given £139.50 fare notice due to train breakdown.. Help!

[richardderby]

last night, myself and three friends travelled back from a weekend in blackpool, celebrating my 40th birthday. We had advance tickets on 17.40 from BPN connecting at Manchester picc on to the 19.15 booked as a through journey BPN to EUS. on departure from Blackpool, the train was delayed at Preston, having problems coupling to another train. I spoke to the TPE staff who advised me not to worry, as we would be ok to travel on the next available train from Man Picc, and should stick with our booked route rather than changing at Preston, We left preston 30 late, and ended up on the 19.35 from Man picc.
When the guard checked our tickets he advised us we were not vaild, and would have to pay £139.50 we refused, and explained our situation. He the arranged to have the police and revenue meet the train!. I was and anxious, upset,and tired, and we gave our details and have been served unpaid fares notices for £139.50 each. have contacted TPE who says we have done nothing wrong, and to pay the money and have it refunded on appeal, what shal we do, as a Station Supervisor on the tube, i never want to travel by Virgin trains again in my life, and feel this should never of happened....:cry:

 

[AlterEgo]

Ok - firstly, what tickets did you have exactly? In terms of itinerary - I'm a little confused. I gather you took a train 20 minutes later because of an earlier delay.

Did TPE staff enforse your ticket allowing travel without restrictions?

 

[142094]

As has been said we need to know the type of ticket you held. From reading your post I first thought that you held two advances (BPN -MAN, MAN -EUS) but re-reading it seems you had one ticket for the whole journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

I can see your original train was delayed according TRUST.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As has been said we need to know the type of ticket you held. From reading your post I first thought that you held two advances (BPN -MAN, MAN -EUS) but re-reading it seems you had one ticket for the whole journey.

Irrelevant, with all due respect. This has been clarified with the new Advance Fares FAQs in The Manual. A customer is not to be penalised for splitting their tickets.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Even If the OP hadn't got their tickets endorsed before they boarded the Euston Pendo, I don't see why the TM couldn't contact someone who has the ability to prove/disprove whether there was a delay on the TPE service before you arrived into Euston, or even got staff at Euston to direct you to the ticket office, who could check for you?

Even If the OP had split AP tickets, as long as they allowed sufficient time to change trains at Man Picc, that wouldn't be a problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can see your original train was delayed according TRUST.

Irrelevant, with all due respect. This has been clarified with the new Advance Fares FAQs in The Manual. A customer is not to be penalised for splitting their tickets.

Good

 

[richardderby]

had advance singles blackpool north 17.40 to manchester and manchester to london depart 19.15 booked as one through journey blackpool to london. the staff didnt write anything on the tickets, but i didnt feel the need, and did not forsee the problems with the attitude of the virgin train manager. The staff on TPE were very busy trying to deal with the coupling failure.....
have spoken to TPE customer services who confirmed the delay log, and advised me this is not our fault and the tickets are valid therefore on the next available train. they will send a letter to that affect. Problem is do we pay, or will we need to go to court....

 

[LexyBoy]

As has been said we need to know the type of ticket you held. From reading your post I first thought that you held two advances (BPN -MAN, MAN -EUS) but re-reading it seems you had one ticket for the whole journey.

I think OP had one ticket, but (edit!) either way they are not liable for delays:

Q4. Can a customer buy two advance which join together and form one journey? e.g. ticket for A-B plus ticket for B-C, to travel throughout journey A-C?

A. Yes, provided the train calls at B.

Note 1. Where a passenger buys multiple tickets in this way, if they then have to change their booking, it will also cost them multiple amounts of £10 fee.

Note 2. Where multiple train companies are used A-B and B-C with a change of train and ticket at B, it is still classed as a through journey in the event of delays provided they were booked in accordance with the minimum connectiion times for the station. For example, a passenger travelling Cambridge-Peterborough 'XC only' and Peterbourgh-Leeds 'EC only' is allowed to take the next East Coast service in the event of delay on the Cross Country service causing the connection to be missed.

It's always best to get a ticket endorsed with details of the delay in such circumstances, but is not obligatory.

My advice would be to write to the TOC from whom the UPFN came (Virgin I assume) with details of the exact services you were on. They will be able to look up the details of the journey and confirm that your train was indeed delayed. Certainly don't pay up and appeal as TPE have suggested, this seems a rather strange suggestion to me!

 

[142094]

Irrelevant, with all due respect. This has been clarified with the new Advance Fares FAQs in The Manual. A customer is not to be penalised for splitting their tickets.

This is actually very relevant - we all know that training on ticketing is not what it should be - and have been told that TPE guards get little to no training in issues such as the Routeing Guide. So wouldn't be exactly hard to find a TPE guard who hasn't heard of combining split advances.

 

[AlterEgo]

had advance singles blackpool north 17.40 to manchester and manchester to london depart 19.15 booked as one through journey blackpool to london. the staff didnt write anything on the tickets, but i didnt feel the need, and did not forsee the problems with the attitude of the virgin train manager. The staff on TPE were very busy trying to deal with the coupling failure.....
have spoken to TPE customer services who confirmed the delay log, and advised me this is not our fault and the tickets are valid therefore on the next available train. they will send a letter to that affect. Problem is do we pay, or will we need to go to court....

Hi Richard.

I will PM you very shortly.

 

[142094]

had advance singles blackpool north 17.40 to manchester and manchester to london depart 19.15 booked as one through journey blackpool to london. the staff didnt write anything on the tickets, but i didnt feel the need, and did not forsee the problems with the attitude of the virgin train manager. The staff on TPE were very busy trying to deal with the coupling failure.....
have spoken to TPE customer services who confirmed the delay log, and advised me this is not our fault and the tickets are valid therefore on the next available train. they will send a letter to that affect. Problem is do we pay, or will we need to go to court....

Do not pay anything - much harder to get it back even if you are proven to be correct, as you no doubt will be.

 

[185]

Conductor on TPE should not have to endorse the change of travel plans.

Circumstances do occur where the guard may not be checking tickets.

Most Train Managers on Virgin are some of the best at commonsense thinking on the railway however there are recently more and more exceptions. If the fool from Virgin who charged the excess fare failed to check the delay to the previous journey, said fool (a Euston TM) should never have been promoted into the job in the first place.

 

[richardderby]

unpaid fares notice deal with by a company akin to a wheel clamp firm and NOT virgin trains.... will be happy to go to court, think i will contact BBC watchdog...
WAS BOOKED AS ONE THROUGH TICKET, and NOT a split....

 

[185]

I would go to BBC Watchdog.

Virgin Trains think they are above criticism and their customer services and management have demonstrated this for a long time now. With the franchise coming to an end soon this would be the right time to raise it.

Virgin Trains.... on a par with Moben Kitchens and MFI?

(late turning up and fall apart when they do?)

 

[WestCoast]

unpaid fares notice deal with by a company akin to a wheel clamp firm and NOT virgin trains.... will be happy to go to court, think i will contact BBC watchdog...
WAS BOOKED AS ONE THROUGH TICKET, and NOT a split....

Have you contacted Virgin customer services directly, rather than this other company?

 

[richardderby]

have contacted passenger focus, virgin want me to write to them, and the lady i spoke to this morning was not very helpful, unlike TPE customer services.....

 

[radamfi]

Surely this is clearly an open and shut case?

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

clearly says

"If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey."

Surely Virgin customer services would totally understand the issue and apologise unreservedly for any inconvenience, and offer compensation?

 

[Barrett M95]

This is the conditions of use for an advance ticket on the NR website:

Conditions of use


You must be at the departure station shown on your ticket in good time to catch the train. If you miss the first train on which you are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased.


If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

This tells me that the delay occured while travelling so you should have been able to take the next available train on the route you originally intended.

At least - that's the standpoint I would have used to the Virgin TM.

 

[WestCoast]

I've had a number of cases of being on a "VWC+connections" advance ticket and then missing the booked Virgin train due to a delay on the first leg. The TM was perfectly happy with the reason I gave for being on a train later than booked, on all occasions, and said this could be checked easily.

I really don't know why this has occurred? Surely all guards must know this very important bit of the NRCoC.

 

[AlterEgo]

have contacted passenger focus, virgin want me to write to them, and the lady i spoke to this morning was not very helpful, unlike TPE customer services.....

Which lady is this?

Passenger Focus are mainly an appeals body. They are an ombudsman - not a regulator. They deal with issues where customers complain, and get an unsatisfactory (written) response.

 

[All Line Rover]

Conductor on TPE should not have to endorse the change of travel plans.

Circumstances do occur where the guard may not be checking tickets.

Most Train Managers on Virgin are some of the best at commonsense thinking on the railway however there are recently more and more exceptions. If the fool from Virgin who charged the excess fare failed to check the delay to the previous journey, said fool (a Euston TM) should never have been promoted into the job in the first place.

I agree - most Virgin TM's are excellent (EC ones seem to be too). The one the OP got was probably the one who threatened to call the British Transport Police when we were sitting in an empty First Class carriage with First Class tickets! (alright the tickets said "Standard Anytime", but Virgin treat them as First Class tickets at weekends.)

 

[Tracky]

Calm down and be methodical.

Photo-copy your tickets, reservations, the unpaid fare notice and journey plan if you had one. Send all that with a covering letter to the revenue collection people as on the notice and Virgin customer services. If you have a written response from Trans Pennine send that too.

If you can do it by E mail with atached documents, all the better (but i'd post a copy too) and I am sure it will get sorted fairly easily.

Obviously the Train manager should have acted with more common sense, but these things happen for whatever reason. The most important thing is to sort it quickly.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Based on the information presented by the OP, particularly that the tickets were booked for the through journey involving the two TOCs, then I have no hesitation in advising that the OP (and fellow passengers) do NOT pay the UPFN and simply send a letter to VT Commercial Manager enclosing copies of the tickets and/or print-out of the itinery and copies of the UPFNs, explaining the facts of the TPE delay and the subsequent VT journey. This letter does not need to be any more than a statement of the facts and advising VT that the UPFN will not be paid due to the allowance in the CoC for delays caused during connecting journeys.

The OP is also at liberty to make a complaint to Virgin, Passenger Focus or other body, but I wouldn't confuse that with the simple message above that the UPFNs will not be paid.

In the extremely unlikey event that VT reject that statement, I and others here will be willing to assist in ensuring that the claim is quashed.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is very important that Virgin know about what happened to you - otherwise how can they be expected to fix things for you? The staff member concerned may need retraining, for example.

 

[All Line Rover]

It is very important that Virgin know about what happened to you - otherwise how can they be expected to fix things for you? The staff member concerned may need retraining, for example.

Or may need to be fired. There are one or two very arrogant Virgin TM's out there, y'know, and in my opinion they should not have such a job.

 

[island]

This is an open and shut case; the Virgin TM should not be issuing a UPFN and I very strongly suspect Virgin will be easily prevailed upon to cancel the notice, and you may well get some rail travel vouchers thrown your way as well if you make the point well.

 

[radamfi]

Would the guard get commission for this? Commission from the high priced sale of an Anytime single would certainly give a strong incentive to pretend that the ticket was invalid.

 

[LexyBoy]

Would the guard get commission for this? Commission from the high priced sale of an Anytime single would certainly give a strong incentive to pretend that the ticket was invalid.

Not for a UPFN, no.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Would the guard get commission for this? Commission from the high priced sale of an Anytime single would certainly give a strong incentive to pretend that the ticket was invalid.

Only if the UPFN is paid, yes. Not if it is appealed and thrown out or not paid for whatever reason.

 

[radamfi]

But I presume the guard would be hoping that the passenger just pays up, which presumably a lot of passengers do, especially if they are scared by the UPFN.

 

[Ferret]

But I presume the guard would be hoping that the passenger just pays up, which presumably a lot of passengers do, especially if they are scared by the UPFN.

That's possible. I suspect this is a classic case of the TM failing to engage brain before acting. I'm sure a reasonable conversation with VT's customer service people will fix things.