Future of the Class 60 locos at Toton?

[SpacePhoenix]

I am under the impression that the reason why Colas ordered more Class 70's for delivery in 2017 is because at the time the order was placed. The recently announced second wave of surplus Class 60's wasn't available. So that is my thinking there.

Secondly. Isn't freight by rail increasing? So if that is correct, that would warrant more locomotives to be sourced as I understand that Colas is one of the FTOC's that is growing and perhaps that they would require more locomotives for the new contracts. So I shall make a prediction of the likelyhood of the future for the Class 60's that are up for disposal.

60003 - Reuse Possible
60004 - Scrap
60005 - Reuse Possible/Scrap
60006 - Scrap (Reason Fire Damage)
60008 - Scrap (Reason Turbo Explosion)
60013 - Scrap/Reuse Possible
60014 - Scrap
60018 - Reuse Possible
60022 - Scrap
60023 - Scrap (Unknown Failure)
60025 - Reuse Possible
60027 - Scrap
60030 - Scrap
60031 - Reuse Possible
60032 - Scrap
60037 - Scrap
60042 - Scrap
60050 - Reuse Possible/Scrap
60051 - Reuse Possible
60052 - Reuse Possible

Of course anything can happen but this is just a mere assumption taking into account the length of the time stored in the open elements to the type of failure the locomotive has sustained.

In regards to GB Railfreight. Them owning a few cheap secondhand heavy haul locomotives like a handful of Tugs could open the doors the heavy haul freight and some members then could be replaced by new gen locomotives. If FHH took some, a few 66/6 could pass to GB Railfreight as to standardise their fleets and also FHH could use the newly aquired Class 60's on the Iron Ore scrap trains that blast through Barnetby on most days using a lower fuel consumption locomotive like the Class 60 as the Mirrlees units are very economical fuel savers. Of course this is just a thought of what might happen and not based on any facts at all .

My gut feeling is that all the locos on that list will eventually be scrapped. How many parts are still manufactured. It'll come down to cost, the cost of bringing them back to a working standard vs the cost of a new build of an equivalent (or as many needed) locos

 

[ExRes]

I am under the impression that the reason why Colas ordered more Class 70's for delivery in 2017 is because at the time the order was placed. The recently announced second wave of surplus Class 60's wasn't available. So that is my thinking there.

Secondly. Isn't freight by rail increasing? So if that is correct, that would warrant more locomotives to be sourced as I understand that Colas is one of the FTOC's that is growing and perhaps that they would require more locomotives for the new contracts. So I shall make a prediction of the likelyhood of the future for the Class 60's that are up for disposal.

60003 - Reuse Possible
60004 - Scrap
60005 - Reuse Possible/Scrap
60006 - Scrap (Reason Fire Damage)
60008 - Scrap (Reason Turbo Explosion)
60013 - Scrap/Reuse Possible
60014 - Scrap
60018 - Reuse Possible
60022 - Scrap
60023 - Scrap (Unknown Failure)
60025 - Reuse Possible
60027 - Scrap
60030 - Scrap
60031 - Reuse Possible
60032 - Scrap
60037 - Scrap
60042 - Scrap
60050 - Reuse Possible/Scrap
60051 - Reuse Possible
60052 - Reuse Possible

Of course anything can happen but this is just a mere assumption taking into account the length of the time stored in the open elements to the type of failure the locomotive has sustained.

In regards to GB Railfreight. Them owning a few cheap secondhand heavy haul locomotives like a handful of Tugs could open the doors the heavy haul freight and some members then could be replaced by new gen locomotives. If FHH took some, a few 66/6 could pass to GB Railfreight as to standardise their fleets and also FHH could use the newly aquired Class 60's on the Iron Ore scrap trains that blast through Barnetby on most days using a lower fuel consumption locomotive like the Class 60 as the Mirrlees units are very economical fuel savers. Of course this is just a thought of what might happen and not based on any facts at all .

Sorry but I really don't understand where you're coming from

The 'recently announced second wave of surplus Class 60s', if you recall at the time of Colas taking their 60s there were 20 available, not just 10, Colas bought 10 because, I would assume, the work wasn't available to support investing in 20

Why did Colas order 7 more 70s when 60s were obviously available?, either DBS stopped their sale or Colas realised the 70s were far better an investment

You can't just move locos round like chess pieces, if GBRf or FHH had no interest in 60s you can't make them take the locos on, why would they wan't tiny little batches of locos that they would have to train maintenance staff and drivers on when they could simply keep what they have at no extra cost?

Most of all I was under the firm impression that freight by rail was decreasing not increasing and, for example, if HS2 was to be cancelled there would be a wholesale withdrawl of locos and the loss of many railfreight jobs, I would be delighted to hear where work is coming in to replace all the lost steel and coal work

 

[CosherB]

What a bonkers thread this is turning into.

There is little to no demand for further heavy haul traction in the UK at present. If their was, DBC would be in prime position to resurrect their Super 60 programme to get more 60s back onto the mainline - only once all of their 66s were fully deployed. This hasn't happened and is now highly unlikely.

DRS will have their hands full keeping 35 68s and 10 88s meaningfully occupied.

Colas 'did the dirty' on DBC by pinching some of their business when they acquired their 10 Super 60'd locos. DBC were understandably miffed and were less than interested in letting Colas have another 10. Makes you wonder why DBC let them have their 60's in the first place - this was inevitable!

GBRf - can't see any 60s here as they are essentially powered by 66s, with a few 92s and 73s.

I very much doubt that Freightliner need any additional traction with 66s and 70s currently parked up. As for the side issue regarding the Porterbrook 90s at AGA, would Freightliner want to replace their 86/6s with them? They're over 50 years old and surely can't keep on going? It would also standardise the Freightliner electric fleet.

DCR - bit player. No chance.

Favourite customer ? http://www.cfbooth.com/

 

[BR60062]

Well Booth's it is then and good riddence! . That aside, DBC/Colas should strip them of all usable spares and that is the end of the matter. As they are probably worth more in scrap metal anyway .

 

[Harbornite]

Most of all I was under the firm impression that freight by rail was decreasing not increasing and, for example, if HS2 was to be cancelled there would be a wholesale withdrawl of locos and the loss of many railfreight jobs, I would be delighted to hear where work is coming in to replace all the lost steel and coal work

Somehow I doubt this. Intermodal and aggregates will slowly replace coal and steel, providing that the economy doesn't tank.

 

[BR60062]

I am certain that I have said this before either here or on another forum. Coal fired power stations still have a future in a greener climate if they can bothered to fit CRT traps to them as they are pretty good at trapping the toxic particles and the air would be cleaner. Also we have a healthy coal supply from my memory. So why not use it? Investment in things like nuclear power stations and other fuels is beyond me and is even more wasteful than rebuilding the Class 60's and fitting CRT particle filters to existing coal power stations as its just not necessary in my opinion. It would also cut energy bills for households in the process as well :roll:.

 

[richieb1971]

I am certain that I have said this before either here or on another forum. Coal fired power stations still have a future in a greener climate if they can bothered to fit CRT traps to them as they are pretty good at trapping the toxic particles and the air would be cleaner. Also we have a healthy coal supply from my memory. So why not use it? Investment in things like nuclear power stations and other fuels is beyond me and is even more wasteful than rebuilding the Class 60's and fitting CRT particle filters to existing coal power stations as its just not necessary in my opinion. It would also cut energy bills for households in the process as well :roll:.

When you get to the nitty gritty its all about money. DBC have the choice of revamping the fleet and having a more photogenic depot at Toton, perhaps even making a few drivers happier having a nicer cab and ride. But at the cost of being monetarily expensive and monetary assets sitting idle starting the rotting process again. Having more 60's working at DBC means being able to rotate more loco's more of the time.

I'm not very knowledgeable about the process of acquiring "new" business for the railways. Perhaps it will take government intervention to encourage more hauliers to change to rail, or get more big projects going that will allow any new super 60's to get back to work. I would like to see at least 5-10 new 60 examples on the rails before the rest get torched. After all it does seem it is the governments fault of letting the whole fleet sit with one FOC that has caused most of this. It is definitely easier for 5 or 6 FOC's to find new business than it is for only one of them. I think its fair to say that is solid logic there.

 

[Topgun333]

I am certain that I have said this before either here or on another forum. Coal fired power stations still have a future in a greener climate if they can bothered to fit CRT traps to them as they are pretty good at trapping the toxic particles and the air would be cleaner. Also we have a healthy coal supply from my memory. So why not use it? Investment in things like nuclear power stations and other fuels is beyond me and is even more wasteful than rebuilding the Class 60's and fitting CRT particle filters to existing coal power stations as its just not necessary in my opinion. It would also cut energy bills for households in the process as well :roll:.

CRT traps don't capture CO2 so no future for coal fired power stations without carbon capture and storage.

 

[Y961 XBU]

BR60062 am just wondering what information your using to work out what 60s are worth bringing back and what examples are past it?

 

[Harbornite]

Thought I'd share this image of the line at Toton, taken during happier(?) times in 2013 by Jamie Squibbs. As one can see, the conditions of some of these locomotives leaves something to be desired.

www.jamiesquibbs.com/february-2013.html

 

[richieb1971]

Thought I'd share this image of the line at Toton, taken during happier(?) times in 2013 by Jamie Squibbs. As one can see, the conditions of some of these locomotives leaves something to be desired.

I'd love to see some of the odd livery ones get resurrected.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Was 60099 the very last class 60 built?

 

[DarloRich]

I'd love to see some of the odd livery ones get resurrected.

The green one wont be any time soon - it "put a leg out of bed" aka having a piston break through the engine block which tends to be fairly terminal for the engine!

I am sure an engineer can explain it better!

Well Booth's it is then and good riddence! . That aside, DBC/Colas should strip them of all usable spares and that is the end of the matter. As they are probably worth more in scrap metal anyway .

see post #14

BR60062 am just wondering what information your using to work out what 60s are worth bringing back and what examples are past it?

opinion
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not very knowledgeable about the process of acquiring "new" business for the railways. Perhaps it will take government intervention to encourage more hauliers to change to rail, or get more big projects going that will allow any new super 60's to get back to work. I would like to see at least 5-10 new 60 examples on the rails before the rest get torched. After all it does seem it is the governments fault of letting the whole fleet sit with one FOC that has caused most of this. It is definitely easier for 5 or 6 FOC's to find new business than it is for only one of them. I think its fair to say that is solid logic there.

I am not entirely sure there is.................

Guess how much the government care. That's right - not a jot. How is it easier for 5 or 6 FOC's to find work? Can you explain that?

 

[sprinterguy]

Was 60099 the very last class 60 built?

No, 60100 was, hence it's historical significance in being designated for the National Collection by the Railway Heritage Committee (now RHDAB) as the last British built mainline diesel locomotive.

 

[43096]

What a bonkers thread this is turning into.

This thread? It's whole forums (not just this one) where trainspotters come up with increasingly daft ideas that have no business case whatsoever. It's a good thing the people coming up with this stuff are not actually running the companies! We can add Class 60 to Class 442 and Class 321 for the favourite topics for this...

 

[Rail Blues]

This thread? It's whole forums (not just this one) where trainspotters come up with increasingly daft ideas that have no business case whatsoever. It's a good thing the people coming up with this stuff are not actually running the companies! We can add Class 60 to Class 442 and Class 321 for the favourite topics for this...

Ain't that the truth. There's a bunch of people who seem to think that the railway network exists as a giant trainset set up for them to admire their favourite units, rather than an essential and utlilitarian means of shifting people and freight.

I think my favourite suggestion was (in all seriousness) for a whole bunch of class 33s to be brought from preservation and used to propel refitted 442s on a luxury train service. The poster even berated the TOCs for having 'no imagination' for failing to implement this idea. I mean there's imagination and then there's being so open-minded that your brain drops out.

 

[D365]

We can add Class 60 to Class 442 and Class 321 for the favourite topics for this...

I thought that Class 185 had become flavour of the day!

 

[Cowley]

Ain't that the truth. There's a bunch of people who seem to think that the railway network exists as a giant trainset set up for them to admire their favourite units, rather than an essential and utlilitarian means of shifting people and freight.

Oh. Is that not what it's for then? I always wondered why they kept getting rid of all my favourite trains.
I'm going to have to have a long hard look at my life.

 

[BR60062]

BR60062 am just wondering what information your using to work out what 60s are worth bringing back and what examples are past it?

Tug Tracker had a nice useful database before the website closed down . Also I am passing views from observations with my own eye and time duration in the open elements and the amount, So its a mix of my estimations and the facts that were provided by Tug Tracker .

Was 60099 the very last class 60 built?

The last Class 60 to be built mate was 60100 .

Class 60, DB Schenker 60100 by BritishRail60062, on Flickr

I got that beauty at Barnetby two weeks ago . Also that one is destined for the NRM when it retires from what I hear if its true and it wouldn't surprise me as it was the very last British built locomotive that entered service in 1994 . I am surprised that 60100 wasn't named as "Evening Star" because of its status really.

 

[D365]

Also that one is destined for the NRM when it retires from what I hear if its true and it wouldn't surprise me as it was the very last British built locomotive that entered service in 1994.

The last British-built mainline diesel it was indeed, but Brush continued building the Class 92 and the Eurotunnel "Class 9" fleets for a while after.

I am surprised that 60100 wasn't named as "Evening Star" because of its status really.

We've got enough locomotives bearing that name as it is.

 

[CosherB]

Also I am passing views from observations with my own eye and time duration in the open elements and the amount, So its a mix of my estimations and the facts that were provided by Tug Tracker

Are you using Google Translate?

Perhaps you could tie-up with these folks ....

http://www.c60pg.co.uk/home/4585015101

 

[BR60062]

are you using google translate?

Perhaps you could tie-up with these folks ....

http://www.c60pg.co.uk/home/4585015101

いいえ英語が母国語であるため。 しかし、提案とにかく男をありがとう。 .

 

[richieb1971]

Ain't that the truth. There's a bunch of people who seem to think that the railway network exists as a giant trainset set up for them to admire their favourite units, rather than an essential and utlilitarian means of shifting people and freight.

The class 60 was premiered as Britains most expensive and technological Diesel locomotive ever built. For most of the class to be exhibited as some kind of graveyard is very demoralizing for some. If you look at the locos as purely assets then nobody should care whether they are left to rot or not, but some folks look at them like a dying animal.

And when you add politics to the matter, EWS acquired these locos with no intention to use them. If that was public knowledge to the government at the time I doubt John Major would have let them have them to rot.

 

[Y961 XBU]

Does anyone know if the Seaforth - Tinsley move is now 60 operated? Managed 60100 on there this afternoon

 

[Harbornite]

If you look at the locos as purely assets then nobody should care whether they are left to rot or not, but some folks look at them like a dying animal.

Sorry to **** on your bonfire but that is all they are: machines, vehicles, assets. They are not dying animals because they aren't sentient, they were built as tools for railfreight and were not intended to be treated as animals by trainspotters. It is undoubtedly a shame that these once-capable locomotives have been left to rot (like the 58s) but you have to view these things from an economic point of view. The railways are there to make profit, not to be a trainset for spotters.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The class 60 was premiered as Britains most expensive and technological Diesel locomotive ever built. For most of the class to be exhibited as some kind of graveyard is very demoralizing for some. If you look at the locos as purely assets then nobody should care whether they are left to rot or not, but some folks look at them like a dying animal.

And when you add politics to the matter, EWS acquired these locos with no intention to use them. If that was public knowledge to the government at the time I doubt John Major would have let them have them to rot.

I doubt John Major cared. All they were after were payments into the exchequer.

 

[BR60062]

The railways should have never been privatised. To put it like this as this is not the place for politics. Its very rare that politicians work in the interest of the people that vote them in as its just a job with pay to them. Nothing more .

 

[Whistler40145]

I can't see much happening to the long line of withdrawn Class 60s at Toton.

Unless the likes of Colas wave money under the noses of DB Cargo and they purchase the majority of the them, then I don't see how they'll ever turn a wheel again.

What does surprise me is that none have been scrapped.

 

[BR60062]

I'm surprised that the real badly damaged Class 60's like 60006 and 60081 haven't been scrapped as surely taking the time to invest money into rebuilding those would be more than its viable financially. Unless they know something that we don't! .

 

[Harbornite]

The railways should have never been privatised. To put it like this as this is not the place for politics. Its very rare that politicians work in the interest of the people that vote them in as its just a job with pay to them. Nothing more .

You say that but if the railways hadn't been privatized, you couldn't say that the 60s would survive for ever.