Future of the Blackpool South line

[Cliveblackpool]

Heritage pacers???

I've had a little read back, and one thought, would the cost of conversion be worth it? Well, if you are a family out for a day out then getting the tram @ Kirkham - or even a P+R between there and Lytham (especially if signposted from the motorway) may be a more attractive prospect than a clapped out pacer or sprinter. "Mummy, can we go on the trams....??" So it's a boost to locals and tourists.

I would rather travel on a 142 Pacer any day, than a new shiny Blackpool LRT 'tram'
A Pacer has lots of seats 3+2, Pacers can go 70mph, probably replacement trains will be faster. A suburban service to Preston and beyond is good.
LRT Flexity has only 72 seats - 149 crush loading capacity with standing.
LRT - Promenade running is slow around 10mph. Standing is not good, especially when drivers pulse the power on and off.
Great for residents and businesses in Lyham if it became the terminus - no one else!
Removing Blackpool South and Pleasure Beach stations could affect the viability if the line.
Al that is needed is a dynamic passing loop!

 

[seasidersfan]

I would rather travel on a 142 Pacer any day, than a new shiny Blackpool LRT 'tram'
A Pacer has lots of seats 3+2, Pacers can go 70mph, probably replacement trains will be faster. A suburban service to Preston and beyond is good.
LRT Flexity has only 72 seats - 149 crush loading capacity with standing.
LRT - Promenade running is slow around 10mph. Standing is not good, especially when drivers pulse the power on and off.
Great for residents and businesses in Lyham if it became the terminus - no one else!
Removing Blackpool South and Pleasure Beach stations could affect the viability if the line.
Al that is needed is a dynamic passing loop!

The line is barely viable as it is, that's why there needs to be a big change. Putting in a loop would benefit existing passengers but would not attract any new ones. To do that you need better connectivity and new routes. The most travelled to place from Fylde is Blackpool so it all adds up nicely for a tram/rail interchange on the line.

 

[30907]

The dynamic loop (alongside the golf course, between Ansdell and St Anne's) is efficient, in that it would allow a half hourly service throughout. Terminating the branch at St Anne's is therefore inefficient; terminating at Lytham would lose a significant amount of the longer distance traffic (not much by volume, but compared with half-fare travellers from Preston to Pleasure Beach probably producing more revenue).

I have long been in favour of extending the tramway, but I think it would have to run alongside the NR route (or as a tram-train, maybe?

(I am assuming that there is a limit to the time savings that can be achieved, and that a 40-minute interval service would be operationally inconvenient)

 

[Howardh]

I would rather travel on a 142 Pacer any day, than a new shiny Blackpool LRT 'tram'

I had to read that five times to make sure I'd read it right I'm stil not convinced it was written after 5 pints of Wibbley Wobbley! At least you can go down as the only poster I know that prefers Pacers to trams, if I had to choose between a journey on a Pacer or listening to our Eurovision entry, I think I'd have to choose the

 

[johnnychips]

if I had to choose between a journey on a Pacer or listening to our Eurovision entry, I think I'd have to choose the

Well come on, don't leave us in suspense!

 

[exile]

I would rather travel on a 142 Pacer any day, than a new shiny Blackpool LRT 'tram'
A Pacer has lots of seats 3+2, Pacers can go 70mph

75, but do they go that fast on the Blackpool South line?

 

[Bevan Price]

Originally Posted by Chester1 View Post
This thread is proving that members of this site have a strong tendency to ignore cost and benefit and rank solutions in the following order:

1) Reopen a line that was closed a long time ago

You mean - like the direct Kirkham-Blackpool Central line, which was closed a long time ago and which evidently everyone on this thread is asking to be reopened as a priority?

I think the only part that needs reopening is the final mile or so from Blackpool South to a new station close to the former Blackpool Central site. As noted earlier, apart from "money", restoration of that section would be relatively simple as there are no significant obstructions.

I did not understand any of the other posts to refer to a proposed reopening of the direct (Marton) line, which had no intermediate stations.

Now a question - how much through traffic is there across Preston on these e Blackpool South & Colne services. Or do most of the passengers board / alight at Preston with not much through traffic . That would be understandable, as !all shacks" from Blackpool to Colne in just under 2 hours is not a very attractive option.

Indeed, Lytham & St. Annes probably produced more traffic when they had through services to Manchester - they even had a few peak hour "fastish" commuter services to/from Manchester at one time (plus a few London trains).

 

[Elecman]

Originally Posted by Chester1 View Post
This thread is proving that members of this site have a strong tendency to ignore cost and benefit and rank solutions in the following order:

1) Reopen a line that was closed a long time ago




I think the only part that needs reopening is the final mile or so from Blackpool South to a new station close to the former Blackpool Central site. As noted earlier, apart from "money", restoration of that section would be relatively simple as there are no significant obstructions.

I did not understand any of the other posts to refer to a proposed reopening of the direct (Marton) line, which had no intermediate stations.

Now a question - how much through traffic is there across Preston on these e Blackpool South & Colne services. Or do most of the passengers board / alight at Preston with not much through traffic . That would be understandable, as !all shacks" from Blackpool to Colne in just under 2 hours is not a very attractive option.

Indeed, Lytham & St. Annes probably produced more traffic when they had through services to Manchester - they even had a few peak hour "fastish" commuter services to/from Manchester at one time (plus a few London trains).

There is a very large obstruction, Bloomfield Road, the former bridge has been demolished and the road is now on the same level as the railway would be.

 

[thenorthern]

I think the speed limit for the Blackpool South line is 75 miles per hour with a lower speed on some sections of the line.

An important thing to remember though is it takes a train 23 min to get from Kirkham and Wesham to Blackpool South and then with turn around at Blackpool South it means that when one train enters the branch the other one leaves. With it being a long siding this means its at full capacity.

 

[30907]

Now a question - how much through traffic is there across Preston on these e Blackpool South & Colne services. Or do most of the passengers board / alight at Preston with not much through traffic . That would be understandable, as !all shacks" from Blackpool to Colne in just under 2 hours is not a very attractive option.

At this time of year, it's predominantly off and on at Preston, but in the summer there's a reasonable amount of through traffic - maybe not from Colne, but from Blackburn it's a reasonable option for a trip to the coast. There's almost as much turnover on the York-Blackpool North which is our other option.

 

[Lankyline]

You have to remember that any attempt to "re-site" Blackpool South wouldn't just be met by possible council opposition, but also by the combined forces of the Thompson and Oyston families (for those that don't know who they are read Blackpool pleasure beach and Blackpool FC respectively) BPB especially, as they contributed £31k to the construction of South station.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I had to read that five times to make sure I'd read it right I'm stil not convinced it was written after 5 pints of Wibbley Wobbley! At least you can go down as the only poster I know that prefers Pacers to trams, if I had to choose between a journey on a Pacer or listening to our Eurovision entry, I think I'd have to choose the

Lol!!
My first encounter with a Pacer /Skipper was on the Newquay Branch. Wheel slip and horrendous wheel screech, the worst on the 180 degree curve between St Blazey and Par - all passengers had their hands over their ears!
IMO the slow uncomfortable trundle down the Promenade to Squires gate is that bad, especially standing. Probably sand and salt does not help.

 

[thenorthern]

You have to remember that any attempt to "re-site" Blackpool South wouldn't just be met by possible council opposition, but also by the combined forces of the Thompson and Oyston families (for those that don't know who they are read Blackpool pleasure beach and Blackpool FC respectively) BPB especially, as they contributed £31k to the construction of South station.

Surely you mean Blackpool Pleasure Beach station.

Given its location though it never seems to get large numbers of passengers, I think its the most visited theme park in the United Kingdom. I would expect a large number of the passengers will be the locals rather than tourists as well.

Theme park stations never seem to do well I know Uttoxeter station has never really got use from Alton Towers links.

 

[seasidersfan]

Surely you mean Blackpool Pleasure Beach station.

Given its location though it never seems to get large numbers of passengers, I think its the most visited theme park in the United Kingdom. I would expect a large number of the passengers will be the locals rather than tourists as well.

Theme park stations never seem to do well I know Uttoxeter station has never really got use from Alton Towers links.

Yeah that's another good reason the tram makes sense, it takes you straight to the entrance rather than a 10 minute walk away.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I did not understand any of the other posts to refer to a proposed reopening of the direct (Marton) line, which had no intermediate stations.

I fear you may have missed the irony in my remark

 

[Lampshade]

Theme park stations never seem to do well I know Uttoxeter station has never really got use from Alton Towers links.

Possibly because the service at Uttoxeter is utter garbage, most people I know who go there by train use Stoke-On-Trent, despite it being further away.

In season Staines has loads of people using the 950 bus to Thorpe Park.

 

[deltic08]

You have to remember that any attempt to "re-site" Blackpool South wouldn't just be met by possible council opposition, but also by the combined forces of the Thompson and Oyston families (for those that don't know who they are read Blackpool pleasure beach and Blackpool FC respectively) BPB especially, as they contributed £31k to the construction of South station.

£31k. Was that all. What was the total cost? Obviously Blackpool can be bought cheaply.

We are talking National transport system here. Two families should not be able to stop the will of thousands who would like to see an extension of this route to the site of Central station with through trains to/from other parts of Lancashire. Electrification and dynamic loop would speed up services and make the route more attractive to additional users removing an island of diesel operation at the same time by extending to places on the electrified network. Colne is just an operating convenience not the ideal destination.

This insipid creep of light rail on heavy rail routes should be restrained. Light rail has a limited range as far as through routes are concerned and should only be used to replace bus routes in urban areas and not heavy rail routes.

Leeds City Council/WYCA/local MPs prefer light rail to Wetherby instead of reinstating heavy rail, but the journey time by road running from Cross Gates area into central Leeds will take as long as a heavy rail journey from Wetherby to Leeds station. Light rail could not be extended beyond Wetherby but heavy rail would create another through route to the commuter belt of Wetherby, Harrogate and Ripon.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We are talking National transport system here. Two families should not be able to stop the will of thousands who would like to see an extension of this route to the site of Central station with through trains to/from other parts of Lancashire.

Can you give a more exact figure than just "thousands" and let us have the official statistical returns that show such figures.

 

[deltic08]

deleted duplicate

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This insipid creep of light rail on heavy rail routes should be restrained. Light rail has a limited range as far as through routes are concerned and should only be used to replace bus routes in urban areas and not heavy rail routes.

I suppose the advent of the tram-train, rather than just that of the tram, could meet your objection. This will still have the ability to access areas in town and cities where heavy rail cannot go, which will be to the benefit of the passengers.

 

[deltic08]

Can you give a more exact figure than just "thousands" and let us have the official statistical returns that show such figures.

Can you disprove my assumption with statistics?

What is the combined population of Lytham and St Annes for starters plus anybody living on the line to Colne who doesn't use the train because it terminates too far out of Blackpool.

The decision made to close Central and not Talbot Road was a bad decision by Blackpool Council. It would have concentrated both routes at the same station instead of two sites as now and there would not be any discussion about what to electrify. The direct route and via Lytham would be modern, electrified routes with double track sharing one terminal with straight platforms. How many million visitors have avoided Blackpool since this closure?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can you disprove my assumption with statistics?
What is the combined population of Lytham and St Annes for starters plus anybody living on the line to Colne who doesn't use the train because it terminates too far out of Blackpool.

The decision made to close Central and not Talbot Road was a bad decision by Blackpool Council. It would have concentrated both routes at the same station instead of two sites as now and there would not be any discussion about what to electrify. The direct route and via Lytham would be modern, electrified routes with double track sharing one terminal with straight platforms. How many million visitors have avoided Blackpool since this closure?

Blackpool Central station closed some 53 years ago in 1964 and I think if there had been this supposed demand, would you not have thought that 53 years was a good length of time for the prospective rail users to have been heard on a regular basis during that time period?

How do you see the current bus and tram situation that currently runs from the town centre to the area of Blackpool South railway station. Is this provision so poor that the locals, who I suppose that you include in your stated "thousands", are outraged by the paucity of service provision?

In response to your "missing millions" who have avoided visiting Blackpool as stated in your final sentence, how many of these actually came by car using the M55 and M6, train services to Blackpool North railway station or the coach and bus services to the area?

 

[Chester1]

Whether Blackpool Central should have been closed or not does not determine whether it should be reopened. I think it should not have been closed and instead been downgraded to a branch line terminus. However, it was closed and the trams are a better use of funding than reopening it. Blackpool only needs one main line station and Blackpool North makes most financial sense. All long distance passengers can go to Blackpool North and take the tram to the Pleasure Beach etc. Tram train could resolve many issues but we are not quite there yet. Their best use in Blackpool (and Manchester) would be primarily on heavy rail tracks with sections of on street running to access places that heavy rail cannot. The technology is only proven to work when the tram trains spend most of their time on light rail.

 

[Elecman]

Can you disprove my assumption with statistics?

What is the combined population of Lytham and St Annes for starters plus anybody living on the line to Colne who doesn't use the train because it terminates too far out of Blackpool.

The decision made to close Central and not Talbot Road was a bad decision by Blackpool Council. It would have concentrated both routes at the same station instead of two sites as now and there would not be any discussion about what to electrify. The direct route and via Lytham would be modern, electrified routes with double track sharing one terminal with straight platforms. How many million visitors have avoided Blackpool since this closure?

Blackpool South Direct line platforms were curved as far as I can remember

 

[Lankyline]

£31k. Was that all. What was the total cost? Obviously Blackpool can be bought cheaply.

We are talking National transport system here. Two families should not be able to stop the will of thousands who would like to see an extension of this route to the site of Central station with through trains to/from other parts of Lancashire

Original cost was £51k, broken down as BPBC 31k, British Rail 15k, Lancs CC 10k and last but not least, Blackpool council 2k.

Believe me they exert considerable influence in Blackpool along with the Lofthouse family (Fishermen's Friend)

Take a look at the following quote from the Route Prospectus note over 10 years old now and look at some of the companies involved in the Community Rail Partnership

"The prospectus has been discussed and agreed with the South Fylde Line CRP (which presently consists of Lancashire County Council, Blackpool borough Council, Fylde Borough Council, Blackpool International Airport, Blackpool Transport Services, Blackpool Pleasure Beach, Blackpool Football Club, ReBlackpool, Northern Rail, Network Rail and Blackpool and Fylde Rail users Association.)"

The link to the full 2 page note is here
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/450698/blackpool_south-preston.pdf

 

[Lankyline]

For those after statistics, I offer the following, population of Lytham St Annes (they are combined for the census) at the 2011 census was 42,950

Rail journeys for the 3 stations in the area between 1998 & 2015 were as follows, no info is available for destinations made.

St Annes 126,987 ((1998) - 131,166 (2015)
Ansdell 30,217 - 36,794
Lytham 71,987 - 87,662

In addition and just for info
Moss side 4342 - 2838
Blackpool Pleasure Beach 25,500 - 109,172
Blackpool South 66,589 - 131,434 compare this to (with the obvious differences in size etc)
Blackpool North 1,642,020 - 1,757,542

 

[Andrew1395]

Converting Kirkham & Wesham to Blackpool South to a tramway will mean that national rail will save on the cost of operating the route. Revenue from Through journeys beyond Kirkham will not reduce dramatically, people will travel to Kirkham on the tram to start their rail journey. Look at the example of the St Albans Abbey branch. The scheme collapsed because no one realised that the operators of the tram would not get any of the through ticket revenue. Most revenue on that branch was for journeys beyond Watford Junction, and all revenue for destinations beyond WFJ goes to London Midland. For national rail this looks a good deal. Retaining most of the revenue while saving costs. I don't know the number of local journeys between Blackpool south and Kirkham, but suspect it is not enough to justify conversion to a tramway. It would guess its journeys beyond Kirkham to Preston and onward that justifies retaining the branch as part of the network.

 

[Darren R]

The decision made to close Central and not Talbot Road was a bad decision by Blackpool Council....How many million visitors have avoided Blackpool since this closure?

Are you seriously trying to connect the decline in numbers of visitors to Blackpool with the closure of one mile of railway, thereby forcing them to use Blackpool South or North instead of Central? hock:

 

[Bald Rick]

How many million visitors have avoided Blackpool since this closure?

It would be safe to assume that many more people have come to Blackpool as a result of the closure, as the line was converted into a pretty decent access road, to a big car park. Thus enabling all those people who can't / won't / prefer not to use the train to get to Blackpool more easily.

 

[Bertie the bus]

What is the combined population of Lytham and St Annes for starters plus anybody living on the line to Colne who doesn't use the train because it terminates too far out of Blackpool.

Those living in the larger towns, i.e. Blackburn, Accrington and Burnley could always catch the York - Blackpool North service.