George Floyd Death and the Wider Consequences

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FelixtheCat

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For context, the statue was of Slave Trader Edward Colston. Pulling down statues of oppressors is a well-used symbolic act during times of protest.

This statue has been controversial in the past.

A statue can't really be described as an amenity.


(I make no normative judgements at this point.)
 
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Mojo

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For context, the statue was of Slave Trader Edward Colston. Pulling down statues of oppressors is a well-used symbolic act during times of protest.

This statue has been controversial in the past.

A statue can't really be described as an amenity.

(I make no normative judgements at this point.)
Do you have any connection to Bristol? I do, having spent most of my teenage years in the city in which my parents still reside. Edward Colston’s organisation might have been a slave trader in his later years, but his benevolence also funded infrastructure, charity and other services in the city.

The city over the past few years has addressed the issue of Colston through many consultations, public meetings, petitions and other items. In many cases such as the Colston Hall, the private owners have decided to come up with a new name, but the general consensus in the city, including that of the main campaigning group that sought to bring about the discussion, was to implement new plaques to remember the vlctims, public art and other things to allow people to think about what happened and make up their own minds. Tearing down statues, shutting down conversation, and pretending that the past didn't happen is not really a way forward.

The statue is also listed, to suggest that public sculptures do not contribute to the overall character or enjoyment of an area is laughable.
 
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158747

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I have just seen the footage on YouTube, what a disgrace. Edward Colston was a controversial figure in the history of Bristol, but what has happened in the past cannot be changed but should be learned from and the statue should have been allowed to remain in place as a reminder of Bristol’s past.
The statue should be retrieved from the water in the docks, repaired and reinstalled on its plinth ASAP as a sign of defiance to the hooligans who vandalised it.
 

prod_pep

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Horrible and disgraceful to see that statue pulled down and thrown in the river. My heart also sank and I too hope it is retrieved and restored.
 

jumble

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Could I just say how grateful I am to our hard working police officers in London.

Whilst the rest of the capital is sporting quite incredible tans like they’ve been sunning it up on a nice island somewhere despite being lounging around at home on near full pay, our police have been working flat out, with many rest days cancelled, shifts extended, and so on, making us all safer whilst enforcing the law in close proximity to people outside their household. And all this on quite paltry salaries, certainly not enough to live on in London!
Mojo I agree wholeheartedly and anyone who condemns our police gets asked a simple question by me.
Where in the world has better policing than the UK?
The police are the only thing that stops total anarchy
 

thejuggler

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Retrieved, not restored and proper info explaining how he made his money, who suffered and how and why he ended up being dragged off the plinth.
 

deltic

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It should be recovered but stuck in a museum with a detailed explanation of the context and history. Given there are apparently more statutes of goats and people called John in the UK than of non-royal women it is perhaps time we looked at who we immortalise in our public places.
 

deltic

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Mojo I agree wholeheartedly and anyone who condemns our police gets asked a simple question by me.
Where in the world has better policing than the UK?
The police are the only thing that stops total anarchy
Its very difficult to measure if somebody's police force is worse or better than the UK. Compounded by the fact that the UK of course has many police forces are varying effectiveness. Scandinavian countries tend to score highest in European surveys with regard to public trust in the police..

In the UK 75% of White British have confidence in the local police, as do 76% of Black Africans but only 56% Black Caribbean and 58% Mixed White/Black Caribbean. Chinese at 87% had the highest confidence score.
 
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FelixtheCat

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Do you have any connection to Bristol? I do, having spent most of my teenage years in the city in which my parents still reside. Edward Colston’s organisation might have been a slave trader in his later years, but his benevolence also funded infrastructure, charity and other services in the city.
I do.

The city over the past few years has addressed the issue of Colston through many consultations, public meetings, petitions and other items. In many cases such as the Colston Hall, the private owners have decided to come up with a new name, but the general consensus in the city, including that of the main campaigning group that sought to bring about the discussion, was to implement new plaques to remember the [victims], public art and other things to allow people to think about what happened and make up their own minds. Tearing down statues, shutting down conversation, and pretending that the past didn't happen is not really a way forward.
So, controversial.

By pulling this statue down, people are discussing the issues more than they would be otherwise. This exchange is testement to that.

It's also not pretending that the past didn't happen. Statues are there to honor individuals. Given Colston's connection to the slave trade, there are grounds to want to challenge the city's honouring of him. Statues are not the only medium of teaching people about history.

The statue is also listed, to suggest that public sculptures do not contribute to the overall character or enjoyment of an area is laughable.
I didn't say that, but I'm going to withdraw from discussion about the semantics on the word 'amenity' as it won't get us anywhere.


(Again, no normative judgement on issue.)
 

UP13

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My heart just sank when I saw the tearing down of that statue in Bristol this afternoon. How truly awful to destroy history and public amenity like that.
I'll be honest - I was surprised the authorities didn't take it down years ago.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Mojo I agree wholeheartedly and anyone who condemns our police gets asked a simple question by me.
Where in the world has better policing than the UK?
The police are the only thing that stops total anarchy
Well I would argue that Mounties - Royal Canadian mounted Police are revered and a national source of pride - but yes, British police are by and large thought highly of.
 
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Twotwo

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My heart just sank when I saw the tearing down of that statue in Bristol this afternoon. How truly awful to destroy history and public amenity like that.

Loooooool are you serious? I don't know why that statue was still up. I'm glad they removed it. It's estimated 19000 slaves died during the crossing.
 

xc170

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Floyde was a criminal, his background tes you all you need to know about him, the way he is being painted as some kind of martyr by these protestors is disgusting.

Maybe If the police in this country were a bit more brutal then we wouldn't have so many people running around stabbing each other.
 

Twotwo

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Floyde was a criminal, his background tes you all you need to know about him, the way he is being painted as some kind of martyr by these protestors is disgusting.

Maybe If the police in this country were a bit more brutal then we wouldn't have so many people running around stabbing each other.

Doesn't matter if he was a criminal or not, nothing can JUSTIFY the force.
 

yorkie

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Floyde was a criminal, his background tes you all you need to know about him, the way he is being painted as some kind of martyr by these protestors is disgusting.

Maybe If the police in this country were a bit more brutal then we wouldn't have so many people running around stabbing each other.
Two wrongs never make a right (and I don't know what he did but, whatever he did, no-one deserves to be killed, least of all in that manner), and I do not agree that we want a brutal police force in this country; quite the opposite in fact.
 

Mojo

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Loooooool are you serious? I don't know why that statue was still up. I'm glad they removed it. It's estimated 19000 slaves died during the crossing.
I know why it was still up, because fortunately the majority of those in power don’t agree with destroying their city as some kind of virtue signalling. You can’t judge historical figures by modern standards. If you want to change the future then you can’t erase what happened in the past.
 

Twotwo

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I know why it was still up, because fortunately the majority of those in power don’t agree with destroying their city as some kind of virtue signalling. You can’t judge historical figures by modern standards. If you want to change the future then you can’t erase what happened in the past.
I can't judge him by modern standards yeah because back then its normal to enslave thousands of people and for over 19000 to die during the crossing. No one is trying to erase what's happened but I don't see the point of him being a statue wherr there's more positive figures.

Let's build Hitler monuments around the country. If we want to change the future we can't erase what's happened in the past isn't it!!!!!
 

NorthOxonian

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I can't judge him by modern standards yeah because back then its normal to enslave thousands of people and for over 19000 to die during the crossing. No one is trying to erase what's happened but I don't see the point of him being a statue wherr there's more positive figures.

Let's build Hitler monuments around the country. If we want to change the future we can't erase what's happened in the past isn't it!!!!!
It's difficult, but I don't think you can just tear down statues you disagree with, that way lies anarchy. I completely understand the reasoning and agree that he shouldn't have a statue, but the methods are as important as the outcomes.

What they should have done is made the council hold a referendum. It would have highlighted the issues in a democratic way, and given Bristol's political leaning it would have easily passed. No doubt it would have then made national news - city votes to remove statue of slave owner. It'd be much more productive than vandalism.
 

Twotwo

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It's difficult, but I don't think you can just tear down statues you disagree with, that way lies anarchy. I completely understand the reasoning and agree that he shouldn't have a statue, but the methods are as important as the outcomes.

What they should have done is made the council hold a referendum. It would have highlighted the issues in a democratic way, and given Bristol's political leaning it would have easily passed. No doubt it would have then made national news - city votes to remove statue of slave owner. It'd be much more productive than vandalism.

I've heard they've tried but was ignored on numerous occasion. And then you got some people that are more outraged about the statue then what he did lmao.
 

yorkie

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What they should have done is made the council hold a referendum. It would have highlighted the issues in a democratic way, and given Bristol's political leaning it would have easily passed. No doubt it would have then made national news - city votes to remove statue of slave owner. It'd be much more productive than vandalism.
I completely agree.
 

Mojo

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I've heard they've tried but was ignored on numerous occasion. And then you got some people that are more outraged about the statue then what he did lmao.
Heard from whom?

The politics of Bristol, of which I was once a part when I lived there, is not something that would have ignored something like this? The council and local community groups, along with public involvement and debate, decided that the best way forward was to keep this as a way of remembering history, but allowing public art, signage and plaques, to show people going past what actually happened.
 

Twotwo

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Heard from whom?

The politics of Bristol, of which I was once a part when I lived there, is not something that would have ignored something like this? The council and local community groups, along with public involvement and debate, decided that the best way forward was to keep this as a way of remembering history, but allowing public art, signage and plaques, to show people going past what actually happened.

Are you suggesting they haven't tried to go through the proper channel because I've been reading otherwaise. Happy to be proven wrong tho!
 

Greenboy

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My heart just sank when I saw the tearing down of that statue in Bristol this afternoon. How truly awful to destroy history and public amenity like that.
Absolutely disgusting behaviour and I have no time whatsoever for these people........ black lives matter? Well clearly no lives matter to them or they wouldn't be having demo's in the middle of Covid-19. Let's hope none of their families end up in hospital on ventilators saying "I can't breath" as a result of their irresponsible behaviour.

As for George Floyd........... obviously he didn't deserve to die but the fact is he is a violent criminal. Where's the outrage over the death of retired police captain David Dorn?
 

GRALISTAIR

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General update - no demonstrations here in Dalton GA. My wife and I are avoiding downtown Atlanta. There have been some demonstrations in Chattanooga TN about 25 minutes north of us but they have been peaceful. Dalton GA have whites in the minority. Folks of Hispanic origin are the majority here (Dalton, GA) with quite a few African American. Quite a few highway patrol and police are African Americans so all seems peaceful thank goodness at the moment. Long term there has to be changes in policing tactics which in my view was overdue anyway.
 

Ianno87

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Absolutely disgusting behaviour and I have no time whatsoever for these people........ black lives matter? Well clearly no lives matter to them or they wouldn't be having demo's in the middle of Covid-19. Let's hope none of their families end up in hospital on ventilators saying "I can't breath" as a result of their irresponsible behaviour.
The irony is that BAME people are disproportionately likely to be affected by Covid.... So obviously lets have a mass public gathering during a pandemic...
 

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I support the principle of protesting against racism. Although it really isn't wise for the organisers to organise demos during a pandemic, there was no alternative but to allow them to go ahead.

I absolutely deplore attempts on any 'side' to invoke a race war. It's absolutely deplorable that people are doing this. The attacks on police, journalists and others must stop. The organisers of these demos have a responsibility to try to restore calm. Saying "it's only a minority" isn't good enough.

Anyone who tries to claim that violence or vandalism are acceptable needs to seriously re-think; what on earth do they think such tactics are going to achieve? Fuelling the far-right is the last thing we need!

I'm still deeply disturbed by what I read in post #5, and to see such acts happen in London is extremely concerning; I do hope the member concerned has reconsidered their position. We want the same outcome after all, but I know that violence and vandalism is not how we should do things in this country. I hope the member concerned joins me in condemning the acts of violence and vandalism we saw this weekend and does their utmost to help deter people from carrying out such acts in future.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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I support the principle of protesting against racism.
It's all very well supporting the principle, but would you actually do anything about it yourself? Racism in our society is rife , and middle class liberals occasionally wringing their hands about it has done very little to eradicate it.
...and I can't see anything in post #5 to worry about, certainly wouldn't make my heart sink.
 

yorkie

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It's all very well supporting the principle, but would you actually do anything about it yourself? Racism in our society is rife , and middle class liberals occasionally wringing their hands about it has done very little to eradicate it.
I do what I can (and fortunately I am in a position to influence others).

I do not agree it is "rife". Things are getting better; more can be done but we have made great strides. But we need to continue to go about this in the right way.
...and I can't see anything in post #5 to worry about, certainly wouldn't make my heart sink.
Are you seriously condoning acts of violence and vandalism?! If so, my heart sinks further.
 

DynamicSpirit

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It's all very well supporting the principle, but would you actually do anything about it yourself? Racism in our society is rife ,
That's a vague claim that I keep seeing over and over again - usually in a context in which the speaker is clearly specifically talking about anti-black racism by whites. But I very rarely see any facts presented that back it up. Usually the 'facts' presented take the form of questionable statistics (for example, the oft-quoted stop-and-search stats that take no account of location, demographics, or the typical profile of offenders that police might reasonably be searching for), or anecdotal evidence of bad things happening to people who happen to be black and appear to be simply assuming that their being black is the reason for whatever happened - despite that bad things often happen to people of all ethnicities. I don't doubt that there is some anti-black racism in our society - or that it's rife in some parts of society (for example, the certain far right groups). And I don't doubt that it was rife 50 or so years ago. And of course, it is atrocious when it happens, and potentially horrendous for the victims. But if you want to claim that it's rife in the UK today, perhaps you could present some plausible evidence for that?
 

Arglwydd Golau

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Yorkie, I very much condemn the original act of eight minutes of extreme violence by a police officer on an innocent man. What has happened afterwards is an inevitable consequence of years of racism. Please don't let what has happened since that act of police brutality (and many other similar acts over the years) become the story.

That's a vague claim that I keep seeing over and over again - usually in a context in which the speaker is clearly specifically talking about anti-black racism by whites. But I very rarely see any facts presented that back it up. Usually the 'facts' presented take the form of questionable statistics (for example, the oft-quoted stop-and-search stats that take no account of location, demographics, or the typical profile of offenders that police might reasonably be searching for), or anecdotal evidence of bad things happening to people who happen to be black and appear to be simply assuming that their being black is the reason for whatever happened - despite that bad things often happen to people of all ethnicities. I don't doubt that there is some anti-black racism in our society - or that it's rife in some parts of society (for example, the certain far right groups). And I don't doubt that it was rife 50 or so years ago. And of course, it is atrocious when it happens, and potentially horrendous for the victims. But if you want to claim that it's rife in the UK today, perhaps you could present some plausible evidence for that?
Are you being serious?
 
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