From memory, which may well be wrong, MKC is London Midland and WFJ is London Overground.
Edit: They're both LM actually.
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given £139.50 fare notice due to train breakdown.. Help!
- Thread starter richardderby
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From memory, which may well be wrong, MKC is London Midland and WFJ is London Overground.
Edit: They're both LM actually.
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Watford Junction is LM actually.
What I was not sure on was if Virgin provide a few of their own staff at these stations, like they do at NR managed stations. I am really not sure.
MKC definitely does - Virgin dispatch their own services, and there's sometimes a member of Virgin staff on the gateline
Not really.
They have phones and get emails about delays to their own TOC, but any other TOC wouldn't be shown, unless it affects the "home" TOC. Telephoning about delays to other services I would say isn't something I would want the train manager to be doing, as I'd prefer them to be checking tickets, monitoring, making sure I am safe. Yes, customer service in that respect isn't really at it's best but the TM has a lot more to think about.
What you need to understand is that:
- Virgin have used the "gesture of goodwill" phrase. This is a phrase to say "it is finished" and if you take it further, it doesn't say you are to blame, nor does it say Virgin are to blame either, so it sort of covers everybody's bums.
- You got your money back / didn't have to pay, so what are you moaning at now? Maybe I missed it that you didn't.
- Yes, the way Virgin have acted may have been not as desired, but move on and treat it as a bad experience.
- Surely as a member of LUL, you should have been a bit more savvy to tickets and restrictions and known not to just take the word of another TOC (IE, TPE over Virgin). In an extension to this, I would have asked the TM upon boarding to see if it was valid.
- Virgin are probably aware of this thread and therefore relationships between "enthusiasts" and Virgin may be damaged somewhat.
Just what I see.
Haven't read the whole thread but considering how many pages it is now, it seems to have been blown right out of proportion.
The point is they ignored the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the conditions of the tickets they sold, which is extremely serious and can't just be dismissed with an e-mail.
The CEO also said in these circumstances that the ticket has to be endorsed by Virgin staff prior to travel, which isn't in the NRCoC or the conditions of the ticket. So what are you going to do when there is no time or the station you are boarding at is staffed by another operator?
All questions that have come out of this, this isn't a customer service issue anymore. It's opened up a can of worms!
The CEO also said in these circumstances that the ticket has to be endorsed by Virgin staff prior to travel, which isn't in the NRCoC or the conditions of the ticket. So what are you going to do when there is no time or the station you are boarding at is staffed by another operator?
All questions that have come out of this, this isn't a customer service issue anymore. It's opened up a can of worms!
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I once got a goodwill gesture refund after complaining about a (old-type, insert coin and rotate) parking meter that was broken, as in you put coins in and it didn't register anything. I took photos of the meter at the time and stated exactly how much had been put in (before obviously I gave up and parked somewhere else).
They insisted the meters couldn't go wrong and the collector had not reported any extra money in the cashbox (funny that!) - so in effect they were accusing me of making it all up.
Now if they were so sure I was making it up on the basis that a meter couldn't fail and they'd even checked, why offer a goodwill gesture? Clearly they knew meters could fail (just like cash machines can) but didn't want to admit it. I very much doubt they spoke to anyone who collected from that specific meter either, as they'd have emptied the cash box on loads of meters in quick succession.
I wish I'd taken things further, but I got my money back and was lazy - so they got away with it. I am sure many other people got ripped off from this meter and never complained at all.
They insisted the meters couldn't go wrong and the collector had not reported any extra money in the cashbox (funny that!) - so in effect they were accusing me of making it all up.
Now if they were so sure I was making it up on the basis that a meter couldn't fail and they'd even checked, why offer a goodwill gesture? Clearly they knew meters could fail (just like cash machines can) but didn't want to admit it. I very much doubt they spoke to anyone who collected from that specific meter either, as they'd have emptied the cash box on loads of meters in quick succession.
I wish I'd taken things further, but I got my money back and was lazy - so they got away with it. I am sure many other people got ripped off from this meter and never complained at all.
That is not my interpretation of the "gesture of goodwill" phrase.
I take Virgin's reply as a threat to charge future passengers. You may not care about that, but many of us do. I am grateful to the OP for pursuing this, for the benefit of future passengers if nothing else.
The term "not as desired" does not adequately describe this behaviour, in my opinion. We can agree to disagree on that.
I do not think Virgin will "move on" when people break the rules, and I have heard of Virgin prosecuting people for breaking rules. Therefore, when Virgin act incorrectly, why should we accept that?!
What are you going on about?! This statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The OP acted entirely correctly. I suggest that perhaps you could be "a bit more savvy to tickets and restrictions", and perhaps you should know that there is no requirement to get permission to board a train when you are late. Well, you certainly should if you are to come on this forum acting as if you believe someone has acted incorrectly. If you are not savvy, then fine, don't pretend to be an expert here!
You can do what you want! It was valid, and if a train with 400 passengers had everyone asking if their (already valid) tickets were valid, the train would be rather delayed. If your ticket is valid, there is absolutely no need to ask if it is valid!
I am not sure what you are trying to say, but Virgin have damaged relationships between themselves and some of their customers.
Ah, the old "I haven't read the whole thread" argument! Do you go up to people in mid-conversation, without knowing what they have already concluded and start lecturing someone saying they are wrong? I suspect not, so why do it here?
I must say I'm quite surprised at Tony Collins as I thought he was a bit more savvy! Since when has there been any requirement to get a ticket endorsed in the event of a delay?! Sure, some pax will ask you to and I'd never refuse as I know it provides reassurance, but it's not always practical to ask a member of staff to do that!
Not convinced it needs escalating to Passenger Focus, though I do think a letter back to Tony Collins asking him what he's going on about would be entirely appropriate!
Not convinced it needs escalating to Passenger Focus, though I do think a letter back to Tony Collins asking him what he's going on about would be entirely appropriate!
Statto
Established Member
Err, they are all subject to the same ticket conditions aren't they? It's one through ticket, all TOCs accept the rules. "Taking one TOCs word" would be an entirely appropriate thing to do, since it was the correct advice!!
They should all being "singing from the same hymn sheet" and if they are not, problems like this occur. I personally would've given Virgin a major headache over this, even if it meant being very awkward towards the guard, who acted very inappropriately. He could see that this person had a through ticket from Blackpool North, it seems idiotic!
Statto
Established Member
Well if you bothered reading the OPs, original post & thread, he said he was given an UFPN on a Virgin service, using an Advance Purchase + Connections ticket, although the OP wasn't on the Booked train, as his connecting train he was on was delayed on route, it does state on the T&C of Advance Purchase tickets that
If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.
The gesture of goodwill from the VT CEO, implies the OP was in the wrong, & should not of used the ticket, the VT CEO forgets the T&C on AP tickets If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.
In this case the criticism of VT is justified, they've handeled this quite badly.
Sorry to nitpick, but it does not matter whether it is one ticket, or more than one ticket.
Agreed. But whenever a claim is made that appears to suggest that it was okay because it was a through ticket, I am going to make it clear that is not actually the case, and that it's okay regardless of how many tickets were used. Otherwise, someone reading that, may think having a though ticket is a requirement. It isn't.Yes that's true, but I think that's been covered before sufficiently though...
It just makes you think that if this a guard got it this wrong with a through ticket (which should have clear cut case), what would he have done in the case of two separate tickets? It shouldn't matter as you say, but I have to wonder.
The guard would have still acted incorrectly. Virgin would have still issued a "gesture of goodwill" and they'd still be wrong. So nothing different in this case.
I always advise people in this situation to hand over no money. An unpaid fare notice can be appealed and refusal to pay will not be a problem in a case like this. Getting your money back can be much harder.
ChrisCooper
Established Member
I wonder what "whhistle" thinks that the OP should have done differently? The OP did ask the TPE guard what to do and was told that he should change at Picadilly as planned and get the next available train, so should the OP have assumed that the TPE guard was an idiot who didn't have a clue what he was talking about and asked someone else?
He talks about asking the guard before boarding, for a start that can be easier said than done on a long train as the guard will be going around checking tickets so could be anywhere. Also in this case the guard would have presumably said the ticket wasn't valid and the OP would need to get a new one. The OP would have then had to go and get a ticket which he didn't need, probably paying quite a lot for it (infact it would probably have been the same he got charged on the train). That's assuming that he had the money to pay, if not then what? Everyone doesn't have access instantly to large amounts of money, especially younger people who might not have credit cards and overdafts, or older people who might not have cards. Are they then stranded? If they explain the situation to the ticket office staff they might say it's not true that they need another ticket, in which case the OP is then probably left very annoyed and waiting for the next train. Hopefully at very least their ticket is now endorsed so they won't get the same problem again!
It wouldn't be so bad but it's companies like Virgin who encorage people to use cheap advanced tickets, infact I think it's been said many times before that if Virgin had their way then all tickets would have to be booked in advance. The walk on fares are so high that people often don't have a choice about booking in advance. It's bad enough booking in advance and worrying if you'll miss the train for none rail reasons, let alone problems on the railways too! Most people though will leave extra time for getting too the station when on advanced tickets so they don't miss them and have to pay more, but are people expected to build time into their connections too to cover delays (beyond the minimum connections that are published).
Going back to the "gesture of goodwill", IMHO that applies when companies go above and beyond what is expected. I've had a few times when TOCs have given compensation for delays that has gone beyond the minimum required as a gesture of goodwill. Heavily criticised Central Trains were particularly good for that, including paying out one time when it was a gas leak that delayed the train so they could rightly have not done so (like Virgin did when I was delayed 2 hours due to a fatality, now paying out something then would have been a "gesture of goodwill", especially since my trip was ruined).
He talks about asking the guard before boarding, for a start that can be easier said than done on a long train as the guard will be going around checking tickets so could be anywhere. Also in this case the guard would have presumably said the ticket wasn't valid and the OP would need to get a new one. The OP would have then had to go and get a ticket which he didn't need, probably paying quite a lot for it (infact it would probably have been the same he got charged on the train). That's assuming that he had the money to pay, if not then what? Everyone doesn't have access instantly to large amounts of money, especially younger people who might not have credit cards and overdafts, or older people who might not have cards. Are they then stranded? If they explain the situation to the ticket office staff they might say it's not true that they need another ticket, in which case the OP is then probably left very annoyed and waiting for the next train. Hopefully at very least their ticket is now endorsed so they won't get the same problem again!
It wouldn't be so bad but it's companies like Virgin who encorage people to use cheap advanced tickets, infact I think it's been said many times before that if Virgin had their way then all tickets would have to be booked in advance. The walk on fares are so high that people often don't have a choice about booking in advance. It's bad enough booking in advance and worrying if you'll miss the train for none rail reasons, let alone problems on the railways too! Most people though will leave extra time for getting too the station when on advanced tickets so they don't miss them and have to pay more, but are people expected to build time into their connections too to cover delays (beyond the minimum connections that are published).
Going back to the "gesture of goodwill", IMHO that applies when companies go above and beyond what is expected. I've had a few times when TOCs have given compensation for delays that has gone beyond the minimum required as a gesture of goodwill. Heavily criticised Central Trains were particularly good for that, including paying out one time when it was a gas leak that delayed the train so they could rightly have not done so (like Virgin did when I was delayed 2 hours due to a fatality, now paying out something then would have been a "gesture of goodwill", especially since my trip was ruined).
It is no wonder that companies like Virgin are so keen on Advance tickets. The advantages are many:
They often get more revenue by not sharing it with any (or so many) other TOC's
If someone can't travel, they keep the money
If someone changes a journey they charge a fee
If someone gets on the wrong train they can try and charge them again. On some occasions they might get away with it.
Where I have worked, the phrase has been commonly used we have not made a mistake, but we will refund the customer anyway, even though we are not obligated to do so.
Aren't you thinking of "without prejudice"?
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
"Without prejudice" is used in the course of negotiations to indicate that a particular conversation or letter cannot be tendered as evidence in court.
Thanks to Wiki for the wording - was having problems thinking of the correct explanation!
That's how I understand it. I've just had one from T-Mobile, refunding me some charges for using the internet abroad which should never have happened because you are supposed to pay in advance. Clearly their fault but they haven't admitted that.
Having read this thread, I've just emailed them back to ask if they would please admit they are in the wrong so that I don't get stung again next time!
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