German Rail in decline ?

[duesselmartin]

I just took an ICE from Paris to Frankfurt today that was delayed by 30 minutes. What surprised me was how it got delayed in the first place considering nothing unusual happened on the trip. There was however some notable times after already being delayed that included waiting (i.e. circling) close to Frankfurt Hpb which leads me to a comparison...

In France I have been on numerous trains that have been delayed at departure (for example security) but the trains would always arrive on time (once making up a 30 minute delay on a 150 minute journey!). This gives me the impression that the French railway system has built-in a lot more slack than the German railway system.

Another good example from France was that when one long intercity train broke down, they simply attached two long intercity trains together on the next departure for the scheduled train and cancelled train, and this is doable because the platforms were able to cope with it. They had slack to be able to run special double long trains.

The French decided to improve their railways by building entirely new railways and thereby expanding capacity. They also built a number of commuter and suburban railways to expand capacity at mainline railway station (e.g. RER). This allowed for the French to cope with expanding passenger usage AND allow it keep significant room/slack for special situations.

The Germans decided to replace certain parts of track and improve existing infrastructure, but rising passenger use created a over saturated infrastructure and no room for slack.

And I think something to point out is that while most of the problems in Germany seem to be related to excessive delays, most problems in the UK seem to be outright cancellations. This is probably because frequencies tend to be higher in the UK meaning that catching the next train isn't so outrageous, whereas in Germany the frequencies tend to be lower but routes more numerous.

Hi. Trains don't circle as they don't fall out of the sky. If compare timetables you will find that in most lines, German trains Run more frequently than French. Also France has compulsory reservations on in long distance services, Germany is more flexible here too.
Also France is Paris centred.
In the end DB gets you there somehow. Late yes, with a different train than planned yes, but somehow. Yes

 

[SocietyForFer]

Hi. Trains don't circle as they don't fall out of the sky. If compare timetables you will find that in most lines, German trains Run more frequently than French. Also France has compulsory reservations on in long distance services, Germany is more flexible here too.
Also France is Paris centred.
In the end DB gets you there somehow. Late yes, with a different train than planned yes, but somehow. Yes

The key point about the one off comparison was that the German train couldn't make up a delay by running faster and had to wait for free paths before getting into Frankfurt (reminiscent of how an aircraft circles while waiting for a landing slot). It's possibly due to over saturated infrastructure on the German side, whereas the French did more to create more capacity (fully new LGV to free up existing railways and RER to free up urban stations).

I also think that the UK probably suffers from a similar or worse problem, but simply cancels the train because frequencies are often quite higher than in Germany, so they tend to be excluded from statistical comparisons.

 

[CdBrux]

In the end DB gets you there somehow. Late yes, with a different train than planned yes, but somehow. Yes

This is true, but the problem is this seems to happen a lot of the time and makes a poor case for rail travel vs alternatives. Whichever way you look at it the timekeeping of DB both locally and nationally is awful

 

[rvdborgt]

For me for now the answer seems to be book Thalys for that section.

I suppose until the 408s will come to Brussels, which should be before the summer.
Some DB drivers would gladly drive the 406s to the scrapyard for free...

 

[nwales58]

In the end DB gets you there somehow. Late yes, with a different train than planned yes, but somehow. Yes

Occasionally not even to the desired country on the right day.

Last autumn I tried Bad Gastein-Lille in a day d 06xx via Köln. Even with about 3 hours slack planned in we got to Brussels too late for the last train across the border and had to spend the night in Kortrijk Ibis (not recommended). That was down to Bavarian border guards small delay, failed train near Rosenheim, finally the ICE-M two hours later than planned leaving Frankfurt about 30 late reaching Brussels over an hour late.

Should have gone via Paris.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I suppose until the 408s will come to Brussels, which should be before the summer.
Some DB drivers would gladly drive the 406s to the scrapyard for free...

Is their unreliability the main cause for that routes particularly poor performance?

 

[rvdborgt]

Is their unreliability the main cause for that routes particularly poor performance?

Yes it is. The route to Amsterdam is in the same boat.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Another strike announced by GDL for 24 hours from 21:00 tonight. Thankfully I am on Eurostar to cologne tommorow!

Umbrella organisation of unions has criticised them too. I do find it unbelievable they are asking for a decrease in working week with no impact on pay despite there being a shortage of staff. It is quite clearly a non starter and unacceptable to DB so was always going to be a sticking point.

Brother arriving in Düsseldorf airport to get to cologne by train so based on previous strikes I am thinking he will be okay but probably standing on an RRX service.

 

[Goldfish62]

Another strike announced by GDL for 24 hours from 21:00 tonight. Thankfully I am on Eurostar to cologne tommorow!

Umbrella organisation of unions has criticised them too. I do find it unbelievable they are asking for a decrease in working week with no impact on pay despite there being a shortage of staff. It is quite clearly a non starter and unacceptable to DB so was always going to be a sticking point.

Brother arriving in Düsseldorf airport to get to cologne by train so based on previous strikes I am thinking he will be okay but probably standing on an RRX service.

It's really stuffed my trip. Still, contingency Plan B is in operation, ie travelling today.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It's really stuffed my trip. Still, contingency Plan B is in operation, ie travelling today.

It's hard work it really is. Just very glad I paid £2 for Eurostar tickets throughout rather than ICE.

We are using ICE back to Brussels on Monday but I'm hoping they don't announce another strike so soon.

 

[rvdborgt]

We are using ICE back to Brussels on Monday but I'm hoping they don't announce another strike so soon.

GDL said there wouldn't be any more strikes until 7 January:

GDL-Chef zum Bahn-Streik: "Die Arbeitgeberseite hat null Lösung"

Ein letzter Streik vor dem "Weihnachtsfrieden": Im Tarifstreit erhöht die Lokführergewerkschaft GDL mit ihrem Warnstreik ab dem Abend noch einmal den Druck auf die Bahn. Das Unternehmen reagiert mit scharfer Kritik.

www.tagesschau.de

 

[Jamesrob637]

I wish they'd need the mandatory 14 days over there too. This latest one might have been announced before 22.11, but I know some that have had barely a week's notice, let alone two.

 

[Goldfish62]

I wish they'd need the mandatory 14 days over there too. This latest one might have been announced before 22.11, but I know some that have had barely a week's notice, let alone two.

The one starting tonight was only announced yesterday evening. There is no statutory notice period for announcing strikes in Germany.

 

[duesselmartin]

GDL in the western regions of Germany are weak on private operators and signalling staff, so RRX and Eurostar/Thalys should run. DB services will be serverly affected with DB cancelling services "just in case" implementing an emergency timetable. GDL is a lot stronger in the east of the country. Expect wide disruption there as signalling staff also walked out there the last time.

 

[The exile]

Back to the thread title. Currently half way through a few days in Karlsruhe - first longer period in Germany since pre-COVID. What I’m noticing is that the expectation of punctuality (to the minute) as “the norm” has completely disappeared. 23 local journeys so far; only 4 punctual as the Germans would have once upon a time considered, and (surprisingly) only one ticket check…

 

[Goldfish62]

Back to the thread title. Currently half way through a few days in Karlsruhe - first longer period in Germany since pre-COVID. What I’m noticing is that the expectation of punctuality (to the minute) as “the norm” has completely disappeared. 23 local journeys so far; only 4 punctual as the Germans would have once upon a time considered, and (surprisingly) only one ticket check…

I have found over the past few days that general lateness of a few minutes has spread to private operators such as Erixx and Veolia. No joke when connections are around 5 min on an hourly service pattern.

And yes. I have a Deutschland ticket and have only had it scanned once in the past week's travel.

 

[Jamesrob637]

How are ÖBB and SBB/CFF/FFS looking in comparison?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How are ÖBB and SBB/CFF/FFS looking in comparison?

Significantly better. SBB are considering banning DB from running into Switzerland as their delays are making a mess of the timetable, I believe. Though Italian unpunctuality has done that for years.

 

[nwales58]

Significantly better. SBB are considering banning DB from running into Switzerland as their delays are making a mess of the timetable, I believe

The current timetable change has a) truncated the Frankfurt-Milan at Zürich, b) removed the two hauled Hamburg-Interlakens (though probably for other reasons) without replacement so far. The two-hourly ICEs to Zürich and 3 daily Interlaken ICEs are unchanged in the current timetable despite the threats.

Edit: ignore above. Only true for some weeks in Jan and Feb.

 

[rvdborgt]

The current timetable change has a) truncated the Frankfurt-Milan at Zürich, b) removed the two hauled Hamburg-Interlakens (though probably for other reasons) without replacement so far. The two-hourly ICEs to Zürich and 3 daily Interlaken ICEs are unchanged in the current timetable despite the threats.

a) It rather looks like EC 52/53 now only run on weekends and are completely cancelled on weekdays. They didn't and don't serve Zurich but continue to run via Brig and Bern and are truncated at Basel.
b) I still find EC 6/7 Interlaken-Hamburg and EC 8/9 Zurich-Hamburg (with pano).

Also see Vagonweb.cz.

 

[nwales58]

Oops, it is operating dates. I happened to be planning for dates in mid-January and assumed EC6-9 were dead in Germany. In fact it seems they are only scrubbed north of Basel from 2nd to 22nd January.

The residual Frankfurt stubs do seem to run to Zürich rather than ending at Basel,
eg EC(E)451 Frankfurt-Milano last week becomes EC151 Frankfurt-Zürich.

GDL now promise strikes from 08/01/24 onwards so I may postpone again.

 

[duesselmartin]

There was a discussion on the future of that RC pair so I was also pleased to see it is still there.

The strike could be a long one. Certainly no 24 hours only.

 

[k-c-p]

Oops, it is operating dates. I happened to be planning for dates in mid-January and assumed EC6-9 were dead in Germany. In fact it seems they are only scrubbed north of Basel from 2nd to 22nd January.

The Riedbahn (Line Frankfurt-Biblis-Mannheim) will be closed for three weeks beginning of January. DB is doing preparatory work ahead of the 6 month closure that will take place later this year (when the line will be given a complete makeover). As the aternate routes (via Heidelberg/Darmstadt or Mainz/Worms) cannot accommodate all diverted services, adjustments were necessary: e.g. some trains curtailed to Mannheim instead of Frankfurt or like the mentioned ECs are cancelled.

The whole thing will be hell for the commuters as lots of regional services will be replaced by busses to make room for long distance trains (Replacement service map).

The 3 weeks in January are a bit of trial run as more or less the same service patterns (for both trains and bus services) that will come into effect during the closure later this year will be run.

 

[nwales58]

The Hamburg-CH ECs therefore will not run from 15/07/2024 until mid-December during the Riedbahn closure? Or is the plan to operate them on some busy tourism days in the summer?

 

[DanielB]

The Hamburg - CH ECs are not using the Riedbahn, but actually the DB website with planned engineering works doesn't refer to anything affecting these trains.
It just says that trains using the Riedbahn are being diverted and some of those trains are cancelled.

 

[nwales58]

k-c-p was explaining that it's the knock-on effects around Mannheim that cause them to be cancelled in the January 3 weeks.

 

[The exile]

I just took an ICE from Paris to Frankfurt today that was delayed by 30 minutes. What surprised me was how it got delayed in the first place considering nothing unusual happened on the trip. There was however some notable times after already being delayed that included waiting (i.e. circling) close to Frankfurt Hpb which leads me to a comparison...

It is of course - in theory at least - much more difficult to make up a delay that happens right at the end of a journey than one that happens at the beginning (I know that on a congested railway early delays may well get compounded by the consequent loss of paths). There is currently a weak bridge somewhere on the approaches to Frankfurt Hbf which is cutting down the number of paths available into the station - leading to delays. It does of course beg the question how a significant bridge on the approach to one of Europe's key railway stations could have been let get into that state - the "maintenance holiday" so beloved of short-sighted bean-counters, no doubt. Those bean-counters have no doubt moved on (or up) so don't have to live with the consequences.

 

[paul_munich]

It is of course - in theory at least - much more difficult to make up a delay that happens right at the end of a journey than one that happens at the beginning (I know that on a congested railway early delays may well get compounded by the consequent loss of paths). There is currently a weak bridge somewhere on the approaches to Frankfurt Hbf which is cutting down the number of paths available into the station - leading to delays. It does of course beg the question how a significant bridge on the approach to one of Europe's key railway stations could have been let get into that state - the "maintenance holiday" so beloved of short-sighted bean-counters, no doubt. Those bean-counters have no doubt moved on (or up) so don't have to live with the consequences.

The bridge at Frankfurt Mörfelder-Landstrasse you are referring to has been hit by a truck, but has been repaired already.

 

[nwales58]

Next GDL strike announced as Wednesday 10/01/2024 0200 until Friday 12/01/2024 1800. Freight starts earlier, 09/01/2024 1800.

It's getting more like France. German farmers are staging pre-announced slow tractor conveys on main roads and motorways to every state capital on Monday, thanks to the equivalent of red diesel being scrapped due to the infamous multi-billion budget fiasco.

 

[Goldfish62]

Next GDL strike announced as Wednesday 10/01/2024 0200 until Friday 12/01/2024 1800. Freight starts earlier, 09/01/2024 1800.

It's getting more like France. German farmers are staging pre-announced slow tractor conveys on main roads and motorways to every state capital on Monday, thanks to the equivalent of red diesel being scrapped due to the infamous multi-billion budget fiasco.

DB is seeking an injunction:

Deutsche Bahn: German rail union plans fresh strikes – DW – 01/07/2024

The GDL union is calling for another strike in an escalation of a wage dispute with rail operator Deutsche Bahn.

www.dw.com

CARS AND TRANSPORTATIONGERMANY

Deutsche Bahn: German rail union plans fresh strikes​

01/07/2024January 7, 2024
The GDL union is calling for another strike in an escalation of a wage dispute with rail operator Deutsche Bahn.

Germany's GDL train drivers' union on Sunday announced further strike action as talks with state-owned rail operator Deutsche Bahn (DB) appeared to be deadlocked.
The union has announced a strike in passenger transport starting early Wednesday and lasting until Friday evening. GDL drivers in freight transport begin their strike on January 9, the union said.
The two sides have been trying to agree on a deal on working hours, with GDL wanting hours cut from 38 to 35 per week without affecting pay.
GDL has already brought passenger trains to a standstill twice with 20-hour and 24-hour strikes.

DB seeking and injunction​

"This strike is not only completely unnecessary, but we also consider it to be legally inadmissible," Martin Seiler, DB's chief human resources officer, said.
Seiler said that DB had presented an extended offer two days ago in which it had taken a major step toward the union's core demand regarding working hours.
"DB is prepared to compromise. It is now time to negotiate again. The GDL leadership has overreached, it must finally come to its senses," Seiler said in a statement.
DB said it would try to stop the strike with an injunction through a Frankfurt labor court.

GDL union asks for better offer​

The GDL union said in December it planned a strike that would last several days after the Christmas holiday season.
"The DB Group has not used the Christmas truce to counteract industrial action with a negotiable offer," GDL said.
In addition to shorter working hours, GDL is also looking for a pay hike of €555 ($606) per month and an inflation compensation bonus for its members.
Negotiations between the union and Deutsche Bahn broke off at the end of November, with drivers staging a 24-hour strike in December.
DB has flatly rejected the demand for a reduction in working hours due to a labor shortage.
It has instead offered an 11% increase in wages and salaries for a collective agreement term of 32 months.
The GDL has rejected the offer.
rm/lo (Reuters, dpa, AFP)