Fundamental question regarding split tickets

[jcside]

I have been searching various rail user forums for a while but haven't found a definitive answer to the following question, can anyone resolve for me ?

I am a daily commuter from Portslade to London Bridge.
Standard weekly ticket Portslade to London Terminals costs £107.20.

I understand the rule about split tickets whereby the train must call at the station where the split between tickets occurs, however is it OK if the tickets are between destinations that I am not actually travelling to ?

For instance, my idea would be to buy the following (weekly tickets):
Portslade to Epsom (via Croydon), costs £61.80
Balham to London Terminals (via Croydon), costs £23.40

I get a train from Portslade to London Bridge that calls at East Croydon, and the above tickets cover the whole route, but I simply don't use the Croydon to Epsom / Croydon to Balham parts of my tickets.

Many thanks

 

[maniacmartin]

Assuming the tickets have permitted routes via Croydon (which doesn't appear to be the case), then yes this is valid. National Rail season tickets allow you to break your journey at any intermediate station on a permitted route. This includes starting or stopping short. As it is not the case that both tickets are zonal, the train must call at the station where you switch from one ticket to another.

In the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, see:
- Section 30 for Break of journey on season tickets (references section 16)
- Section 19b for combining tickets in a single journey

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I see this as two questions.

Firstly, is it permissable to use the two ticekts you propose for journies which 'stop short' or 'start short' of one of the stations printed on the ticket?
Normally, we would have to examine the restrictions attached to the ticket type and the actual ticket. Howver, you have asked about weekly season tickets, and these carry a general permission to use them for travel along part of the route between the named stations.
Having established that you can use the tickets for 'short' journeys, we can then look at the 'split ticket' question:

The second question is whether it is permissable to 'split' the overall journey into two elements which are each covered by tickets which are otherwise valid for those two elements. As you've already noted, the trains would stop at the station where the validity of one ticket is discarded and the validity of the next one is invoked. That would authorise your travel on the through journey.

[As an aside, please don't be confused by the additional permission for season ticket holders to travel on trains which do NOT stop at the 'splitting station', as this only applies when one ticket is a season, and the other(s) are not].

 

[Romilly]

Is the £23.40 Balham-London ticket actually valid via East Croydon? National Rail Enquiries says that I need two tickets to do Balham-Croydon-London, i.e. that via Croydon is not a permitted route on a Balham-London ticket.

 

[alastair]

I have been searching various rail user forums for a while but haven't found a definitive answer to the following question, can anyone resolve for me ?

I am a daily commuter from Portslade to London Bridge.
Standard weekly ticket Portslade to London Terminals costs £107.20.

I understand the rule about split tickets whereby the train must call at the station where the split between tickets occurs, however is it OK if the tickets are between destinations that I am not actually travelling to ?

For instance, my idea would be to buy the following (weekly tickets):
Portslade to Epsom (via Croydon), costs £61.80
Balham to London Terminals (via Croydon), costs £23.40

I get a train from Portslade to London Bridge that calls at East Croydon, and the above tickets cover the whole route, but I simply don't use the Croydon to Epsom / Croydon to Balham parts of my tickets.

Many thanks

I am mystified by this, if a Balham/London Terminals ticket at £23.40 is valid via Croydon(which is 6 miles in the "wrong" direction),why would anyone buy a Croydon/London Terminals weekly which is £40.50?

Apologies if I have misunderstood the point being made.

 

[jcside]

I think it is, but not 100% sure. The reason I thought it would be OK is that when I go to the National Rail journey planner, some of the results of a 'Balham to London Bridge' enquiry involve a change at East Croydon. Not sure if that alone validates the route, I haven't embarked on the ATOC routing guide. (that's in response to alastair's post by the way)

 

[greatkingrat]

I don't see how a Balham - London Terminals season would be valid via Croydon.

While the Journey Planner will give options via Croydon, it also says you need two tickets for the journey.

You could try a Selhurst - London season instead which NRE does show as valid via Croydon.

 

[bb21]

I have been searching various rail user forums for a while but haven't found a definitive answer to the following question, can anyone resolve for me ?

I am a daily commuter from Portslade to London Bridge.
Standard weekly ticket Portslade to London Terminals costs £107.20.

I understand the rule about split tickets whereby the train must call at the station where the split between tickets occurs, however is it OK if the tickets are between destinations that I am not actually travelling to ?

For instance, my idea would be to buy the following (weekly tickets):
Portslade to Epsom (via Croydon), costs £61.80
Balham to London Terminals (via Croydon), costs £23.40

I get a train from Portslade to London Bridge that calls at East Croydon, and the above tickets cover the whole route, but I simply don't use the Croydon to Epsom / Croydon to Balham parts of my tickets.

Many thanks

My recommendation in these circumstances is always that you change at East Croydon. If you travel through East Croydon on the same train, you will only be bringing unnecessary questions onto yourself and bringing the guard's attention to the routeing anomaly, simply because your tickets do not join up, superficially at least.

 

[Romilly]

As DaveNewcastle has explained, IF a weekly Portslade-Epsom ticket is valid via East Croydon, and IF a weekly Balham-London ticket is valid via East Croydon, then that combination of tickets is valid for a Portslade-London journey on a train that stops at East Croydon. So I agree that the further question is whether each of those tickets is valid for journeys via East Croydon, and I share the doubts about whether the Balham-London ticket is valid for via East Croydon.

 

[maniacmartin]

Indeed, NRE is showing that 2 tickets are needed for Balham to London via Croydon. I have edited my post accordingly. Lets see what the Routeing Guide has to say (27th June 2014 edition):

Balham has 3 Routeing Points:
- Clapham Junction - passes fares check (SDS is cheaper) so is appropriate
- Streatham Group - passes fares check (SDS from Streatham Common is same price) so is appropriate
- Mitcham Group - Don't think this is appropriate

The mapped routes from Streatham Group to London are FC
FC only has a route via Clapham Junction into London Group.


Thus I agree that Balham to London Group would not be valid via Croydon, so the split ticket would not be valid

 

[jcside]

I am mystified by this, if a Balham/London Terminals ticket at £23.40 is valid via Croydon(which is 6 miles in the "wrong" direction),why would anyone buy a Croydon/London Terminals weekly which is £40.50?

Apologies if I have misunderstood the point being made.

No you've understood it, and raised a good point - If, as seems to be the case, Croydon is not a valid routing point for Balham - London Bridge, then my plan has been thwarted. I thought it was valid.

 

[bb21]

No you've understood it, and raised a good point - If, as seems to be the case, Croydon is not a valid routing point for Balham - London Bridge, then my plan has been thwarted. I thought it was valid.

It certainly used to be valid iirc but recent (frequent) changes to the Routeing Guide put paid to that.

You may want to challenge these changes with the DfT?

 

[jcside]

Thanks all for your replies, you've answered my question regarding the validity of 'discarding' parts of the journey. It seems that's OK to do, I just chose an invalid route for one part of the journey !

 

[Romilly]

Stranger still, NRE thinks that although Selhurst-East Croydon-London Bridge(-London Charing Cross) is valid on a Selhurst-London ticket, it isn't allowing Selhurst-East Croydon-London Victoria.

 

[bb21]

Stranger still, NRE thinks that although Selhurst-East Croydon-London Bridge(-London Charing Cross) is valid on a Selhurst-London ticket, it isn't allowing Selhurst-East Croydon-London Victoria.

Doubleback through Selhurst presumably.

 

[John @ home]

Doubleback through Selhurst presumably.

No. Selhurst - Victoria via Crystal Palace is also shown as needing more than one ticket.

 

[greatkingrat]

No. Selhurst - Victoria via Crystal Palace is also shown as needing more than one ticket.

That is because it is more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route.

 

[RJ]

I am mystified by this, if a Balham/London Terminals ticket at £23.40 is valid via Croydon(which is 6 miles in the "wrong" direction),why would anyone buy a Croydon/London Terminals weekly which is £40.50?

Apologies if I have misunderstood the point being made.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of tickets like in and around London. I had a season ticket from West Hampstead to somewhere in Zone 2 south of the river and I used it to go to Croydon many times. I found an Anytime Day Single permitting travel between London and Gatwick for around £4 earlier this week, the validity being confirmed by the National Rail Enquiries Journey Planner.

There are some loopholes in the NRE Journey Planner I have found that I can't even justify through the NRG.

Loopholes are being shut, but the promotion of the NRE Journey Planner as the definitive source of routing validity has opened up thousands of them which will probably take quite some time to close. Funny this topic should come up as I recently started analysing the available fares specifically to highlight these fares, among other things!