Future Merseyrail stock: Stadler selected as manufacturer

[dubscottie]

Indeed not - though my view would be that a smaller version of the S-stock would be more suitable.

That will never happen... Derby have products they sell. You can change the livery, fabrics etc but forget changing anything else.

I remember Derby being told to do one when they offered IrishRail the Turbostar..

As above CAF and Japan (and Simiens) are the only ones willing to do bespoke orders.

 

[Townsend Hook]

That will never happen... Derby have products they sell. You can change the livery, fabrics etc but forget changing anything else.

How do you explain the class 172 then? Four subclasses for three operators, all quite different to one another in terms of interior layout, cab design, etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That will never happen... Derby have products they sell. You can change the livery, fabrics etc but forget changing anything else.

The S-stock is not a "product they sell". It's a custom design for LU.

To be fair, an Electrostar derivative might well fit Merseyrail. You could base it on the LO stock.

 

[Domh245]

Equally, the 2009 stock, another product of Derby, is anything but a standard design! It won't fit on any other deep tube line, and it certainly isn't a design nabbed from other metro systems!

 

[WatcherZero]

These are the new timings Merseyrail is aiming for:

Chester - Liverpool Central current 45m target 39m saving 6m
West Kirby - Liverpool Central 34m 29m 5m
Ellesmere Port - Liverpool Central 40m 34m 6m
New Brighton - Liverpool Central 27m 22m 5m
Ormskirk - Liverpool Central 30m 26m 4m
Kirkby - Liverpool Central 18m 16m 2m
Southport – Liverpool Central 46m 40m 6m
Hunts Cross – Liverpool Central 18m 15m 3m


Refurbishment of existing fleet if no replacement stock sought would cost £150m.

Predicted annual growth in patronage 2.5%, predict that new faster air conditioned rolling stock will increase patronage a further 8% over 10 years and that £4.7-5m a year in extra revenue would be directly attributable to more modern rolling stock. New rolling stock will however cost £12m more annually to lease compared to continued use of existing stock. Since the increase in revenue will not cover the increased cost they have to achieve efficiency savings. Savings in maintenance from a younger fleet and lower electricity cost through regenerative braking would be around £2m a year. Both depots owned by NR are obsolete and not fit for purpose in maintaining new stock so £73m of infrastructure investment required which would also include reinforcing the power supply at the extremities of the network, bringing platform height and distances up to Network Rail code. Currently believed Merseytravel will fund 100% of infrastructure works but they are working with NR to see if alternate funding could be identified for platform works and power supply. Rolling stock contract winner would be responsible for upgrading the two depots and installing a new washplant.

£450m 35 year loan would be taken out with the PWLB and the European Infrastructure Bank, loan interest would be £24m per year. Rolling stock would be leased to the concession holder by Merseytravel and loan capital recouped nominally over a straight line 35 year period with formula reflecting some annual variation to costs and maintenance. Current concession holder until 2028 is protected by a no net loss/no net gain clause but they will be able to more aggressively recoup costs from the following concession holder.

While Merseytravel looked to see whether a local supply chain could be prioritised they found there were no local suppliers so the beneficiaries will be outside the city region, possibly outside the UK and potentially even the EU. The rolling stock maintenance does offer more freedom within the limits of EU procurement law to for example prioritise local apprenticeships.

http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.ne...tice for the Procurement of Rolling Stock.pdf

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They will need some agreement from the DfT that the current Special Grant of £87m per year will continue beyond the current concession expiry in 2028.
They will also have to contract out asset management of the fleet.
The table of rolling stock functions has "reduced operating costs" in several places, but does not mention DOO or similar.
50-60m unit length suggest a possibility of even shorter trains than the current ones.
The business case is not linked to any network extensions, beyond saying that Merseyrail stock needs to be fully compliant for the national network.
There is no specific requirement for dual-voltage operation.
I think the technical, financial and process hurdles are still significant.

 

[Bevan Price]

They will need some agreement from the DfT that the current Special Grant of £87m per year will continue beyond the current concession expiry in 2028.
They will also have to contract out asset management of the fleet.
The table of rolling stock functions has "reduced operating costs" in several places, but does not mention DOO or similar.
50-60m unit length suggest a possibility of even shorter trains than the current ones.
The business case is not linked to any network extensions, beyond saying that Merseyrail stock needs to be fully compliant for the national network.
There is no specific requirement for dual-voltage operation.
I think the technical, financial and process hurdles are still significant.

I think you may have misread a bit - it asks for 50+ (number) of 60m trains, not trains of length 50 to 60m.

The suggestion for "more standing room" is unwelcome because it probably means fewer seats - not what passengers want on journeys from Liverpool to Southport or Chester, for example.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its the business case not the ojeu notice so technical things like dual voltage conversion possibility wont neccesarily be mentioned. They seem to think they require and so will seek 50+, extensions arent considered. Looking at the time savings though the amount they would save/increased frequency looks very optimistic. They might save a couple but nothing really ticks over into the magic number territory (e.g create easy clockface timetable where non currently exists by becoming comfortably under an hour and so releasing a whole diagram)

 

[185]

If only: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSR_EMU_(Argentina)
Just £660,000 per car - dual voltage, a/c & reliable too.

 

[WatcherZero]

Part of the problem of the Chinese rail manufacturers CNR and CSR competing against each other for foreign orders selling stock at a loss to keep their factories ticking over between domestic orders and drive each other out of business. Chinese government has cracked down on it by forcing them to merge.

 

[michael74]

Liverpool Echo today announcing Merseyrail approving new stock.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Liverpool Echo today announcing Merseyrail approving new stock.

Note that the report refers to the current operator of Merseyrail as "Merseyrail Electrics"(!)

 

[the sniper]

Note that the report refers to the current operator of Merseyrail as "Merseyrail Electrics"(!)

That's the name of the company that runs the franchise. Like London and Birmingham Railway Ltd, which trades publicly as London Midland.

Unless you're making a different point?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That's the name of the company that runs the franchise. Like London and Birmingham Railway Ltd, which trades publicly as London Midland.

Unless you're making a different point?

I was under the impression that that name was only used by the shadow franchise pre-1995 and subsequently by the initial franchise holder (MTL) prior to them getting into difficulties and being bought out by Arriva. If I was mistaken, apologies!

 

[47802]

That will never happen... Derby have products they sell. You can change the livery, fabrics etc but forget changing anything else.

I remember Derby being told to do one when they offered IrishRail the Turbostar..

As above CAF and Japan (and Simiens) are the only ones willing to do bespoke orders.

I'm sure Bombardier can do customisation if the order is big enough and worth their while at the end of the day the manufacturer needs to make a profit, ok some manufacturers on a small order might choose not to make much of a profit just to keep the production line running others may not, I don't why people keep talking about Electrostars as Bombardier have moved onto Aventra now which appears to be a more flexible and design than Electrostar, and if Merseyrail are wanting the latest design's there would be no point offering Electrostar.

In any case its all fairly pointless speculation at this stage, those manufacturers interested in the contract will bid and then Merseyrail will pick the best bid for them end of.

 

[pemma]

I was under the impression that that name was only used by the shadow franchise pre-1995 and subsequently by the initial franchise holder (MTL) prior to them getting into difficulties and being bought out by Arriva. If I was mistaken, apologies!

They're actually registered under the name Merseyrail Electrics 2002 Limited at Companies House. Merseyrail Electrics Limited was the company MTL acquired and it still belongs to Arriva.

 

[theshillito]

Liverpool Echo today announcing Merseyrail approving new stock.

That looks suspiciously like London Underground's S stock...

 

[swt_passenger]

That looks suspiciously like London Underground's S stock...

The front is nothing like S stock. The doors are nothing like S stock...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It looks like an artist's impression of a fancied-up 508 crossed with the Class 151 prototype and a Desiro

 

[theshillito]

The front is nothing like S stock. The doors are nothing like S stock...

Yep ignore me. I'm remembering the wrong train.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yep ignore me. I'm remembering the wrong train.

No problems. Mind you, artists impressions are rarely any help. Crossrail PR used something that looked nothing at all like a current EMU for many years...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The front is nothing like S stock. The doors are nothing like S stock...

It's very reminiscent of the CAF 332 / 333 design.

 

[dubscottie]

How do you explain the class 172 then? Four subclasses for three operators, all quite different to one another in terms of interior layout, cab design, etc.

Variation on a bodyshell.. Sure change the bits.. but door positions are a no go! And that is why IE told them to go fish and got units from Japan.

The 158 was the last "intercity" body they had..

 

[47802]

Variation on a bodyshell.. Sure change the bits.. but door positions are a no go! And that is why IE told them to go fish and got units from Japan.

The 158 was the last "intercity" body they had..

So it may well have been too expensive for Bombardier to change the door layout on Turbostar/Electrostar. Aventra seems to be more flexible in this respect although whether it will do end doors or not I don't know, in any case that's not relevant to potential Merseyrail Trains.

 

[WatcherZero]

The invitation to tender was published Wednesday, though they've deferred technical and service specifications, also a pretty tight turnaround of just over a month. Winners will then be invited to negotiate, there is also an industry day scheduled for the 12th. Contract broken down in to four blocks

1. Design, manufacture and testing of a new fleet and provision of a simulator.
2. Train availability and reliability agreement (TARA) for maintenance and cleaning services.
3. Maintenance of the existing fleet and in depot servicing and cleaning until the new fleet is in service.
4. Design and construction of depot facilities.

They also apparently desire 60 options on the approx. 50 initial order.

 

[pemma]

The invitation to tender was published Wednesday, though they've deferred technical and service specifications, also a pretty tight turnaround of just over a month. Winners will then be invited to negotiate, there is also an industry day scheduled for the 12th. Contract broken down in to four blocks

1. Design, manufacture and testing of a new fleet and provision of a simulator.
2. Train availability and reliability agreement (TARA) for maintenance and cleaning services.
3. Maintenance of the existing fleet and in depot servicing and cleaning until the new fleet is in service.
4. Design and construction of depot facilities.

They also apparently desire 60 options on the approx. 50 initial order.

Full ITT: http://england.unitedkingdom-tenders.co.uk/91760_Merseytravel_Rolling_Stock_Programme_2015_Liverpool

 

[WatcherZero]

RMT have launched another attack on the rolling stock procurement being DOO calling it pursuing 'private profits' and criticising the operator for banning staff wearing RMT DOO campaign badges.

 

[Camden]

The profit level for any future Merseyrail concession holder is likely to be lower than at present, as it has proved to be for Northern Rail, as a result of shrinking monies from government.

Given Merseyrail's unique funding mechanism, therefore it will firstly be the taxpayer who will benefit from DOO and subsequently the fare payer who may avoid some level of increase that otherwise would have to be imposed in order to provide even the lower level of profit.

I don't know whether RMT's members ever struggle for money, but your day to day passenger heading to their average low wage job might. Fundamentally what the union wants and what Liverpool needs to do are obviously about to clash. A vital piece of infrastructure that supports a city of one and a half million people and which needs to do so cost effectively (both for tax and farepayer) while at the same time needing a set of new trains worth several hundreds of millions of pounds, versus however many guard's jobs (many of who probably won't even be laid off anyway). No contest.

 

[Loop Line]

I wonder why the signs on the stations state the train is 'here' when they are still two or three minutes away. This seems to have become common fairly recently. They also get the three or six car notice wrong occasionally. Are these things entered manually or is there an automated system?

With regards to third rail power, is there a practical speed limit for this method as opposed to overhead lines?

 

[Camden]

I think it's tied up with when they are meant to depart, ie 0 is the time it's meant to pull out and so otherwise it would still show 1 min when the train was in the platform which would be confusing as people would think that means the next train. I've always just thought of it as a little idiosyncrasy, and it has done that for years and years definitely not just recently. I definitely preferred it to the new display they show which is nigh on useless.

Speed limits, no. London third rail lines handle 100mph trains down to the south coast. Speed anyway is never going to be an issue for Merseyrail.