Freight drivers!!

[Lawman]

Do most freight drivers who work from Scotland to England work alone or do they have a second man in the cab with them for safety reasons??

Secondly, does anyone know if Motherwell TMD is operational or is it closed? :roll:

 

[the sniper]

Do most freight drivers who work from Scotland to England work alone or do they have a second man in the cab with them for safety reasons??

Which company? Most freight trains are single crewed I believe, and the 'Secondman' role as it was no longer exists, though some FOCs have roles that are similar, like GBRf who have 'assistant train managers'. I think there's a chap on here who is one of these or knows about them, he might be able to give you more info.

 

[Lawman]

Cheers pal.. the Company was EWS!!

 

[Legzr1]

Not on EWS (now DBS but paint is expensive...) - there are often drivers getting a lift (passing) or route learning/refreshing which means more than one in the cab.

Motherwell TMD no longer exists - it's been closed for some years now (staff moved to Mossend)

 

[Lawman]

Not on EWS (now DBS but paint is expensive...) - there are often drivers getting a lift (passing) or route learning/refreshing which means more than one in the cab.

Motherwell TMD no longer exists - it's been closed for some years now (staff moved to Mossend)

I know the sheds are still there etc however would they never be used in emergency situations or is it totally gone?

 

[GB]

Do most freight drivers who work from Scotland to England work alone or do they have a second man in the cab with them for safety reasons??

There are certain times at which there maybe two in a cab, but predominantly freight drivers work alone under normal conditions. The old secondman concept is gone, although most FOCs employ groundstaff which can be a good starting point. I think the closest you will get to the secondman concept is either with GBRF as an Assistant Train Manager (known as ATMs) or DRS's trainmen...but even with these there will be no driving turns or experience.

Also at GBRF there is a grade known as ATM (p), this is an ATM that is passed competent to drive locos around private yards.

 

[37401]

I e-mailed GBRF about the ATM Apprentiship the other day, really hope its something I can do

 

[GB]

Just be aware that the GB ATM apprenticeship scheme is not what it used to be. There is no more automatic right to be put forward for driving after you have done the two year ground staff requirment and I know several ATMs that have been waiting 5+ years. It can be done, but its generally not a quick ticket anymore.

 

[Intermodal]

To follow on from this question a bit, I'd like to ask as to why we ever had secondmen in the first place if drivers were competent to operate alone? How did they justify this additional expense?

 

[Bill EWS]

Second Maning came from the Fireman grade. Early Diesels had steam boilers for train heating and this was part of their responsibility. Likewise, it was their responsibilty to hook and unhook locomtives from their train. They were next in line for train driving and were learning the job as they waited for an opening to become driver. While the train was on the move they were as responsible as the driver for spotting difficult signalling and were a second pair of eyes in the cab.

Many had to move away from their home depots to get their driving jobs as promotion was very slow in general But many depots, especally in the south of England had difficulty finding new staff and this made openings for those, such as myself, who were prepared to move away.

One of the good points of double manning is that most secondmen/woman were so experienced that it was simply a matter of getting through the driving school to make driver. There was no need for expensive driving simulators in those days, even if they had been invented.

With Electric train heating becoming coming the norm and the removal of other jobs they carried out the need fr second maning was slowly reducing, although it lasted long enough for Guards, who became redundant with the ending of loose-coupled trains and they were able to transfer into the Second Man grade and became drivers themselves over the years.

Complete secondmaning came to an end when agreements with managemnt and the unions plus the introduction of newer in-cab safety technology made single-maning a safe option.

 

[the sniper]

To follow on from this question a bit, I'd like to ask as to why we ever had secondmen in the first place if drivers were competent to operate alone? How did they justify this additional expense?

Secondmen were the follow on from the firemen. When diesel was brought in, I don't think the Drivers (or Unions) wanted to loose the presence of another chap in the cab as it was what they were used. Also, when you consider there were fewer safety systems in those days and more semaphore signaling, it was probably quite reassuring to have someone else alongside you, making sure you hadn't missed anything.

It's important to remember that secondmen were often the train drivers of the future. Instead of the long process of training that goes on now, drivers would have done much of their learning in the secondman grade, before undergoing a fairly short (by modern standards) classroom training process. From what I've read (I'm 21, so I can't speak from first had experience! ), you'd have to prove your reliability and suitability for the driving grade during your time as a secondman.

Also, they didn't have a hob on the other side of the cab for no reason. Who'd make the brew if the secondman wasn't there!

(Anyone feel free to correct what I've said, I'm only going on what I've read on the net. )

EDIT: Doh, Bill gave a better answer quicker (Shouldn't be watching Top Gear and posting at the same time, slows me down :P ). Good to know I wasn't far off though.)

 

[Bill EWS]

Well done The Sniper. You were pretty close for a none-railway person. In the first instance I moved from Aberdeen, Kittybrewster Depot to Didcot and being upgraded from the Engine Cleaning grade to the Fireing grade. After some years I then moved to Marylebone Depot to gain my driving job. That took me almost 12 years to become driver. However it would have taken another six years if I had stayed at Didcot and when you have a young family that six years extra of driving money made a great difference.

There were many secondmen who never moved away and quite a few of them never made driver 'offically' by the time they retired. However they did get the driving rate after a fixed period of years. I don't remember what that was at the moment.

 

[Soft Mick]

Do most freight drivers who work from Scotland to England work alone or do they have a second man in the cab with them for safety reasons??

Secondly, does anyone know if Motherwell TMD is operational or is it closed? :roll:

We're all alone bar for drivers getting a lift back off a train, and Motherwell TMD is closed, empty and neglected.

 

[Intermodal]

Thanks for the answers both of you - very interesting!

 

[38Cto15E]

When I was freight guard in the very early 70's, quite often I had to act as secondman for light loco moves if there was no second man rostered for the turn.
You could only second man a light engine off the shed for I think a maximum of 15 miles, if you were returning light engine to the shed from a goods turn distance was no object.
I remember second manning on a Class31 on the WCML from Stoke to leicester.
If a driver was alone on a fully fitted freight it was not unusual for the guard to sit up front with the driver rather than in the back cab where he was supposed to be.
I would think that being a freight driver today is more fun than being a passenger driver.

 

[Bill EWS]

I would have agreed with you, prior to TPWS, that is! Freight was left pretty much to itself, except in more serious incidents, whereas due to the obvious media interest and possible danger to the public a passenger train driver always felt more 'eyes' on them than while on a freight train. However, with TPWS (The spy in the cab) there isn't so much freedom and you are always aware that you are being watched/recorded whatever type of train you may be driving today.

The only thing that I appreciated TPWS for was that it could prove a driver innocent as much as guilty when caught up in an incident. I enjoyed all types of train driving much more so than after TPWS came about. However, as this is now the 'norm' I expect today's drivers simply accept that is just how it is.

 

[GB]

I think your confusing TPWS with the OTDR/OTMR. But yes I agree, it can either be your best friend or worst enemy.

 

[Legzr1]

I honestly think there is little to seperate freight and passenger drivers nowadays.

OTMR,right-time departures,booked path only,nit-picking from middle-management attempting to keep a job/scoring points for their next re-application of their own job in 6 months time,having to explain delays of over 90 seconds,arguing over delay attribution at the end of shift etc etc.

 

[chuffchuff]

Also if a Secondman was rostered with the Driver he didn't need to be booked
a PNB