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Glasgow Subway new stock

Russel

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Apologies if there is already a thread on this. I didn't see one, which surprises me, the Glasgow Subway seems to be the forgotten light rail system in the UK.

Is there a rough date the new Glasgow Subway stock is due to enter service and when it does, is it planned to be full replacement in one go or will there be an overlap with old and new stock working together?
 
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hexagon789

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Apologies if there is already a thread on this. I didn't see one, which surprises me, the Glasgow Subway seems to be the forgotten light rail system in the UK.

Is there a rough date the new Glasgow Subway stock is due to enter service and when it does, is it planned to be full replacement in one go or will there be an overlap with old and new stock working together?
There was a thread, but with so little progress it went quiet: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/glasgow-subway-new-driverless-trains.210196/

The most recent news I read said that mid-2024 was the new date for entry of the new stock to passenger service.
 

InOban

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The subway was closed today, and I think some further Sundays, for resignalling for the new trains.
 

DanNCL

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What on earth is taking them so long to get these into service? The first one was exhibited at InnoTrans more than four years ago, and now we're looking at another 18 months before one enters service, so 6 years between going on display at InnoTrans and entering passenger service.
 

Russel

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Thanks for the replys all, I was going to sort a trip up to Glasgow out over the next couple of months to have a ride on the old stock before they go, now it seems there isn't a need to rush!
 

nicholaswood

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There was a thread, but with so little progress it went quiet: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/glasgow-subway-new-driverless-trains.210196/

The most recent news I read said that mid-2024 was the new date for entry of the new stock to passenger service.

There was a video posted on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/tran...sgow-subway-activity-7001534899518111744-YOPY) from Transport Scotland that says the trains will enter service in the second half of 2023, with driverless running being possible from 2025.
 

pdeaves

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What on earth is taking them so long to get these into service? The first one was exhibited at InnoTrans more than four years ago, and now we're looking at another 18 months before one enters service, so 6 years between going on display at InnoTrans and entering passenger service.
Preparing the infrastructure, I believe.
 

duncanp

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It seems that the new stock can't come soon enough, given that the existing system is more than 40 years old.

This has echos of the London Underground in the late 1980s/early 1990s, when similar issues caused widespread disruption.


Glasgow Subway service disrupted one in every five days in 2022​


The Glasgow Subway system suffered disruption on one in every five days in 2022, a Herald investigation can reveal, leading to claims that it is inadequate and antiquated.


The underground light metro system, the third oldest in the world, suffered a total of 75 days of disruption last year, which equates to around 20 per cent of the days it operated.
The disruption ranged from full or partial closures of the Inner and Outer circles to closures of one or a number of the network’s 15 stations.

Factors involved in the disruption to Glasgow Subway services last year included broken down trains, signal faults, power failures, local power outages, weather conditions (ice freezing the depot yard), police incidents, ‘operational issues’, water ingress, alarm activations and staff diversions ‘to assist football traffic’.

‘Operational issues’ caused the most disruption to services on the underground network in 2022, resulting in services being unable to operate as normal on a total of 43 days last year due to closures to one or multiple stations.

Broken down trains caused the second highest amount of disruption to the network by forcing the suspension of either one or both the Inner and Outer Circles on a total of 13 days last year.

The entire Subway network was also closed completely on two days in 2022 due to ‘continued Subway modernisation works’.

The revelations come less than two weeks after a major signalling fault caused Glasgow Subway services to be suspended three times in one day.

Subway users took to social media to air their anger and frustration at the disruption, with one person labelling it “an absolute shambles”.

Responding to the Herald’s investigation, Glasgow MSP Paul Sweeney said it highlights “just how inadequate” Glasgow’s Subway is and how much people who use the network “are being let down”.

He said: “These findings from the Herald’s investigation shine a light on just how inadequate Glasgow’s Subway is, how desperately we need to upgrade and modernise its infrastructure, and the extent to which the travelling public in Glasgow are being let down. Anyone who uses the Subway knows that these problems exist and that the so-called modernisation programme has been moving at a glacial pace for well over a decade, so the fact well-paid officials at SPT preside over these failures happening time and time again is unacceptable and utterly intolerable.

“We are the biggest city in Scotland, with the largest population yet we have the most antiquated public transport infrastructure. That needs to change, and what better place to start than with an integrated ticketing system and full integration with the wider Glasgow Metro project to bring us into line with other cities of equivalent size across Europe.”

A spokesperson for Strathclyde Partnership for Transport (SPT), which runs Glasgow Subway, said: “The Subway carries around 40,000 people daily and is an integral part of the transport network in Glasgow. We are very aware of the impact on our passengers when services are disrupted for any length of time or for whatever reason. These can vary from train breakdowns, signalling and power failures, and other operational issues as well as passenger incidents requiring assistance from colleagues in the emergency services. We’ve also had a number of scheduled shutdowns on Sundays to allow intensive work on the modernisation of the system to continue.


“The current system has been operating for more than 40 years and is unfortunately approaching end of life. We satisfy 95% of our timetabled service, in part due to the work and dedication of our engineering and maintenance staff to keep the whole system running, and despite many challenges including sourcing parts and equipment. New Subway trains will be in service later this year and installation of our new signalling system is also underway.

“We apologise to all our passengers for any disruptions they have experienced which are often only for a short time. This falls short of the service all our staff would wish to provide.”
 

hexagon789

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I imagine parts obsolescence is as much an issue for the 1970s ATO system as it is for the trains now.
 

Metro95

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Apologies if there is already a thread on this. I didn't see one, which surprises me, the Glasgow Subway seems to be the forgotten light rail system in the UK.

Is there a rough date the new Glasgow Subway stock is due to enter service and when it does, is it planned to be full replacement in one go or will there be an overlap with old and new stock working together?
The Glasgow Subway is a rapid transit system, not a light rail system.
 

duncanp

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It was officially called "The Underground" when I lived in Scotland in the 1980s.

Every station had a large "U" sign outside, rather like the roundel you see for the tube in London.

I recall there was no regular Sunday service until the Glasgow Garden Festival in 1988, and that services on other days of the week finished comparatively early, at around 10pm.

Having only recently been refurbished, the system was shiny and new compared to the rather grotty London Underground at the time, but like all systems it is now showing its age.

Interesting that the refurbishment of the system in the late 1970s didn't include full accessiblity for wheelchairs, and even now the current refurbishment doesn't include full accessiblity. I realise that, like the London Underground, the design of some stations would make the provision of full disabled access difficult, if not impossible.

By the time of the construction of the Docklands Light Railway in the mid 1980s, the provision of full accessibility for wheelchairs was regarded as standard for all new transport networks.
 

hexagon789

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It was officially called "The Underground" when I lived in Scotland in the 1980s.

Every station had a large "U" sign outside, rather like the roundel you see for the tube in London.
It was renamed 'Underground' when the Glasgow Corporation took it over and remained such until SPT reverted it back to the original 'Subway' title and removed the 'U' signs in favour of the stylised 'S' logo.

Interesting that the refurbishment of the system in the late 1970s didn't include full accessiblity for wheelchairs, and even now the current refurbishment doesn't include full accessiblity. I realise that, like the London Underground, the design of some stations would make the provision of full disabled access difficult, if not impossible
Probably the cost at the time.

St Enoch and Govan are both now fully accessible (they both have lifts from street to platform level), which while not a perfect solution (given the other 13 have only mixed escalator and stair access) is at least useful for some journeys by persons in wheelchairs but that was only relatively recently achieved with specially constructed lifts for the locations, which of course cost more than off-the-shelf designs.
 

Strathclyder

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It was renamed 'Underground' when the Glasgow Corporation took it over and remained such until SPT reverted it back to the original 'Subway' title and removed the 'U' signs in favour of the stylised 'S' logo.
Yep, this renaming back to 'Subway' occurred in 2003. Despite it's 1936 renaming to 'Underground' by the Glasgow Corporation, it never really caught on with Glaswegians who still continued to refer to it as the Subway. A bit surprising in light of this that it took until 2003 for the name to officially switch back.

I've never known anyone call it that other than the media and certain enthusiasts who seem to erroneously think it is in common usage as a nickname.

Really almost everyone just calls it the Subway, simple as that.
The origin of the Clockwork Orange nickname is disputed. Some think the media at the time of the system's modernization first coined the phrase, while others - mostly select enthusiasts - think it was first coined by then-BR chairman Sir Peter Parker (or another high-ranking BR official), who was quoted as saying in a publicity video showcasing a mockup of the new Metro-Cammell trains: 'so this is going to be the original Clockwork Orange' (see attached video below). I don't buy that it was first coined when the Stanley Kubrick film adaption of the 1962 novel came out in 1971, as the system was still 6 years away from closure/modernization in '71.


But in reality, this nickname is hardly, if ever used by us Glaswegians despite it cropping up in tourist handbooks and local literature fairly often. Virtually everyone just calls it the Subway.

It's not even that orange! ;)
It's more of a reddish shade of orange. ;)
 

haggishunter

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Good timing for a subway thread cause I’m going to have a wee rant. How many Labour era brown envelopes were funded by this project that is now in its 12th year !!

Got a lift to Shields Road P&R with a mate who needed to charge his EV while we went for lunch - the charger there was available even if it looked like it had been there since before the discovery of electricity.

So the P&R park and ride subway ticket. They’ve modernised the parking to ANPR.

So you have to go the manned ticket office, tell the ticket clerk your reg number, they jot it down with a pen on paper and every so often toddle off somewhere else and bang a few reg plates in the computer.

Along with vending machines that don’t take contactless, gate readers that can’t read contactless because the chips for the narrowband frequency used saved a few quid, complete incompatibility with paper ScotRail tickets, which (said paper ticket from a staffed ticket office) inexplicably remain the only way to buy a subway/ScotRail roundabout ticket!

Just stop, get the SPT clowns out and put adults in charge. Rip out the ****, put Oyster or something proven in. And in the name of something Holy do not allow any part of SPT near a new Clyde metro.
 

Russel

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Good timing for a subway thread cause I’m going to have a wee rant. How many Labour era brown envelopes were funded by this project that is now in its 12th year !!

Got a lift to Shields Road P&R with a mate who needed to charge his EV while we went for lunch - the charger there was available even if it looked like it had been there since before the discovery of electricity.

So the P&R park and ride subway ticket. They’ve modernised the parking to ANPR.

So you have to go the manned ticket office, tell the ticket clerk your reg number, they jot it down with a pen on paper and every so often toddle off somewhere else and bang a few reg plates in the computer.

Along with vending machines that don’t take contactless, gate readers that can’t read contactless because the chips for the narrowband frequency used saved a few quid, complete incompatibility with paper ScotRail tickets, which (said paper ticket from a staffed ticket office) inexplicably remain the only way to buy a subway/ScotRail roundabout ticket!

Just stop, get the SPT clowns out and put adults in charge. Rip out the ****, put Oyster or something proven in. And in the name of something Holy do not allow any part of SPT near a new Clyde metro.

I remember the first time I used the Subway after the new barriers and ticketing system had been launched, as someone who is used to putting paper tickets into a slot within the barrier, it really did confuse me trying to work out where to slot it in!
 

hexagon789

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Yep, this renaming back to 'Subway' occurred in 2003. Despite it's 1936 renaming to 'Underground' by the Glasgow Corporation, it never really caught on with Glaswegians who still continued to refer to it as the Subway. A bit surprising in light of this that it took until 2003 for the name to officially switch back.
2003 is later than I thought, certainly I don't recall anything other than 'Subway' branding.

It's more of a reddish shade of orange. ;)
Strathclyde Red...? <D
 

duncanp

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Are there any plans to expand the operating hours once all the new trains have been delivered, particularly on Sundays, where 10am to 6pm seems a bit of an anachronism?
 

hexagon789

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Are there any plans to expand the operating hours once all the new trains have been delivered, particularly on Sundays, where 10am to 6pm seems a bit of an anachronism?
Not that I'm aware of, they will still require station and control room staff after the trains go driverless and doing 10-6 on Sundays allows for operations to be covered by just one shift.

It also allows for most heavy maintenance to be done on Sunday evenings/nights without disrupting the following days service.
 

duncanp

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10am to 6pm is honestly laughable.

Whilst I understand the need for engineering works, is it really necessary to have such short opening hours on a Sunday?

After all, the London Underground has a similar need for engineering work, and yet they can manage with only slightly reduced hours on a Sunday, with services starting about an hour later and finishing an hour earlier.

Surely something like 8am to 10pm ought to be possible in Glasgow on a Sunday, and whilst that would entail more than one shift, the subway is there to serve the people of Glasgow, and should be open for as long as there is sufficient demand.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Whilst I understand the need for engineering works, is it really necessary to have such short opening hours on a Sunday?

After all, the London Underground has a similar need for engineering work, and yet they can manage with only slightly reduced hours on a Sunday, with services starting about an hour later and finishing an hour earlier.

Surely something like 8am to 10pm ought to be possible in Glasgow on a Sunday, and whilst that would entail more than one shift, the subway is there to serve the people of Glasgow, and should be open for as long as there is sufficient demand.
Genuinely, I think 10-6 is insulting to the people of Glasgow, it really is. Only slightly pacified by the Metro-like frequency and service of the Argyle/North Clyde lines.
 

duncanp

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Genuinely, I think 10-6 is insulting to the people of Glasgow, it really is. Only slightly pacified by the Metro-like frequency and service of the Argyle/North Clyde lines.

Yes, if suburban trains and buses run until late evening on Sunday in Glasgow, it makes it difficult to justify closing the subway at 6pm.
 

Strathclyder

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Extend the opening hours on Sundays thusly after full ATO operation is bedded in with the new trains: 8am to 10pm. IMO, the present 10am-6pm anachronism should've been kicked into the long grass a long time ago and has been a significant hamper on the Subway's usefulness for far too long and the justifications SPT wheel out to justify not getting shot of it just don't hold water anymore.

Genuinely, I think 10-6 is insulting to the people of Glasgow, it really is. Only slightly pacified by the Metro-like frequency and service of the Argyle/North Clyde lines.
On Sundays, the only section of those lines that has something even resembling metro frequency is Hyndland-Partick, with trains from all 3 of the line's western termini (Helensburgh, Balloch & Milngavie) converging on that section before splitting off again at Finnieston. On my local parts of the North Clyde/Argyle Line (the Singer, Yoker & Milngavie branches), half-hourly service is the order of the day on Sunday and has been for as long as I can remember.

Of course, they run well into the night much like they do any other day of the week (a distinct edge over the Subway there as things presently stand), but I'm merely seeking to emphasize that both lines' overall service frequency as a whole is noticeably less on Sundays than what it is on Mondays-Saturdays, much the same as the rest of the network.
 

whoosh

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It seems that the new stock can't come soon enough, given that the existing system is more than 40 years old.

This has echos of the London Underground in the late 1980s/early 1990s, when similar issues caused widespread disruption.


It has echos of the Glasgow system itself before it closed for modernisation at the end of the '70s. Breakdowns were frequent, and IIRC the special last day was cancelled when a crack appeared in a wall at platform level at one of the stations.


10am to 6pm on Sundays allows staff to work the Sunday and come back on earlies on the Monday. Maybe even work an afternoon on the preceding Saturday too.
 

duncanp

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10am to 6pm on Sundays allows staff to work the Sunday and come back on earlies on the Monday. Maybe even work an afternoon on the preceding Saturday too.

Is the Glasgow Subway there to serve the people of Glasgow, or for the convenience of the staff?

If other metro and light rail systems can provide a service for the whole day on Sunday, why is this such a problem in Glasgow?
 

D6130

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Is the Glasgow Subway there to serve the people of Glasgow, or for the convenience of the staff?
There is a legal requirement for train drivers to have a minimum of twelve hours rest between finishing one shift and starting the next....as on main line trains.
 

the sniper

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Is the Glasgow Subway there to serve the people of Glasgow, or for the convenience of the staff?

It's not for the convenience of staff, it's seemingly for the convenience of the operator, not having to employ more staff...
 

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