Future of the Blackpool South line

[tbwbear]

Has there ever been a proposal to make an end to end connection with the tramway at Blackpool South - similar to what is now being done at Blackpool North ?

Assuming the tramway could get there - possibly via the back of the tram depot and the exisiting junction with the promenade ?

Trams every 30 minutes to connect with the trains - offer a little bit towards through journeys between Lytham and Blackpool / Fleetwood - but maintain the essense of the St Annes to Preston through service.

 

[MarkyT]

Give it 10 years, if this railway proposal goes ahead instead of the (in my view) far better tram proposal, and that will be "frequent clean zero-emission electric buses paralleling stinking 1990s DMUs running half empty", which poses the risk of closure. Any electric proposal has to be superior to any proposal likely to involve long-term diesel.

I don't think this proposal needs to condemn the branch service to diesel traction forever. It could be a good candidate for battery-augmented emu with a fair distance under the wires and potentially a long layover at Preston if the diagrams were isolated from other services in their own platform, or potential to combine with a stopping service to Manchester via the newly electrified Bolton route. Another alternative would be a dual voltage battery tram-train takeover with a connection near Starr Gate, but to be compatible with the existing tram network that would require low platform provision somehow at all the main line stations served. A better solution I think might be an independant simple tram extension partly via a single track second track of the railway for the last km into St Annes station, where an excellent cross-platform interchange with the South Fylde line might be established, better than the longish walk between Squires and Starr Gates.

 

[A0wen]

I'm not sure this would be worthwhile anyway. It would be better (and cheaper) to upgrade South on the present site, as North is the main station and likely to remain so. It appears to have a large car park directly next to it, so plenty of space to add a second platform and a better building and overall roof.

Why does it need a second platform ? The terminus of a branch has a train in it for as long as it takes before it heads out on the return service ?

Passing loops at intermediate stations I get - particularly where the length / linespeed may mean you need 2 trains for a half-hourly service, but you only ever need one platform at the terminus end.

The Blackpool south branch is only ever going to be a minor branch now in any case - North is the main station and has been for 50 years - there's no practical reason to change that.

 

[Flying Claret]

Does anyone have any thoughts about what the 'potential platform changes at Preston' could be...?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone have any thoughts about what the 'potential platform changes at Preston' could be...?

Platform 1/2 could seriously do with widening, so hopefully that (and slewing the P1 track over to allow for it). It's dangerously narrow when busy. At the very least, get rid of the building with the coffee place in it to make more space.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

If a bi-directional dynamic passing loop is installed between St Annes and Lytham, Ansdell & Fairhaven could have 1 tph in each direction - therefore not requiring any additional platforms.
Blackpool is a very long development along the seafront etc, there is a fair distance between the 2 stations. By bus have to allow at least half an hour to get to BPN. 6 minutes to BPS on foot. Tram takes a little longer.
BPS has loads of parking adjacent to station. BPN has very little.
(IMO the tramway is mainly a tourist railway, and does an excellent job connecting the long seafront (10m) and hundreds of hotels B&B's attractions etc. There are no trams running atm - Covid 19 etc)

 

[Flying Claret]

Platform 1/2 could seriously do with widening, so hopefully that (and slewing the P1 track over to allow for it). It's dangerously narrow when busy. At the very least, get rid of the building with the coffee place in it to make more space.

Yes I'd agree with that, although generally it's the 'top end' (near the bridge) of the platforms that are busy. The far end is pretty much unused. Wondered if they could split them into A&B (well platform 1) to increase usage.

 

[daodao]

My preference would be to convert the line to light rail from Squires Gate to Kirkham, to connect with heavy rail there, with double track where possible as far as Lytham and then alternate trams continuing on single track (with a passing loop) to Kirkham.

 

[47444]

Given the cost of heavy rail signalling and civil engineering, I would have thought that converting the line to full tram operation would be cheaper. It would need to be converted right through to Kirkham to see enough heavy rail cost savings to support the business case.

The main downside would be the need for St Anne's and Lytham through passengers to change at Kirkham, the trade off being a significant improvement in frequency as the tram could easily run three times an hour.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are you sure of that? South is about a mile from the town centre. I doubt that many people would consider a mile to be a reasonable walk to/from the station (especially if they are carrying shopping)

It's half a mile from Preston station to the main shops around the market place, and further from Piccadilly to the shops in Manchester, which are both more likely shopping destinations than Blackpool.

The primary traffic flow on this line is always going to be Preston; anyone heading to Blackpool, other than from the Fylde Coast, would head to North.

The main downside would be the need for St Anne's and Lytham through passengers to change at Kirkham, the trade off being a significant improvement in frequency as the tram could easily run three times an hour.

As the main traffic flow is towards Preston, not Blackpool, that's likely to be a pretty big disadvantage for people from the Fylde Coast. If you have to change at Kirkham, you may as well drive or get the bus.

The Star Gate terminus now offers no decent interchange with the trains

It's less than 1/4 mile from Squires Gate station to the Starr Gate tram stop. Squires Gate is the one station I would spend money on improving, given how useful it is for transferring to the trams and buses.

 

[Ianno87]

I never understood why they built the new tram depot at Star Gate. The site used to be a very popular car park for visitors spending the day in Blackpool. It offered a good interchange with the trams and a relatively quick drive to the motorway. Having built the tram depot the parking is lost and with it I suspect a high proportion of the tram users south of the Pleasure Beach. The Star Gate terminus now offers no decent interchange with the trains, buses (from St. Annes etc.) or motorists. They would have done better building the depot at Fleetwood .
Given where we are today one option that should be considered would be to put a short loop in the tram line and extend this to the front of the Pleasure Beach station, giving a good tram/train interchange. Trains would terminate there and the line to South be abandoned. The tram interchange would offer train passengers a much better range of destinations than the current South which is next to useless.

Starr Gate is better than Fleetwood for a depot as it is closer to the town centre/seafront section rather than stuck at the end of the line.

Plus it is simply readily available land right next to the line.

Should the line ever get extended south of Starr Gate, it would be very central on the network.

 

[Flying Claret]

I never understood why they built the new tram depot at Star Gate. The site used to be a very popular car park for visitors spending the day in Blackpool. It offered a good interchange with the trams and a relatively quick drive to the motorway. Having built the tram depot the parking is lost and with it I suspect a high proportion of the tram users south of the Pleasure Beach. The Star Gate terminus now offers no decent interchange with the trains, buses (from St. Annes etc.) or motorists. They would have done better building the depot at Fleetwood .
Given where we are today one option that should be considered would be to put a short loop in the tram line and extend this to the front of the Pleasure Beach station, giving a good tram/train interchange. Trains would terminate there and the line to South be abandoned. The tram interchange would offer train passengers a much better range of destinations than the current South which is next to useless.

I dont think the area around blackpool south/pleasure beach is lacking in car parking space is it..?

 

[tbwbear]

As the main traffic flow is towards Preston, not Blackpool, that's likely to be a pretty big disadvantage for people from the Fylde Coast. If you have to change at Kirkham, you may as well drive or get the bus.

Exactly - I am old enough to remember having to change at Kirkham and then again at Preston just to get anywhere....

The simple facts are - as it exists now, the line's main purpose is to get everyone "south" of Blackpool South "out of the Fylde".

The secondary purpose could be to get the people of Lytham St Annes to Blackpool or vice versa - Indeed my father used to use the train from St Annes to go and watch Blackpool FC or go dancing at the Tower in the 1950s - but there are perfectly good buses to do that nowadays...

An interchange with the tramway would be excellent - at Blackpool South, Pleasure Beach, Squires Gate or even St Annes, but the main purpose of the line should not be sacrfiiced.

Changing at Kirkham = Never again !!

 

[lancastrian]

I know the area reasonably well as my Grandparents lived at Lytham over looking the line running into the station at Lytham. To be honest I never really understood the drastic singling of the route all the way. As they are talking about a 3 mile loop from Lytham to St. Annes and as the two stations are just under 3 miles apart, it seems that the plan is to at least have two platforms at two of the stations. To me it seem eminently sensible to have the loop all the way from just before Lytham Station, have 2 platforms at all three stations, Lytham, Ansdell and St. Annes and have the option to extend the loop after St. Annes if the extension to Blackpool Central ever happened. This would enable a 2 tph over the whole route.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Exactly - I am old enough to remember having to change at Kirkham and then again at Preston just to get anywhere....

The simple facts are - as it exists now, the line's main purpose is to get everyone "south" of Blackpool South "out of the Fylde".

The secondary purpose could be to get the people of Lytham St Annes to Blackpool or vice versa - Indeed my father used to use the train from St Annes to go and watch Blackpool FC or go dancing at the Tower in the 1950s - but there are perfectly good buses to do that nowadays...

An interchange with the tramway would be excellent - at Blackpool South, Pleasure Beach, Squires Gate or even St Annes, but the main purpose of the line should not be sacrfiiced.

Changing at Kirkham = Never again !!

Have to agree

Going to work - also Manchester is in the 'search for a job area!'
Have also used service to St Annes - £2,30 return with railcard is half the price of a bus, and faster.

 

[Grumpy]

It's less than 1/4 mile from Squires Gate station to the Starr Gate tram stop. Squires Gate is the one station I would spend money on improving, given how useful it is for transferring to the trams and buses.

True. However what I said was decent interchange. By this I meant the ability to nip off the train then nip on an almost adjacent tram. Changing at Squires gate involves climbing steps then a quarter mile walk including crossing busy roads. Not appealing if you've got luggage/pushchair or are elderly/disabled.

 

[Grumpy]

Starr Gate is better than Fleetwood for a depot as it is closer to the town centre/seafront section rather than stuck at the end of the line.

Plus it is simply readily available land right next to the line.

Should the line ever get extended south of Starr Gate, it would be very central on the network.

Surely Starr Gate is at the end of the line?

 

[Bald Rick]

A three-mile passing loop would probably put any hopes of part-converting the line to tram operation to rest. That'd be a shame in some respects, but it certainly looks like Network Rail are considering doing a 'proper' job of it with changes at Preston etc.

I’m not sure Network Rail has anything to do with it at present, other than advising what might need to e done to the promoter.. But it does show that the thought has been applied.

There's no need to extend to Central, South is fine for the town centre (such as it is) and the shopping/commuter traffic will mostly be towards Preston anyway.

It's really Lytham St Anne's that needs the extra service, but if you're running it there you may as well go through to Blackpool.

Agreed. That lcorridor has three broad public transport flows: bucket and spade / drinkers inbound to the pleasure beach area (rail) Lytham / St Anne’s outward to Preston and beyond (rail), Lytham / St Annes to Blackpool for shopping - mostly pensioners who get it for free on the bus.

Blackpool ‘Town’ to Preston and beyond traffic is all accommodated by the North branch.

There’s no need to spend another £50m+ getting the line through to Central.

Give it 10 years, if this railway proposal goes ahead instead of the (in my view) far better tram proposal, and that will be "frequent clean zero-emission electric buses paralleling stinking 1990s DMUs running half empty", which poses the risk of closure. Any electric proposal has to be superior to any proposal likely to involve long-term diesel.

Completely agree.

Fantastic restaurants and shops----------------------in blackpool???!

Lytham perhaps!

 

[DJ_K666]

Surely Starr Gate is at the end of the line?

It's a loop at the end of the Blackpool Municipal Tramway, there was a separate (Lytham Corporation) tramway that ran along the coast from there to Saltcotes with a kick inland near Ansdell although the stop was still a good few minutes walk from the station as it used Cambridge Street. As far as a second platform at South goes there is space for one as there is a large bit of green with advertising hoardings on it, plus a large number of chevrons in the car park as well on that side. This is the old track bed from when there were two platforms even when the other two were taken out. I believe these served a Kirkham direct chord which is now the Yeadon Way and found some way of avoiding the M55. Reopening that would be difficult even in a top-down constructed cut and cover slurry-walled tunnel under the road. If they want a (reliable) half hour service a passing loop at either Ansdell or St Annes plus a second platform at South might both probably be necessary, or a loop plus permissive working into South in the event of a breakdown, as what is there at the moment is just a siding with seven platforms on it.

As an aside, there was a third tramway section, a line known as the Marton route between Talbot Square and Central station via Church Street, Devonshire Square, Whitegate Drive, Waterloo Road and Central Drive. They found the rails still intact buried under the modern road surface in recent years.

Old pic of Blackpool South. (Copyright photo so I'm not hotlinking it

 

[Lytham Local]

Reading the comments - it's a great debate, I thought I'd add in my $0.02 worth.

Firstly is the possible conversion or sharing with the trams. A lot of noise has been made with the "Trams to Lytham" group and they have carried out their own study - all be it somewhat biased in favour of light rail - into bringing trams into Lytham. Building costs, target market, usage, competition from bus operators and ongoing costs of ownership are just prohibitive factors in having a light rail system from Lytham to Blackpool. Extending it the 6 miles from Lytham to Kirkham would be throwing money down the drain as beyond the east end of Lytham, there isn't anyone living there that would require a light rail system (otherwise Wrea Green station would have re-opened before now). The thought of having to change at Kirkham to get to Preston would put a lot of people off and having to purchase a tram ticket followed by a train ticket would probably increase the fare substantually (that's me speculating however).

Going the other way, changing from the SF line to trams requires a short walk from either Squires Gate or Pleasure Beach to the tramway. If there was money to burn then build a spur from the existing tram line to Pleasure Beach along Burlington Road which would give an easy way to get to Blackpool. You would be quicker to take the bus however.

There's plans (or there were) to completely revamp the Central site - https://www.blackpool.gov.uk/Your-C...pool/Blackpool-Central/Blackpool-Central.aspx - Covid might have scuppered those plans though. Can't see the council wanting to give up revenue generation car park spaces, so any extension beyond that wouldn't happen.

Times wise, taking the timings of RTT, 2 TPH could be accommodated:-

Kirkham 0
Moss Side 6
Lytham 10
Ansdell 13
St Annes 17
Squires Gate 20
Pleasure Beach 23
Blackpool South 25

Kirkham 30
Moss Side 36
Lytham 40
Ansdell 43
St Annes 47
Squires Gate 50
Pleasure Beach 53
Blackpool South 55

Blackpool South 0
Pleasure Beach 2
Squires Gate 4
St Annes 8
Ansdell 11
Lytham 14
Moss Side 19
Kirkham 25

Blackpool South 30
Pleasure Beach 32
Squires Gate 34
St Annes 38
Ansdell 41
Lytham 44
Moss Side 49
Kirkham 55

Which would put the passing loop in between Lytham and Ansdell. Would you need an additional platform at Ansdell or the 3 miles of double track as mentioned in the report? Possibly overkill and would make the project unaffordable.

Rolling stock I don't think is an issue. Taking the existing services (Blackpool South to Colne / Ormskirk) then you have only 8 miles under the wires between Kirkham and Preston. If you ran services to say Manchester or Liverpool, then using the class 769 once available would be a possibilty, but that's getting very speculatitive.

Will anything happen though? Sadly I think this thread will still be going in 2030.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe these served a Kirkham direct chord which is now the Yeadon Way and found some way of avoiding the M55. Reopening that would be difficult even in a top-down constructed cut and cover slurry-walled tunnel under the road. If they want a (reliable) half hour service a passing loop at either Ansdell or St Annes plus a second platform at South might both probably be necessary, or a loop plus permissive working into South in the event of a breakdown, as what is there at the moment is just a siding with seven platforms on it.

Yeadon Way and a bit of the M55 follow the route of the original direct line from Kirkham to Blackpool Central via Blackpool South. This was essentially about getting as many holidaymakers to Blackpool as possible and didn't have any other intermediate stations, whereas the remaining line to South was always more about serving the Lytham area than Blackpool. There was a big flying junction west of Kirkham where the line from Preston (originally four tracks) split into three, the remains of which could still be seen last time I went that way.

With the decline in holiday traffic it was obvious Blackpool didn't need three routes and two large stations, but I don't believe the southernmost one was ever seriously considered for closure because of its intermediate traffic. I seem to recall reading on the forum somewhere that BR wanted to close the northern route via Poulton, which seems a little odd to me as freight to Fleetwood would still have been considered important at the time, but the council preferred to close the middle route probably with the road scheme in mind as was later built. There is zero prospect of that route being reopoened.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regarding parking at Central, a single-platform station wouldn't take up more than a couple of rows of spaces, and they could double-deck if necessary. But I don't think it's needed, if you want the centre of Blackpool you use North. That the staff there are a bit funny isn't a reason to build a whole new station

 

[DJ_K666]

Regarding parking at Central, a single-platform station wouldn't take up more than a couple of rows of spaces, and they could double-deck if necessary. But I don't think it's needed, if you want the centre of Blackpool you use North. That the staff there are a bit funny isn't a reason to build a whole new station

Aren't they all a bit funny in Blackpool (Partiicularly guest house landladies?) [/joke]

I do think passive provision for that would be a good idea though, double decking the car park with that strange metal decking might help. Put the loop in at St. Annes, then if the second platform is needed subsequently you have the space thats been protected and you'd go back to the island terminus that was there previously. I recently found out though the M55 actually includes the oldest bit of motorway in the UK. I think it's all about making sure people in the southern suburbs can get in and out of town easily.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Regarding parking at Central, a single-platform station wouldn't take up more than a couple of rows of spaces, and they could double-deck if necessary. But I don't think it's needed, if you want the centre of Blackpool you use North. That the staff there are a bit funny isn't a reason to build a whole new station

Unless you live anywhere along the Blackpool South line .

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The simple facts are - as it exists now, the line's main purpose is to get everyone "south" of Blackpool South "out of the Fylde".

The secondary purpose could be to get the people of Lytham St Annes to Blackpool or vice versa - Indeed my father used to use the train from St Annes to go and watch Blackpool FC or go dancing at the Tower in the 1950s - but there are perfectly good buses to do that nowadays...

Perfectly good buses? I just checked the timetables. Looks like the 11 takes 50 minutes to get from Lytham to Blackpool (7 miles), or 30 minutes from St. Anne's to Blackpool (5 miles). It you make the reasonable assumption that it would take the train 3 minutes to get from Blackpool South to a new Blackpool Central station, those times would become 18 minutes and 11 minutes by train.

Obviously, the line's main flow *now* is people heading towards Preston, but that's only because, with only an hourly service that dumps people a mile from the centre of Blackpool, it's all but useless for local people heading for Blackpool (unless you want the Pleasure Beach area).

 

[DJ_K666]

Perfectly good buses? I just checked the timetables. Looks like the 11 takes 50 minutes to get from Lytham to Blackpool (7 miles), or 30 minutes from St. Anne's to Blackpool (5 miles). It you make the reasonable assumption that it would take the train 3 minutes to get from Blackpool South to a new Blackpool Central station, those times would become 18 minutes and 11 minutes by train.

Obviously, the line's main flow *now* is people heading towards Preston, but that's only because, with only an hourly service that dumps people a mile from the centre of Blackpool, it's all but useless for local people heading for Blackpool (unless you want the Pleasure Beach area).

Believe me nobody thinks of buses and 'Perfectly good' in the same sentence. Even the most modern all singing all dancing Wifi and leather seated air conditioned vehicles are adequate at best. In fact, as a bus driver I prefer not to spend my days off on buses. Ultimately they are still subject to speed limits along the roads, although 20 mph is fins since they stop every hundred yards or so, If someone blows chunks (rare, I'll grant you) you cannot move away easily. Plus, (I'm not sure how it is in Blackpool)outside the towns they are rarely direct. Ours go from A to B via C, D, F, G, H , M, N , R and Z Our Rugby to Coventry run by bus takes an hour, but on the train it's 10 minutes.

Any line to Lytham would probably get a lot of traffic from St Annes and is likely to stay near the coast where there is room for it, maybe with the odd spur to serve busy areas here and there. It means it would be kept simple and direct without all the ball ache of doing the massive amount of paperwork to convert the railway line to take tram-trains (I tend to draw the line at writing my name, paperwork wise btw. Anything more is too much damn buraucracy).

A subtle re-jigging of everything between South and Central, like double decking the car parks to allow a strip of land wide enough would free up enough room for the line to re-enter Central and have, say, a 2 platform island. and a small-ish station building with a booking office and waiting room, toilet facilities, even a coffee/newspaper stand. Pushing the boat out there for modern stations, I know.

 

[Bald Rick]

Unless you live anywhere along the Blackpool South line .

In which case you get the bus (because it’s free for the majority of residents of the area with no access to a car), or you drive, because that’s what you do up there. An improved train service might reduce the latter, a little, but not much. The people up in Lytham St Annes that I know would never, ever consider using the train, even if it was free and ran every 5 minutes.

 

[edwin_m]

The walk between the train and the tram is actually slightly shorter at Pleasure Beach than at Squires Gate/Starr Gate with no steps as far as I remember. A tram-train connection here has been thought about at least once. The tram line on the Promenade is reasonably close to the town centre, although the wrong side of the main road.

 

[tbwbear]

Perfectly good buses? I just checked the timetables. Looks like the 11 takes 50 minutes to get from Lytham to Blackpool (7 miles), or 30 minutes from St. Anne's to Blackpool (5 miles). It you make the reasonable assumption that it would take the train 3 minutes to get from Blackpool South to a new Blackpool Central station, those times would become 18 minutes and 11 minutes by train.

Obviously, the line's main flow *now* is people heading towards Preston, but that's only because, with only an hourly service that dumps people a mile from the centre of Blackpool, it's all but useless for local people heading for Blackpool (unless you want the Pleasure Beach area).

I think the comparison of bus / rail times is a little more complicated.

The station to station times are only really valid for the population within reasonable walking distance of each station. There are probably far more residents of Lytham St Annes within walking distance of a bus stop on one of the bus routes to Blackpool than within any of the three stations.


In the personal example I quoted; my father used to live two bus stops (No. 11) away from St Annes Station – he would happily walk to the station and catch the train to Central. I grew living up five or six bus stops away (No.11) from St Annes (closer to Ansdell) and even had the train still been running then it wouldn’t have made much sense to get it to central Blackpool. I speak as someone who would much prefer train over bus too.



My main point was/ is the market from Lytham St Annes to Blackpool should always be regarded as secondary. If a way can be found to extend to/past Central or extend the South Fylde branch into the tramway, all well and good, but if the cost of that is that people from Squires Gate, St Annes, Ansdell and/or Lytham have to change to get beyond Kirkham, that is not acceptable.

I grew up in the 1970s in a family that mourned the loss of Blackpool Central more than some dead relatives, so I get it. My mother couldn’t go past the site of Central without mentioning how sad it was.

But I also grew up having to change at Kirkham to get anywhere out of the Fylde. I still can’t go past Kirkham without thinking how great it is not having to change there.


PS – Genuine Question = How is it with Poulton to Blackpool North - Does anyone use the bus / must be a lot faster on the train? What is the mix at Poulton between people heading into Blackpool or going in the other direction ?

 

[DJ_K666]

In which case you get the bus (because it’s free for the majority of residents of the area with no access to a car), or you drive, because that’s what you do up there. An improved train service might reduce the latter, a little, but not much. The people up in Lytham St Annes that I know would never, ever consider using the train, even if it was free and ran every 5 minutes.

Probably because a Pacer is a bus. Kind of lol