GEML franchise 2016

[BuryBlue]

I agree - they have done vastly better than the absloute shower that cam before them, a company who invested **** all in everything over the whole franchise didn't even bother to properly clean stations and fix things which laid broken for a long time and the state of some of the trains was a disgrace and Abellio are like haven compared to NX who set this region back years.

However it doesn't mean they are immune from being criticized or they can walk on water and do no wrong.

Yes, but you're criticising the new fleet the regional routes are getting. I live on such a route (guess which one) and recently I've had to commute to Ipswich to work, and too many times I have got to the platform to find a 153 or even a bus replacement. I can't wait to get some new units, especially since it means we're slowly getting closer to a more joined up Anglia railway network. This fleet will mean service improvements in my area; with a new hourly Peterboro service, impending electrification and hopefully some later Ipswich-Cambridge services so I can get home from London after play time!

My station (Bury St Edmunds) has gone from being a derelict, p*** soaked station to having a brand new waiting room, a bigger ticket office and rather plush & clean new toilets, and has a fancy new bike rack which I often use in the space of a direct award. And the station I get off at on my commute (Ipswich) has just got a brand new waiting area too. Even the guards (I'm sure I've unknowingly met grumblingalong along the way!) have always been smiley and helpful. Abellio have been very good with the resources they've had and I'm glad they have won it.

 

[F Great Eastern]

You what? I think they are the best of our units and one in good fettle is my favourite unit to work. So kindly stop putting words in my mouth.

In my previous posts I was outlining that the 170/360/379 fleet should stay and the money saved on replacing them be put into proper intercity rolling stock and you claimed that you should not have to suffer second rate rolling stock.

Since that all that will be left will be the 170/360/379 fleet and the new stock, I assume you are calling that stock second rate since there is nothing else left?

 

[jopsuk]

Abellio have looked at all the options and, using their best possible forecasting, decided this is what is best for their business.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Yes, but you're criticising the new fleet the regional routes are getting. I live on such a route (guess which one) and recently I've had to commute to Ipswich to work, and too many times I have got to the platform to find a 153 or even a bus replacement. I can't wait to get some new units, especially since it means we're slowly getting closer to a more joined up Anglia railway network. This fleet will mean service improvements in my area; with a new hourly Peterboro service, impending electrification and hopefully some later Ipswich-Cambridge services so I can get home from London after play time!

I've stated that the 153s and 156s should be replaced by new build stock but there is no reason to replace the 170s other than replacing for replacing sake.

My station (Bury St Edmunds) has gone from being a derelict, p*** soaked station to having a brand new waiting room, a bigger ticket office and rather plush & clean new toilets, and has a fancy new bike rack which I often use in the space of a direct award. And the station I get off at on my commute (Ipswich) has just got a brand new waiting area too.

I completely agree they have done an excellent job with these things, the disgraceful state Ipswich was allowed to get in under National Express East Anglia was beyond words, they couldn't even manage to clean the roof in the whole time they were there, ticket machines frequently were out of order, waiting rooms locked out of use, toilets always blocked.

The screens in the departure hall were broke for several when they eventually did fix them, they brought ones from a WAGN station, that were removed for being unreliable and covered the WAGN logo up with a piece of paper, and they failed and were out of use for another 6 months, thats how much of a joke NXEA were.

 

[BuryBlue]

You suggested they were second rate, when they are far from it, they are perfectly serviceable trains as are the 360 and the 379 fleet in my book and they are suited to the work that they do.

I see the value in a uniform fleet too, but if push comes to shove and you can have an A grade Intercity train and a mostly uniform fleet with a few modern but not new trains as well, why you wouldn't go for that.

Where does this stop? Every single franchise can argue the same thing, we want uniform fleets, lets replace absolutely everything, just because we can? That is the attitude that seems to be on display here, why bother cascading trains along routes within a company at all, every time we need something new lets go out and order it? I'm sure the ROSCOS will be delighted.

Can you imagine the state things will be in if we do this on every single franchise? They could argue the very same reasons, we want new trains, lets go order another 1000 carriages, we want a uniform fleet, yes, I know that we have 200 carriages we ordered and had delivered 4 years ago, but they're second rate now, we want new and we want them now.

I read the cascade thread and it's pretty obvious already we have problems where a lot of units that are only around half way through their lifespan are now not going to find a home because of the crazy amount of new units that are coming in. All it's gonna mean is ROSCOS are gonna realise that they are going to get less than a full life out of perfectly good trains and they put their rates up = higher ticket prices.

Just so TOC's can have a bunch of shiny new toys in new paint they don't actually need. Considering the ridicolous restrictions that were placed on TOC's in the past, we've now come to a lubricious situation where the DFT is on one hand stopping people ordering relevant capacity for overcrowded services in recent years and to replace very very old stock, but is perfectly happy to sanction replacements for stock that is 5 years old.

Once again mate you're just not looking at the big picture. The DfT are using the opportunity to retire the most elderly of fleets on the rest of the network and also solving the DMU problem, all in one hit. It's a good bit of forward planning because between the 360s, 365s, and the DMU fleet the 319s, Pacers, HSTs and Mk3 coaches can finally be sent to Booths where they belong.

Did I mention a less constrained fleet will allow AGA to run the services the region deserves?

 

[Haydn1971]

This is starting to feel like a fawlty towers episode - no, I was talking to you but looking at her

Move along chaps

 

[F Great Eastern]

Once again mate you're just not looking at the big picture. The DfT are using the opportunity to retire the most elderly of fleets on the rest of the network and also solving the DMU problem, all in one hit. It's a good bit of forward planning because between the 360s, 365s, and the DMU fleet the 319s, Pacers, HSTs and Mk3 coaches can finally be sent to Booths where they belong.

With all the new units that are coming on stream across the country, there is going to have to be far more than 319s, pacers, HSTS and MK3s withdrawn, most of what you mention were already looking decidedly iffy even before this order, but now we're going to add another 800 EMU carriages onto the cascade and I honestly don't think there is that much life expired stock to withdraw that hasn't already been accounted for by other stock ordered prior to today.

 

[samuelmorris]

Once again mate you're just not looking at the big picture. The DfT are using the opportunity to retire the most elderly of fleets on the rest of the network and also solving the DMU problem, all in one hit. It's a good bit of forward planning because between the 360s, 365s, and the DMU fleet the 319s, Pacers, HSTs and Mk3 coaches can finally be sent to Booths where they belong.

Did I mention a less constrained fleet will allow AGA to run the services the region deserves?

I know it's a bit of a tongue in cheek post but the 360s most definitely do not belong at Booth's

 

[387star]

Great news

I have never travelled on their trains but the recent refurbishments look to be of a high standard with tasteful wall coverings etc

I wish crosscountry trains could be improved... They are starting to stand out like a sore thumb after so many other franchise announcements

I think abellio ga have been unfairly looked upon as they were originally omly meant to be operating a bery very short franchise and any other company would have had the same constraints

Dominic booth really seems to care about the region which is great

 

[LAX54]

Yes, but you're criticising the new fleet the regional routes are getting. I live on such a route (guess which one) and recently I've had to commute to Ipswich to work, and too many times I have got to the platform to find a 153 or even a bus replacement. I can't wait to get some new units, especially since it means we're slowly getting closer to a more joined up Anglia railway network. This fleet will mean service improvements in my area; with a new hourly Peterboro service, impending electrification and hopefully some later Ipswich-Cambridge services so I can get home from London after play time!

My station (Bury St Edmunds) has gone from being a derelict, p*** soaked station to having a brand new waiting room, a bigger ticket office and rather plush & clean new toilets, and has a fancy new bike rack which I often use in the space of a direct award. And the station I get off at on my commute (Ipswich) has just got a brand new waiting area too. Even the guards (I'm sure I've unknowingly met grumblingalong along the way!) have always been smiley and helpful. Abellio have been very good with the resources they've had and I'm glad they have won it.

Think what he was saying was, the 170's (360/379) are new, by all means put out to grass the 156's and 153's but keep the 170's, the new stock that comes in to the Region could be of a better spec for the Main Lines etc, 170s could be the mainstay of the branches bolstered by some new units, and not replace all stock wholesale just for the sake of it, quality above quantity ?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Think what he was saying was, the 170's (360/379) are new, by all means put out to grass the 156's and 153's but keep the 170's, the new stock that comes in to the Region could be of a better spec for the Main Lines etc, 170s could be the mainstay of the branches bolstered by some new units, and not replace all stock wholesale just for the sake of it, quality above quantity ?

Exactly, kick out
MK3 + 90 Rakes
5 x 153
9 x 156
46 x 317
94 x 321

Everyone who has old stock gets new stock. Everyone who has really old stock gets new stock or much newer stock.

Then at the next franchise you replace the 170/360 fleet.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

In my previous posts I was outlining that the 170/360/379 fleet should stay and the money saved on replacing them be put into proper intercity rolling stock and you claimed that you should not have to suffer second rate rolling stock.

Since that all that will be left will be the 170/360/379 fleet and the new stock, I assume you are calling that stock second rate since there is nothing else left?

What proof do you have that the Stadler IC units won't be fit for purpose ?

What proof do you have that any money would be saved retaining those three fleets ?

 

[grumblingalong]

Even the guards (I'm sure I've unknowingly met grumblingalong along the way!) have always been smiley and helpful.

If you have, for both of those comments to be true, it must have been on the homeward leg!

 

[TheEdge]

In my previous posts I was outlining that the 170/360/379 fleet should stay and the money saved on replacing them be put into proper intercity rolling stock and you claimed that you should not have to suffer second rate rolling stock.

Since that all that will be left will be the 170/360/379 fleet and the new stock, I assume you are calling that stock second rate since there is nothing else left?

No, I was making the point it is nice for a change that the rural lines are getting some direct rolling stock investment rather than sitting on the sidelines while everyone else gets new stock or just sit and be thankful for some nice hand me downs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even the guards (I'm sure I've unknowingly met grumblingalong along the way!) have always been smiley and helpful.

No chance, he is the grumpy one. He once kicked off an old lady for being too nice.

 

[BuryBlue]

With all the new units that are coming on stream across the country, there is going to have to be far more than 319s, pacers, HSTS and MK3s withdrawn, most of what you mention were already looking decidedly iffy even before this order, but now we're going to add another 600 EMU carriages onto the cascade and I honestly don't think there is that much life expired stock to withdraw that hasn't already been accounted for by other stock ordered prior to today.

The Turbostars are needed elsewhere. I recall recently having to go to Birmingham and going all the way via London in order to avoid being on a crowded XC Turbostar. They can be used to augment fleets elsewhere.

May I mention that just recently people were concocting plans for short form HSTs, inserting Mk3s inside of Voyagers and a geezer set up an organisation to convert tube stock, all to solve a DMU crisis! This needed to happen.

There's 319s, 465s, other Southeastern stock, newly electrified lines and let's also not forget extra vehicles needed for services enhancements. Some can be parked up for a while for as and when they're needed.

@grumblingalong; TheEdge: I was thinking of the Old Gits from the Harry Enfield sketch!

 

[grumblingalong]

No chance, he is the grumpy one. He once kicked off an old lady for being too nice.

Expired railcard mate, no surrender to the disorganised seniors.

 

[F Great Eastern]

What proof do you have that the Stadler IC units won't be fit for purpose ?

What proof do you have that any money would be saved retaining those three fleets ?

What proof do you have that these Stalder Units were more expensive and to a higher spec than what other bidders offered?

What proof do you have that the ROSCOS will not now put up leasing costs to recover the fact that some perfectly serviceable EMU's won't have to be wthdrawn before end of life because of the flood of un-needed new EMUs?

You are going to scrap some yes, but as is being found out in the other thread, even after scrapping the life expired junk, you still have a big surplus and you'll be looking at trains around 20 years out sitting idle because nobody has a home for them just so someone on GA can have a new train instead of a 6 year old one. It's not a very effiecent way to run an industry.

The fact is there is about 200 EMU's about to be made surplus to requirements, can you think of where they all are going to go, along with the ones which were already surplus before today?

 

[LAX54]

All this talk of new shiny trains, and new specs, will they 'fit' in Crown Point ?
built for Mk2's which were OK, but the Mklll's not so well !

 

[deltic]

There seems to be quite a bit of misunderstanding about what is going on here. New rolling stock can be obtained at a lower cost than existing rolling stock - nothing to do with DfT or PR or Brexit. New rolling stock also generates additional revenue so it's a win win situation for the operator and DfT.

 

[BuryBlue]

What proof do you have that these Stalder Units were more expensive and to a higher spec than what other bidders offered?

What proof do you have that the ROSCOS will not now put up leasing costs to recover the fact that some perfectly serviceable EMU's won't have to be wthdrawn before end of life because of the flood of un-needed new EMUs?

The fact is there is about 200 EMU's about to be made surplus to requirements, can you think of where they all are going to go, along with the ones which were already surplus before today?

There's a market abroad too, lest we forget. Thai Railways use 360s right now I believe.

 

[F Great Eastern]

No, I was making the point it is nice for a change that the rural lines are getting some direct rolling stock investment rather than sitting on the sidelines while everyone else gets new stock or just sit and be thankful for some nice hand me downs.

So tell me, if every single TOC and franchise took that approach, the leasing costs would be astronomical since the ROSCOS simply would not have assets being dumped as quickly as this would mean. The fact is if we're going to start ordering stock left right and centre if needed or not and start scrapping perfectly good EMU's after little more than half their lifespan, the ROSCOS are simply going to recover their costs over a shorter period of time = higher leasing costs = higher ticket prices.

Or do you think the Roscos are just going to take a huge cut to their income and say, don't worry lads, we'll just earn x amount less profit on every single train from now on, at the end of the day we don't care about making money, not like we are owned by the banks or anything.

 

[absolutelymilk]

What proof do you have that these Stalder Units were more expensive and to a higher spec than what other bidders offered?

What proof do you have that the ROSCOS will not now put up leasing costs to recover the fact that some perfectly serviceable EMU's won't have to be wthdrawn before end of life because of the flood of un-needed new EMUs?

You are going to scrap some yes, but as is being found out in the other thread, even after scrapping the life expired junk, you still have a big surplus and you'll be looking at trains around 20 years out sitting idle because nobody has a home for them just so someone on GA can have a new train instead of a 6 year old one. It's not a very effiecent way to run an industry.

The fact is there is about 200 EMU's about to be made surplus to requirements, can you think of where they all are going to go, along with the ones which were already surplus before today?

Is this the first post ever complaining that too many new trains have been ordered?

 

[F Great Eastern]

There's a market abroad too, lest we forget. Thai Railways use 360s right now I believe.

Do you really think they are going to be compatible or anything remotely similar to the 360s in this country? Really I've never been one to stick up for keeping old trains on, but it seems that peoples views of what is old is now very different to what it was 10 years ago.

 

[BuryBlue]

So tell me, if every single TOC and franchise took that approach, the leasing costs would be astronomical since the ROSCOS simply would not have assets being dumped as quickly as this would mean. The fact is if we're going to start ordering stock left right and centre if needed or not and start scrapping perfectly good EMU's after little more than half their lifespan, the ROSCOS are simply going to recover their costs over a shorter period of time = higher leasing costs = higher ticket prices.

Or do you think the Roscos are just going to take a huge cut to their income and say, don't worry lads, we'll just earn x amount less profit on every single train from now on, at the end of the day we don't care about making money, not like we are owned by the banks or anything.

I can see what you're saying but the market will stop that happening, because if they push EMU hiring costs too high then new rolling stock will outcompete the older stuff.

 

[deltic]

So tell me, if every single TOC and franchise took that approach, the leasing costs would be astronomical since the ROSCOS simply would not have assets being dumped as quickly as this would mean. The fact is if we're going to start ordering stock left right and centre if needed or not and start scrapping perfectly good EMU's after little more than half their lifespan, the ROSCOS are simply going to recover their costs over a shorter period of time = higher leasing costs = higher ticket prices.

Or do you think the Roscos are just going to take a huge cut to their income and say, don't worry lads, we'll just earn x amount less profit on every single train from now on, at the end of the day we don't care about making money, not like we are owned by the banks or anything.

No no no - as new rolling stock can be leased at lower cost than existing rolling stock and surplus stock becomes available then leasing costs for second hand stock will have to come down in price otherwise no one will be leasing it.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Is this the first post ever complaining that too many new trains have been ordered?

I just think that there has to be a balance between quality and quantity and what is good for the industry and just like too little rolling stock is a serious issue, ordering as much rolling stock for the sake of it is an issue as well.

I spent the last several years on here moaning that not enough were ordered and the DFT were tight arsed bandits who were destroying railways in this country and were directly causing overcrowding and then blaming the TOCs.

It's no surprise now to see that TOC's are ordering stock the DFT are trying to be front and centre, but when something goes wrong or the royally fudge up aka FCC and Thameslink, it's all the operators fault.

I was once told about a conversation between a TOC and the DFT many years ago about over-crowding and new stock and honestly you couldn't make it up, it was like, yes you have to do something about it, no we're not going to let you do anything about it, but yes, you have to do something.

 

[BuryBlue]

No no no - as new rolling stock can be leased at lower cost than existing rolling stock and surplus stock becomes available then leasing costs for second hand stock will have to come down in price otherwise no one will be leasing it.

Not only that but as lines get electrified - The Chiltern Main Line for example - any parked up EMU stock like our 360s as an example will be used, while the DMUs there would enable the Sprinters to be scrapped.

Perfectly good EMUs mid-life will not be scrapped, they will be stored until they are needed.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I can see what you're saying but the market will stop that happening, because if they push EMU hiring costs too high then new rolling stock will outcompete the older stuff.

That's what happened here, especially with the 379 fleet. They were bonkers expensive compared to what was being offered new.

 

[F Great Eastern]

No no no - as new rolling stock can be leased at lower cost than existing rolling stock and surplus stock becomes available then leasing costs for second hand stock will have to come down in price otherwise no one will be leasing it.

But at one point there is going to have to be a tipping point isn't there?

Too much new stock at low cost prices is going to reduce ROSCO profits and if second hand stock is going to come down in price as well because of less demand, they are going to take a hit there as well.

Do you think that the ROSCOS are going to sit idly by and watch their income and profit hit the floor due to lower money being made on new stock and less demand for older stock that will not meet their projection for lifetime revenue?

They are banks, they are not charities.

 

[BuryBlue]

But at one point there is going to have to be a tipping point isn't there?

Too much new stock at low cost prices is going to reduce ROSCO profits and if second hand stock is going to come down in price as well because of less demand, they are going to take a hit there as well.

Do you think that the ROSCOS are going to sit idly by and watch their income and profit hit the floor due to lower money being made on new stock and less demand for older stock that will not meet their projection for lifetime revenue?

They are banks, they are not charities.

That's capitalism. They will have to make prices competitive enough so that a new rolling stock order is not cheaper to do.