GC Valenta's - MTU'ING IS COMMENCING

[43034 The Black Horse]

And the 254s

 

[37401]

mmm tasty, I agree though, lets not have one of those

 

[Techniquest]

I just had a thought too - isn't the NR flying banana still powered by a Valenta? You'll hear that one around for a while.

Nope, been all-MTU on that one for some time now.

Memories are indeed precious. Got a lot of photos and videos of so many good times had on my travels, Memory Lane is a well-trodden path for me

Scott's can of worms has been welded shut too

 

[TGV]

Ahhh OK. Worth a try - I was trying to be optimistic for y'all!

I'm not too clued up on what diesel is doing what you see.... I prefer my trains to spark (overhead!)

 

[yorkie]

Fair enough if a TOC wants to make a few quid from enthusiasts, I just can't get excited and pretend its the "end of an era"

It is the end of an era and if you can't see that, then that's a matter for you, and your opinion only.

For me, it's about losing something I grew up with. Memories of going to York to see the NRM, waiting at the station to meet my dad or visiting my relatives in London. All with HSTs running everywhere. When I got sent to school, the HST took me home at the end of term. When I went to Aberdeen University, I would go to the station every Wednesday for the 14:55 HST departure, the train that stopped at Stevenage. My sight's not brilliant, so that noise meant everything. That's what it's really about, a little bit of my childhood is about to die, and I want to see it off.

Well said. For me it was memories of going on holiday to the West Country, having relatives in Devon and Cornwall. Without the noise, it's not the same.

I'm sure a steam enthusiast would not think it the same if you replaced the engine in a steam loco with something that sounded like a truck!

 

[TGV]

It is the end of an era and if you can't see that, then that's a matter for you, and your opinion only.

That's a bit harsh. He did say "*I* just can't get excited..." alluding that it is indeed his own opinion - but that's the whole point in forums - opinions?

 

[tbtc]

It is the end of an era and if you can't see that, then that's a matter for you, and your opinion only

Apologies for stating an opinion

 

[yorkie]

That's a poor excuse for hijacking a thread where it is pretty obvious that some people do care, and to give reasons why people shouldn't care.

The sarcastic "apologies for stating an opinion" line doesn't hold much water with me, because it was you who dismissed and belittled our opinions with the equally sarcastic comment quoted below:

Well summed up!

We've got all this excitement and talk of "farewell tours" etc, not because a route is being withdrawn, not because a class of trains are being scrapped, but because... a noisy engine is being replaced with a quieter one. Wow.

Yes, wow. To some of us that is a big deal, that is our opinion and we're entitled to it.

Now yes, I could go onto a thread about whatever it is that you like and make sarcastic "wow" comments, and belittle your enthusiasm for whatever stock you like, I could then say I am only expressing an opinion. I could do that, yes. But I won't.

The replacement of Deltics with HSTs could be classed as the end of an "era". Electrification was one. When the final HSTs are replaced by IEP/ something else. But not the replacement of engines in an otherwise identical train.

We can class this as an end of an era, and we will. If you don't agree with that, you are perfectly entitled that opinion as I have said, but that remains your opinion and if you don't consider it the end of an era, that's fine, but it does not mean that it is not an end of an era.

I'm not belittling your opinion at all, just stating that we are perfectly entitled to consider it an end of an era, and we are perfectly entitled to wish for a farewell tour or other event. Doesn't mean we'll get one, but we can hope and ask. FGW did something, which wasn't much (a run to Exeter in a fully formed non-refurb rake with the 2 remaining Valenta power cars at each end) but it was a lot better than nothing, and we appreciated that.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Sorry Yorkie, I thought this was a railway discussion forum. Didn't realise that someone having a different opinion to you was hijacking a thread. What about political threads then?

 

[ChrisCooper]

The thing is that engines are a big part of the character of any vehicle, whether it be a train, a car, a bus or a plane. The noise is quite a big factor, afterall it's a big part of most vehicles, it's something that people will recognise by sound, and not just experts. I think another issue with the HSTs is that once the GCs go over that will be it, no more Valentas. You can still hear Sulzers, EEs, Deltics etc either on the mainline or preserved railways, and hopefully will be able to for many more years. Same with Routemaster, yes those used on the Heritage Routes in London all have new engines and gearboxes (nicknamed "Dartmasters" as they have the engine and gearbox out of a Dennis Dart, which is the Sprinter of the bus world), but there is plenty of chance for people to travel on ones with their original AEC engines. Yes the 125 group wants to preserve a HST and refit Valentas, but that's going to be some time away, and can we really guarentee it's going to be a sucess (it wouldn't be the first time something like that has failed if it does)? Remember a HST isn't going to be very suitable for a preserved railway (not that many could even take one, not to mention if they would take to trundling around 100mph below their top speed), so they would need a hell of a lot of railtour work to keep the money coming in. By this time if we're lucky Diesel will cost twice what it does now, even firing them up for a couple of mins now and then to keep them in working order is going to be costly (I've got a preserved bus that is off the road, and it's amazing how quick the fuel goes down just firing it up to built the air up occasionally, and thats 1 11l engine, not 2 80l engines). Going to be an expensive business.
Just remembered too, at some point in the future a mainline HST will have to have ERTMS fitted to run on their traditional routes, further wacking up the cost.

 

[TGV]

I agree with ralphchadkirk - nobody is hijacking a thread.

He doesn't agree with you. That's all. He never claimed he was "correct" any more than you or anyone else.

We may all just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[yorkie]

Sorry Yorkie, I thought this was a railway discussion forum. Didn't realise that someone having a different opinion to you was hijacking a thread. What about political threads then?

1. It is. 2. It isn't, why do you suggest it is? 3. What about them?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree with ralphchadkirk - nobody is hijacking a thread.

Call it what you want, but if I was to go on a topic where people were saying a class of steam locos was about to be retired forever and people calling it the end of an era, then I would not go on that topic and start making sarcastic comments and going on about how it's not the end of an era.

He doesn't agree with you. That's all. He never claimed he was "correct" any more than you or anyone else.

His post reads otherwise to me...

The replacement of Deltics with HSTs could be classed as the end of an "era". Electrification was one. When the final HSTs are replaced by IEP/ something else. But not the replacement of engines in an otherwise identical train.

.. if he'd said "For me, it won't be the end of an era, but I considered electrification and the end of Deltics to be an end of an era" then that would be a different. But he stated something as fact, and is now using the "entitled to my opinion" excuse (which he is, and no-one is disputing that)

We may all just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I agree

 

[ralphchadkirk]

1. It is. 2. It isn't, why do you suggest it is? 3. What about them?

1. Good.
2. Then why did you say that it is?
3. People tend to disagree on those kind of threads, or did you not know that?

 

[TGV]

OK, so we're getting somewhere here yorkie. I was agreeing with the things you were typing until I read this:

"Call it what you want, but if I was to go on a topic where people were saying a class of steam locos was about to be retired forever and people calling it the end of an era, then I would not go on that topic and start making sarcastic comments and going on about how it's not the end of an era."

Now, I'm not being confrontational here, I'm merely stating facts:

1 - Our original point was exactly that it is NOT the same as an entire class of rolling stock being retired, which is a far stronger case for stating "end of an era". We do have a point here - like it or not. And furthermore, I think it is entirely reasonable and relevant to the thread topic - hence why I do not see it as being a "hijack".
2 - You say that YOU would not contribute to a thread where you disagreed with the general consensus already posted. That's fine. But many of us do - that's what makes for some of the interesting discussions. It would be pretty boring if we all agreed with each other.
3 - As for sarcasm - yes, you may have a point. Sarcasm is always less effective when typed as it can be taken the wrong way. However as long as the reader has a sense of humour and understands the point of view, it can be funny. I like a humerous debate.

On that note - this'll make you laugh - I like the sound of Valentas. I was merely offering an alternative view that I also happen to agree with. The MTU's are generally an improvement and step in the right direction.

 

[yorkie]

1. Good.
2. Then why did you say that it is?
3. People tend to disagree on those kind of threads, or did you not know that?

2. I didn't. 3. So?

As I said earlier, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But when we say that this is the end of an era (which, to many, it is), it does bug me if someone tries to come and state it as a fact that it isn't and makes sarcastic comments about the fact that some of us believe it is. That's not respecting others opinions is it?

1 - Our original point was exactly that it is NOT the same as an entire class of rolling stock being retired, which is a far stronger case for stating "end of an era". We do have a point here - like it or not. And furthermore, I think it is entirely reasonable and relevant to the thread topic - hence why I do not see it as being a "hijack".

Well to some people it is the same or equivalent to that! As far as I, and many others are concerned, it is the end of an era. People can disagree but I don't think it is right to state it as a fact that it isn't; it's subjective. It looks to me that he came on this topic simply to have a go at HST enthusiasts, hence the use of the term 'hijack', which you may disagree with but that's how it looked to me.

2 - You say that YOU would not contribute to a thread where you disagreed with the general consensus already posted. That's fine. But many of us do - that's what makes for some of the interesting discussions. It would be pretty boring if we all agreed with each other.

I agree but I didn't say I wouldn't contribute. I wouldn't go belittling their affection for the locos and making sarcastic "wow" comments. That doesn't necessarily mean I wouldn't contribute.

3 - As for sarcasm - yes, you may have a point. Sarcasm is always less effective when typed as it can be taken the wrong way. However as long as the reader has a sense of humour and understands the point of view, it can be funny. I like a humerous debate.

On that note - this'll make you laugh - I like the sound of Valentas. I was merely offering an alternative view that I also happen to agree with. The MTU's are generally an improvement and step in the right direction.

Well that's a different matter altogether really, and I think that it will take more than just new engines to make them reliable. Having the heavy maintenance take place at NL will help, but given that the guys at NL are more familiar with VP185s perhaps it would have made more sense to go with VP185s? However I am unsure how feasible that is as it would depend on engine availability. There does seem to be an assumption that whenever a GC HST powercar fails it is due to the Valenta engine among some people and of all the reasons I've been given for failures, I can't recall a Valenta engine failure occurring. They certainly are in need of investment, but also need to be well maintained too...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

That's a poor excuse for hijacking a thread where it is pretty obvious that some people do care, and to give reasons why people shouldn't care.

So, it's obvious from what you said above that someone who joins a thread to state there opinion to give reasons against the general consensus is hijacking. Don't try and pretend you didn't

 

[yorkie]

So, it's obvious from what you said above that someone who joins a thread to state there opinion to give reasons against the general consensus is hijacking. Don't try and pretend you didn't

You really don't have a clue, do you?

As I said above, people are entitled to their opinions but when someone starts slating the fact that other people do care about the withdrawal of a particular engine and making sarcastic comments toward them, then that's deliberately provoking people in my opinion. There's just no need for it. And what's your contribution to this debate, other than to defend someone who posted sarcastic comments and doesn't appear to respect our opinions on the loss of Valentas?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I notice you resorted to insults first Yorkie.

And what's your contribution to this debate, other than to defend someone who posted sarcastic comments and doesn't appear to respect our opinions on the loss of Valentas?

You aren't respecting his/her opinion though. You don't know who it is behind the username. It could quite possibly be someone with poor communication skills who doesn't know how to handle him/herself in those kind of situations.

My contribution to the debate? I was going to post some useless drivel, and then noticed someone had got there before me

 

[TrainBrain185]

I find it quite amusing that a darned engine is getting a few people hot under the collar about???? The handbags are out huh?
First, these Valenta fans? Your views of them would certainly change if you had to get stuck in that engine room and fix them!! Forget the sound they make!!
Valenta units have been a problem from day one in the production fleet. I am bewildered how they have gone thus far.
As mentioned, the VP185 fared a bit better but boy, they smoked and ate diesel.
For the more learned railogeans among you, I am sure at some point a couple of HST Power Cars were fitted with Mirlees engines as a trial?? Confirmation needed......
The MTU wins hands down on all fronts and yes, they even sound the business too with lots of torque at bottom end revs rather than the painful higher revving scream of the Valenta.
In a nutshell, the lower speed a diesel has to rev, they longer life and reliablilty it will have.
Oh, by the way, can anyone suggest why Grand Central Trains generates such a large following on this forum??

 

[yorkie]

I notice you resorted to insults first Yorkie.

What's the insult? Are you trolling? It looks like it, as you've not actually contributed anything to the debate and just argued in favour of someone who posted sarcastic comments.

You aren't respecting his/her opinion though.

What I'm not "respecting" is tbtc not respecting our opinions and making sarcastic comments toward us. I've said all along everyone is entitled to the opinions.

You don't know who it is behind the username. It could quite possibly be someone with poor communication skills who doesn't know how to handle him/herself in those kind of situations.

Indeed. I'm glad you appear to have changed your mind in that respect.

My contribution to the debate? I was going to post some useless drivel, and then noticed someone had got there before me

Point proven!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh, by the way, can anyone suggest why Grand Central Trains generates such a large following on this forum??

Because they offer good customer service? The staff are (with perhaps 1 exception who I've heard about) all great, and friendly and helpful. The policies are good. They do not screw customers with ridiculous fare policies. Their HSTs have extra legroom and comfortable (not hard!) seats.

I won't be so willing to pay a premium* to travel with them when they use MTUs as the draw of the Valentas will no longer be there, but I'll still travel with them whenever it is viable for me to do so.

* It generally costs more to travel with GC when you know your travel plans in advance, as GC do not do Advance tickets.

 

[GNERman]

they have just generally created a different service targeting different aspects eg:

more legroom
better staff
lining up seats with windows
good customer service

etc etc etc...

 

[TGV]

First, these Valenta fans? Your views of them would certainly change if you had to get stuck in that engine room and fix them!! Forget the sound they make!!
Valenta units have been a problem from day one in the production fleet. I am bewildered how they have gone thus far.

That was pretty much my initial point - but you can't keep the die-hard enthusiasts from their beloved screaming turbos and cooling fans, no matter how much better the new engines may be.

 

[MCR247]

Do you think getting MTU's will affect GCs profits because of the bashers that just travel on them for valentas?

 

[yorkie]

Do you think getting MTU's will affect GCs profits because of the bashers that just travel on them for valentas?

There will be less passengers travelling, however the number won't be enough to make a noticeable impact.

The majority are on passes/rovers anyway. Of those that buy point-to-point tickets, most probably travel north of York and the way the pricing works is that, unless you are returning within a month (not applicable to most bashers) or travelling on the 0646 from Sunderland (likewise), it is cheaper to get an inter-available York to Hartlepool, plus a GC only Hartlepool-Sunderland. This means that the revenue will be shared with TPE and Northern anyway so the effect is diluted. The 2nd ticket costs peanuts (£3 rtn).

They may lose a few hundred quid a month. But that's nothing compared to the ORCATS revenue they get. They won't notice any difference.

 

[TrainBrain185]

Do you think getting MTU's will affect GCs profits because of the bashers that just travel on them for valentas?

If it does....well good god, what is the world coming too? Pretty sad if you ask me. Put it this way, what will allegedly be lost revenue by the so called bashers of this world will be offset much more by greater reliability savings. GC should be content with that........

 

[90019]

If it does....well good god, what is the world coming too? Pretty sad if you ask me. Put it this way, what will allegedly be lost revenue by the so called bashers of this world will be offset much more by greater reliability savings. GC should be content with that........

I reckon the maintainance savings will probably be much greater than the revenue lost, which will probably not be much. There will also be slightly more seats available.

 

[GNERman]

Do you think getting MTU's will affect GCs profits because of the bashers that just travel on them for valentas?

is comparison of loss of passengers from a failure?

no, it won't affect it, it will make it better because of less reliability issues and thus less complaints, passenger loss etc...

 

[yorkie]

How many of the delays are due to the Valenta engines? I've heard of various other issues occuring, e.g. AWS faults, brake problems, etc. I suspect it's a relatively small proportion. But of course the Valenta dislikers would have us believe it's a much higher proportion

 

[90019]

I'd like to know how often their powercars are out of service because of engine problems?

 

[LE Greys]

I believe that's exactly what members of the 125 Group intend to do one day! hock: