to the Ocon incident).

If you do stop watching F1, that's your choice. If Max is as dominant this year as he was last, then next year I'll likely watch highlights for some of the early morning races rather than waking up at silly o'clock.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Two crashes where the stewards found the other driver at fault and gave a penalty?

It takes two people to have a crash, my point is that Verstappen chose to race hard when there was no need and put himself in that position.

At Silverstone he lost 18 points compared to if he’d just given Hamilton room- if Masi hadn’t intervened, he’d have lost the title by 7 points.

I also think the stewards got Silverstone wrong, clearly they were affected by Red Bull’s histrionics.

Masi giving hand?

I’m not sure how else you can describe what Masi did. Only Masi will know if he did it deliberately (FWIW I think he was an idiot and nothing more), but the effect is the same.

If you'd mentioned the collision where Max basically ran over Hamilton's head you'd be standing on better ground (both of them partly to blame, similar to the Ocon incident).

I was talking about cases where a more intelligent driver than Verstappen would back out before a crash that wouldn’t benefit him. Regardless of blame, why was he racing Ocon? Ocon had just unlapped himself and was going quicker.

Italy was different- Verstappen had every incentive to punt Hamilton off the road as otherwise he’d lose points to him. Italy was nasty.

As for the Ocon incident, the FIA should have thrown the book at him and they didn’t, which only emboldened him. Same when he was hurling racist abuse at the stewards in Austin; in football the Fulham striker Mitrovic is looking at a 10-match ban for wagging a finger at a referee. In F1? Tumbleweed.

 

[sannox]

Same when he was hurling racist abuse at the stewards in Austin; in football the Fulham striker Mitrovic is looking at a 10-match ban for wagging a finger at a referee. In F1? Tumbleweed.

Is there a link to this? I genuinely had not heard this before. Mind you I struggle to see football as a guiding light and it's was more than wagging a finger... F1 teams and drivers are far better than footballers.

I felt sorry for Masi in the end. I genuinely think he just mucked it up. I still think F1 needs a 'green-white-checker' to avoid this type of incident.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is there a link to this? I genuinely had not heard this before.

Yep: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/...stands-by-us-gp-penalty-anger-970798/1372240/

Verstappen was angered by the decision, saying penalties like that were "killing the sport" and referring to an FIA steward – understood to be Garry Connelly - as an "idiot" and, in his native language, a "mongol".

Perhaps this was him using a swear word he didn’t understand, but having been told by many people just how offensive that slur is, he then proceeded to again hurl it at Lance Stroll in Portimao: https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/...tappen-racist-derogatory-remarks?platform=amp

The Mongolian government has written to motor racing's governing body, the FIA, to complain about F1 driver Max Verstappen's "racist and derogatory remarks" during the Portuguese Grand Prix.


After the incident, a radio message from Verstappen to his Red Bull team was broadcast. It included multiple profanities and a slur for which he was reprimanded, and concluded with "I have damage. What a mongol. I swear."

Vile.

Mind you I struggle to see football as a guiding light and it's was more than wagging a finger... F1 teams and drivers are far better than footballers.

I’d agree generally, but I think the FIA missed an opportunity to really enforce standards, especially when he did it again at Portimao.

 

[357]

I’d agree generally, but I think the FIA missed an opportunity to really enforce standards, especially when he did it again at Portimao.

The FIA are all over the place and generally not fit for purpose. Seems we finally agree on something!

The worst part of the Italy crash for me was not Max causing it, but Lewis trying to reverse out of it, knowing that Max was still in the car.

Footage shows Max standing up as Lewis has his wheels spinning in reverse. If he'd gone backwards, the red bull would have fallen, and Max could have been seriously injured.

I’m not sure how else you can describe what Masi did. Only Masi will know if he did it deliberately (FWIW I think he was an idiot and nothing more), but the effect is the same.

He had a track record of doing stupid things when under pressure. IMO the race should have been red flagged. The whole thing is embarrassing for all concerned.

Regardless of blame, why was he racing Ocon? Ocon had just unlapped himself and was going quicker

I seem to recall at the time that the FIA said that Ocon was the one racing Max instead of getting past in the next DRS zone.

Italy was different- Verstappen had every incentive to punt Hamilton off the road as otherwise he’d lose points to him. Italy was nasty.

I hope through this conversation you've changed your opinion that seemed to be that I'm a Netflix Max fanboy who drinks bull sperm - but I need to say that I have the exact same opinion of Silverstone as both of us have about the Italy incident. Neither driver came out of 2021 smelling of roses.

As for the Ocon incident, the FIA should have thrown the book at him and they didn’t, which only emboldened him. Same when he was hurling racist abuse at the stewards in Austin; in football the Fulham striker Mitrovic is looking at a 10-match ban for wagging a finger at a referee. In F1? Tumbleweed.

That was much more than wagging a finger, and much of the speech isn't recorded or broadcast in other sports.

In F1 the team radio for every driver is available at any time (it used to be live but now has a ~10 second delay), and while the drivers and teams need to be reminded of this, so do the people who think that this language doesn't happen in other sports.

Personally any racist radio messages should be at least a black flag and a ban for the next race.

The younger Netflix generation look up to people like Max, Lewis, and other drivers (and of course Gunter!). They need to understand that this sort of insult is absolutely not acceptable.

But of course we know that if it happened, Netflix wouldn't mention it in the series.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I hope through this conversation you've changed your opinion that seemed to be that I'm a Netflix Max fanboy who drinks bull sperm - but I need to say that I have the exact same opinion of Silverstone as both of us have about the Italy incident. Neither driver came out of 2021 smelling of roses.

I never said you were, so apologies if it came across that way. I was talking more generally about the element of F1 fans who’ve come in with Red Bull and Netflix, and it was in reply to someone else.

I still think Sky are not biased though, they’re generally pretty balanced overall, and the constant “British Bias” nonsense from certain Twitter elements is a bit boring. Not least because all broadcasters focus to an extent on “home” drivers- Sky Deutschland focus on Hulkenberg, the French focus on Alpine, Ocon, Gasly, and Leclerc.

Brundle will cheerfully criticise anyone and everyone- he’s turning into James Hunt, which is genuinely a compliment- and there’s a spread among the other pundits. There’s clearly no love lost between Button and Hamilton.

I’d say C4 were more biased, to be quite honest, what with Coulthard and Webber both being paid Red Bull ambassadors, so I tend to watch Sky.

I think Italy was similar in that both drivers could have avoided it, but in that case both drivers had an incentive to crash. When you’re behind in the title race you don’t wave the other guy behind, and equally if you’re in front then why not punt him off?

Hamilton wasn’t dangerous though- it was Verstappen who was trying to reverse off and it was Verstappen who left tyre marks on Hamilton’s helmet.

 

[sannox]

I never said you were, so apologies if it came across that way. I was talking more generally about the element of F1 fans who’ve come in with Red Bull and Netflix, and it was in reply to someone else.

I still think Sky are not biased though, they’re generally pretty balanced overall, and the constant “British Bias” nonsense from certain Twitter elements is a bit boring. Not least because all broadcasters focus to an extent on “home” drivers- Sky Deutschland focus on Hulkenberg, the French focus on Alpine, Ocon, Gasly, and Leclerc.

Brundle will cheerfully criticise anyone and everyone- he’s turning into James Hunt, which is genuinely a compliment- and there’s a spread among the other pundits. There’s clearly no love lost between Button and Hamilton.

I’d say C4 were more biased, to be quite honest, what with Coulthard and Webber both being paid Red Bull ambassadors, so I tend to watch Sky.

I think Italy was similar in that both drivers could have avoided it, but in that case both drivers had an incentive to crash. When you’re behind in the title race you don’t wave the other guy behind, and equally if you’re in front then why not punt him off?

Hamilton wasn’t dangerous though- it was Verstappen who was trying to reverse off and it was Verstappen who left tyre marks on Hamilton’s helmet.

The issue for Sky is the commentary is also the international feed which feeds some of the comments. I think it's hard not to have some bias, Murray Walker and Hill in 1996, but what I think is different is that Murray was always excited no matter who won. At times Vettel was winning in the early days you could feel Sky were almost disappointed! I find David Croft a hard listen too at times, but I can tune it out.

Italy was exacerbated by the silly kerbing that they have that launched Verstappen's car which should be the reason to get rid of such kerbs- without them it would have been a banging wheels incident. Both tried to continue though, Verstappen was climbing out when Hamilton tried to reverse which caused his team to tell him to switch it off.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The issue for Sky is the commentary is also the international feed which feeds some of the comments. I think it's hard not to have some bias, Murray Walker and Hill in 1996, but what I think is different is that Murray was always excited no matter who won. At times Vettel was winning in the early days you could feel Sky were almost disappointed! I find David Croft a hard listen too at times, but I can tune it out.

It’s the international feed for English commentary, other languages are available.

I do genuinely think a lot of the grievances are from people who think anyone who doesn’t fawn is “biased”. Brundle’s been commentating since 1997- after moonlighting as a commentator when not driving for Ligier in 1995- and Croft’s been doing it since 2006. They’re not biased, they’ve been doing it too long.

(As an aside, Brundle’s been doing it for 26 years, longer than Murray himself)

As for being disappointed about Vettel, I think most of us would have loved to see Alonso win a title for Ferrari, but it wasn’t to be.

 

[357]

Not least because all broadcasters focus to an extent on “home” drivers- Sky Deutschland focus on Hulkenberg, the French focus on Alpine, Ocon, Gasly, and Leclerc.

My comments weren't about Sky providing British coverage, but Sky providing the "International Stream".

Hamilton wasn’t dangerous though- it was Verstappen who was trying to reverse off and it was Verstappen who left tyre marks on Hamilton’s helmet.

What race were you watching?! The wheel on Hamilton's helmet was done during the crash. Max initially tried to reverse before understanding that his rear wheels are in the air and hitting the brake pedal to stop them spinning. Check here from 3:58 until 4:20:

 

[D365]

Ridiculous from race control today. With Alonso restored to P3, what exactly did Sainz take a penalty for.
Is Masi back in charge?

 

[najaB]

Ridiculous from race control today.

Don't know if I'd go as far as ridiculous, but you have to wonder why they bothered with a restart with two laps left. Especially since, as it turns out, it didn't actually change the results that much - other than eliminating a few competitiors.

 

[D365]

Don't know if I'd go as far as ridiculous, but you have to wonder why they bothered with a restart with two laps left. Especially since, as it turns out, it didn't actually change the results that much - other than eliminating a few competitiors.

Alpine got stuffed.

 

[DelW]

Another shambolic performance from a race control that seems much more interested in staging artificial last lap shootouts than rewarding teams and drivers who have delivered throughout the race. Liberty Media calling the shots for the benefit of Netflix viewing figures?

Toto Wolff said at the post race interviews something like "race control seem to throw in random red flags just for entertainment value". If that's really the way it's going, and I can't disagree with him, then it'll no longer be worth watching.

 

[SynthD]

The restart with two laps left could have been great - that’s in the hands of the drivers. It was worth doing.

One red flag was for gravel on the track. Another was for tyre debris. Both were too numerous to deal with while a safety car lead pack goes around.

 

[D365]

The restart with two laps left could have been great - that’s in the hands of the drivers. It was worth doing.

My issue is with race control's handling of the Lap 57 aftermath. By virtue of returning to the pits, Alonso got to return to P3, while Sainz was punished for a collision that was nullified.

 

[SynthD]

The commentators implied that the stewards would make a report saying these things that have never happened together before, don’t go together. The rules need adjusting.

 

[DelW]

The restart with two laps left could have been great - that’s in the hands of the drivers. It was worth doing.

One red flag was for gravel on the track. Another was for tyre debris. Both were too numerous to deal with while a safety car lead pack goes around.

At the time, the TV commentators and drivers' radio conversations were incredulous about the Magnussen red flag, some of the drivers literally disbelieving what they were being told by their pits. Nor surprisingly, several drivers have questioned the decision making in post race interviews.

One of the apparently unfair consequences of the various u-turns is that some of the results of the lap 57 crashes were overturned (e.g. Alonso promoted from back of the field to third) while others stood (e.g. Sainz penalised out of the points, Alpine losing all their potential points). Once again, positions and points were decided by race officials' questionable priority of stage-managing a "finish".

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

My issue is with race control's handling of the Lap 57 aftermath. By virtue of returning to the pits, Alonso got to return to P3, while Sainz was punished for a collision that was nullified.

Ferraris team principle implied on C4 they were going to challenge it either.

 

[90sWereBetter]

An utterly embarassing way to conclude what had been a fairly decent race. I'm sick of the FIA and Liberty Media using the red flag as a tool to spice up the action. I

The drivers absolutely deserve a ton of the blame too. I know I'm at risk of sounding like an old fart at only 28 years of age, but seeing the driving standards during the second restart made me nostalgic for the days of Hakkinen and Schumacher. People say this is the most talented era of Formula 1, but I haven't seen much evidence of it lately.

 

[kristiang85]

An utterly embarassing way to conclude what had been a fairly decent race. I'm sick of the FIA and Liberty Media using the red flag as a tool to spice up the action. I

The drivers absolutely deserve a ton of the blame too. I know I'm at risk of sounding like an old fart at only 28 years of age, but seeing the driving standards during the second restart made me nostalgic for the days of Hakkinen and Schumacher. People say this is the most talented era of Formula 1, but I haven't seen much evidence of it lately.

I can't really blame the drivers for the second restart. It was at the end of a race where they are a bit more tired than a usual start, the track was dirty, the sun was in their eyes, and suddenly everything was on the line. It was an incredibly predictable accident waiting to happen.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I can't really blame the drivers for the second restart. It was at the end of a race where they are a bit more tired than a usual start, the track was dirty, the sun was in their eyes, and suddenly everything was on the line. It was an incredibly predictable accident waiting to happen.

Yes but they are supposed to be the best in the world and be very aware of cold tyres and brakes but too many saw opportunity and as a result some teams have expensive bills for car repairs.

 

[66701GBRF]

Ridiculous from race control today. With Alonso restored to P3, what exactly did Sainz take a penalty for.
Is Masi back in charge?

I can't say whether the penalty was justified or not but you are generally punished for the act, not necessarily the outcome.

Don't know if I'd go as far as ridiculous, but you have to wonder why they bothered with a restart with two laps left. Especially since, as it turns out, it didn't actually change the results that much - other than eliminating a few competitiors.

It eliminated those that couldn't finish the race under their own power as required by the regulations, and as mentioned during the broadcast, there is always the chance of other cars dropping out even under safety car conditions.

 

[sannox]

I wonder if the red flag is going to be more commonly used at the end of GP's to avoid the situation related to Abu Dhabi

 

[BJames]

I rarely venture over to this thread (will try and do so more!) so I'm not sure if this has been discussed before so apologies if so, but I saw this on Twitter today - I would be interested as to some opinions on this weekend's race format and the revised sprint setup:

Essentially Saturday as a standalone event (although I understand that grid penalties actually incurred during the sprint will reflect on the race, but not grid penalties in the sprint quali). Seems like mixed opinions online so would be good to hear from this board too.

 

[Pete_uk]

I'm at the point where I'm non plussed by all this.

 

[66701GBRF]

From a spectators perspective more action can't be a bad thing in my opinion.

 

[D365]

From a spectators perspective more action can't be a bad thing in my opinion.

But it has to be counteracted with a dose of ”what’s the point”.

 

[66701GBRF]

What can also be counteracted as "why not"?

 

[birchesgreen]

I'm not a fan of the sprints, its one of those things which sounded good in concept but in reality is a bit of a let down.

 

[43172]

I think the way the sprint race doesn't affect the main grid for the Sunday is how it should've been to start off with, rather than hand out "get out of jail free" cards to the top drivers, such as in Brazil 2021. Though i can see backmarkers parking cars before the end and claim it was reliability related to save on engine mileage and with reguards to the cost cap.