Franchising Devolution to Wales

[LNW-GW Joint]

The BBC is reporting (in the context of reviewing Welsh devolution more generally) that the DfT is talking to the WG about full devolution for the Wales & Borders franchise.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-21676260

It adds: "The Department for Transport is in discussion with the Welsh government to assess the feasibility of devolving franchise responsibilities, the financial and legal requirements of doing so and how the UK government's interests in services affecting locations in England could be protected."

 

[pemma]

There's hundreds of miles of lines served by ATW trains in England. How would these be catered for under a Welsh controlled franchise? Would, for instance, Manchester to South Wales be worked by CrossCountry or London Midland between Manchester and Hereford with a change of operator there?

 

[dggar]

could be called LMXC-WG Joint Railways

 

[anthony263]

could be called LMXC-WG Joint Railways

Or we could see the return of Wales & Borders trains name. That said I would like to see the Valley lines branded under a different name similar to that employed by London Overground

 

[pemma]

Or we could see the return of Wales & Borders trains name. That said I would like to see the Valley lines branded under a different name similar to that employed by London Overground

London Overground isn't part of a franchise though. Are you talking about having two franchises as it was in the past or a separate brand name - similar to when 'transpenniexpress' was used by Northern Spirit and then Arriva Trains Northern?

 

[anthony263]

London Overground isn't part of a franchise though. Are you talking about having two franchises as it was in the past or a separate brand name - similar to when 'transpenniexpress' was used by Northern Spirit and then Arriva Trains Northern?

I am talking about a seperate brand name (sorry should have made that clearer in my earlier post) especially since it did prove popular when the Valley lines were a seperate brand in the past. This will include the Maesteg & Ebbw Vale services as well.

 

[WatcherZero]

Been talked about for a while as something to come in around the time of the Cardiff Metro completion, same problems with English tocs passing into Scotland and Scotrail passing into England, the world hasnt ended there.

 

[charlee]

Can see Wales and Scotland nationalising there railways within 10 years.

 

[Morgsie]

What about the infrastructure side of things, major projects. I understand that this is blurred, both WG and DfT

 

[Zoe]

Can see Wales and Scotland nationalising there railways within 10 years.

Not possible, the overall structure of the railways as dictated by the Railways Act 1993 is a reserved matter.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Or we could see the return of Wales & Borders trains name. That said I would like to see the Valley lines branded under a different name similar to that employed by London Overground

Wales and Borders never went away - it's the formal name of Arriva's franchise.
ATW is just the brand name.

Can see Wales and Scotland nationalising there railways within 10 years.

Also as Scotland has found out, passenger rail services have to be franchised under the UK model (they can't move them to public ownership).

What about the infrastructure side of things, major projects. I understand that this is blurred, both WG and DfT

This is nearly all with DfT. NR Wales is not funded separately.
I shouldn't think this will change unless Wales gets financial devolution like Scotland, which seems unlikely.

 

[Zoe]

Also as Scotland has found out, passenger rail services have to be franchised under the UK model

The model dictated by the Railways Act 1993 only applies to Great Britain though, it's not a model covering all of the UK. Northern Ireland is still nationalized.

 

[E-Rail]

Not possible, the overall structure of the railways as dictated by the Railways Act 1993 is a reserved matter.

The 1993 Act won't apply in Scotland after 2016 if the SNP win the referendum. I would say if Salmond achieves independence from the UK, nationalised rail in Scotland is a dead cert.

What will be more interesting is what will happen to cross border IC services and the onboard border control arrangements if Scotland (as the SNP wish) join the EU and are legally obliged to implement Schegen, which would require physical borders with passport controls between England and Scotland.

 

[Zoe]

The 1993 Act won't apply in Scotland after 2016 if the SNP win the referendum. I would say if Salmond achieves independence from the UK, nationalised rail in Scotland is a dead cert.

The SNP were quite keen on re-regulating the buses until it got close to an election which they looked like winning when the policy quietly disappeared so I wouldn't count on it.

 

[tbtc]

The SNP quite very keen on re-regulating the buses until it got close to an election which they looked like winning when the policy quietly disappeared so I wouldn't count on it.

Something to do with donations from a chap called Souter or just coincidence?

Been talked about for a while as something to come in around the time of the Cardiff Metro completion, same problems with English tocs passing into Scotland and Scotrail passing into England, the world hasnt ended there.

Big difference is that ScotRail don't operate any services wholly within England (and there are virtually no services by "English" TOCs wholly within Scotland, apart from a couple of placing journeys to get Craigentinny based stock to Aberdeen).

The "Borders" part of the Wales & Borders franchise has been neglected (other than putting up Welsh signage in England of course) - compare the obsession with Holyhead - Cardiff with the stagnation in service provision from Chester to Manchester.

 

[pemma]

Big difference is that ScotRail don't operate any services wholly within England (and there are virtually no services by "English" TOCs wholly within Scotland, apart from a couple of placing journeys to get Craigentinny based stock to Aberdeen).

I think services like Chester-Crewe and Crewe-Shrewsbury could easily hand over to someone like LM.

The Manchester and Birmingham to Wales services are perhaps the bigger issue. Scotrail don't run services mainly in England that go in to Scotland, like many of the ATW regional routes do. Take away the regional routes from that franchise and you'd have a fragmented franchise that would need a high subsidy.

 

[The Planner]

High subsidy? more like massive subsidy, take Manchester - Cardiff and the Birmingham's off the franchise and the income would plummet. It would be madness to do that.

 

[Gareth Marston]

High subsidy? more like massive subsidy, take Manchester - Cardiff and the Birmingham's off the franchise and the income would plummet. It would be madness to do that.

That's only one part of the equation I can see the councils and other stakeholders in the Marches and elsewhere wanting far more say on what the Wales and Borders f franchise does and quite rightly too. I'm sure if Hereford was given the choice it would ditch its 9 trains a day to Holyhead for 9 trains day direct to Bristol.

The route lost its 3 direct trains a day to Bristol and beyond when the franchise was created, they were busy and popular 10 years ago so imagine what they would be like now. Far more bums on seats and revenue would have accrued from a 2 hourly service from Liverpool to Bristol via the Marches than will ever be made by north to south Wales trains.

Those that think its going to be Welsh decisions made in Wales are in for a rude shock there's issues on capacity between Chester to Manchester, Shrewsbury and Birmingham as well as between Manchester and Hereford along the Marches to address before anyone starts playing hourly trains from Holyhead to Cardiff.

 

[PR1Berske]

If "Trenau Cymru"* becomes a ScotRail-type for Wales, then there will be many a unit freed up from Northern Wales for the rest of England, and that'll be good news for Northern Rail.

So Cymru am byth, I say....





*Off the top of my head, sure someone will correct me

 

[Gareth Marston]

If "Trenau Cymru"* becomes a ScotRail-type for Wales, then there will be many a unit freed up from Northern Wales for the rest of England, and that'll be good news for Northern Rail.

So Cymru am byth, I say....





*Off the top of my head, sure someone will correct me

How? ?

 

[WelshZ]

Government control is the plan of Labour and Plaid in the assembly. Although the two differ in the respect of Plaid wanting outright nationalisation and Labour preferring a Scotrail style setup.

Now Plaid might want nationalisation but they cannot get it as the Railway Act 1993 makes it a reserved move. And the outright lie being bandied about that European law stops a nationalised system, well last time I checked we are the only private system in Europe. other EU members do allow open access competition because that was what the directive was referring to in the first place. I count the Railways Act 1993 as one of national sabotage driven by ideology and greed as it was the worst form of privatisation possible to undertake AND on top of that made sure that it would be incredibly difficult to undo any part of the system. Now I can see this changing because of the views of both the Assembly here in Wales and the Scottish Parliament pushing for a change to that government written stupidity so that they can re-nationalise.

On a much less bitter note the livery and name for the new operator would be interesting. two I think are most possible to be chosen are Trenau Cymru (Welsh Trains) and Rheilffyrdd Cymru (Welsh Railways) and for the livery I could see an updated Valley Lines one being used. Although the 67 + Carriages would look good in a livery of black and gold if we use the colours of the St David cross

 

[TDK]

If the WAG did run the Wales and Borders Franchise would they receive the same government subsidy as ATW are getting? This could be a good move for the passenger but what would happen to the staff if the WAG decided to operate just in Wales?

There are many factors on this proposal and personally the only and best way this whould be done is the WAG take on the Franchise as is with guarentees that the current services remain and run it as a non-profit business putting any profit back into the running of the services, however I am not a polititon and know nothing about it so hey we will all wait and see.

 

[Zoe]

And the outright lie being bandied about that European law stops a nationalised system

While the EU directive does not ban nationalized railways, the BR structure at the time of privatization (which was only created two years earlier) could not have continued. Under "Orgainzing for Quality" in 1992 the sectors took over both infrastructure and operations but the EU directive required the separation of accounting for these. It may well have been considered wasteful to do a separate split of each sector into infrastructure and operations and so we could still have ended up with a "Railtrack" although quite possibly still a subsidiary of BR. The sectors were further divided into divisions/profit centres which closely mirrored the first round of franchising so I expect the structure may well have been quite similar with each division paying the infrastructure owner a track access charge and the "delay minutes" that are often complained about as a result of privatization would still exist.

There's also the issue of Open Access companies I can see the possibility where someone like Virgin could have tried to enter the market bidding against Intercity for paths.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are many factors on this proposal and personally the only and best way this whould be done is the WAG take on the Franchise as is with guarentees that the current services remain and run it as a non-profit business putting any profit back into the running of the services, however I am not a polititon and know nothing about it so hey we will all wait and see.

Unfortunately as an emanation of the Crown they are prohibited from holding the franchise by the Railways Act 1993. I'm not sure this would prevent them from taking the revenue risk though and letting a franchise to simply run the trains.

 

[PR1Berske]

How? ?

......oh yeah, only Arriva run to the North.....Oops, I'm getting my eras mixed up.......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On a much less bitter note the livery and name for the new operator would be interesting. two I think are most possible to be chosen are Trenau Cymru (Welsh Trains) and Rheilffyrdd Cymru (Welsh Railways) and for the livery I could see an updated Valley Lines one being used. Although the 67 + Carriages would look good in a livery of black and gold if we use the colours of the St David cross

I would like to hear manual platform announcements declaring a platform alteration for a "Rheilffyrdd Cymru" service.......

 

[pemma]

I would like to hear manual platform announcements declaring a platform alteration for a "Rheilffyrdd Cymru" service.......

I'd be happy with a Welsh franchise having a Welsh name. However, at the moment it is not a Welsh franchise but still treated like one:
* Manchester-Shrewsbury and Manchester-Chester are neglected compared to the North Wales Coast.
* Some services are 100% in England but Welsh language station signs and PIS announcements are still used.
* The name of the franchise is 'Arriva Trains Wales' when the franchise is the 'Wales and Borders' franchise.

At least I suppose it's not as bad as GHA Coaches - what's the point of having this on destination displays of buses running empty between Macclesfield and Knutsford or Macclesfield and Wilmslow: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gha-group-photos/6060361360/ ?

 

[PR1Berske]

I'd be happy with a Welsh franchise having a Welsh name. However, at the moment it is not a Welsh franchise but still treated like one:
* Manchester-Shrewsbury and Manchester-Chester are neglected compared to the North Wales Coast.
* Some services are 100% in England but Welsh language station signs and PIS announcements are still used.
* The name of the franchise is 'Arriva Trains Wales' when the franchise is the 'Wales and Borders' franchise.

At least I suppose it's not as bad as GHA Coaches - what's the point of having this on destination displays of buses running empty between Macclesfield and Knutsford or Macclesfield and Wilmslow: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gha-group-photos/6060361360/ ?

Well that's a third potential branding then - "Cymru a'r Gororau"

 

[Gareth]

Whilst I support devolution, although it's currently not fair how some areas have more devolution than others and then the majority of the country doesn't have any; I don't think railways should be a part of that. On the whole, the railways of Great Britain are one system and are not easily split into regions. I'm pretty sure that in actual federal countries, such as Switzerland and the United States, where the constituent states are almost entirely self-governing internally, railways remain a federal matter. It should be the same for the UK. The only exceptions I would consider would be Northern Ireland, Merseyrail and possibly London Overground, the Valley Lines and the SPT commuter system.

 

[tbtc]

If the WAG did run the Wales and Borders Franchise would they receive the same government subsidy as ATW are getting? This could be a good move for the passenger but what would happen to the staff if the WAG decided to operate just in Wales?

There are many factors on this proposal and personally the only and best way this whould be done is the WAG take on the Franchise as is with guarentees that the current services remain and run it as a non-profit business putting any profit back into the running of the services, however I am not a polititon and know nothing about it so hey we will all wait and see.

I don't know the answer to your initial question, but the worry is that even if the WAG* got the same subsidy that they'd skew it towards "favoured" areas.

That's also pre-supposing that a politician-run franchise would make any profit (since they'd have no incentive to focus resources efficiently).

In a few years time, once we've had electrification of the Valley Lines and out to Swansea, there's an argument (from an operational perspective) of giving the (mainly electrified) South Wales routes to the Greater Western franchise (plus a handful of DMUs for Swansea - Pembroke/ Fishguard/ Milford/ HOWL) - that would encourage EMUs along the M4 corridor (Swansea to Bristol etc).

You'd then have a diesel TOC running the remainder of Welsh services, or maybe split them into the current Northern/ LM/ XC services. However, the politicians wouldn't like that.

(* - how come some of the Nationalists on here complain that I am anti-Welsh for referring to the "WAG" but never complain about Welsh members doing the same? strange)

 

[pemma]

Well that's a third potential branding then - "Cymru a'r Gororau"

Not quite. If it remains as Wales and Borders the name should be half Welsh and half English.

 

[PR1Berske]

Not quite. If it remains as Wales and Borders the name should be half Welsh and half English.

There's a multi-million pound consultancy and design fee going for someone able to makle "WB/CG" into a viable logo.....