GN are penalty faring in overcrowded 387s

[Failed Unit]

A few have wondered if GN are penalty faring in the "1st" on the 387s

Answer is yes - have one.

View of the RPI - who was very good is appeal it.

They agreed that the coach wasn't well labelled and that you never know where first class is going to be. But they are getting a lot of complaints from 1st class passengers that the accommodation is generally ignored. Agree again that the reduction in seats is the main factor and the level of abuse is much lower on the 365s and 317s.

First fact is i am bang to rights. But is it worth making some noise on this. More to highlight the current situation with the 387s is not acceptable rather than dispute the PF. Many passengers commented they have no clue where to stand now. I will get it back by delay repay anyway - just claim every single 15 mins.

Btw. Only posting this as a few on the forum are interested if GN are really going to PF a coach where there is no difference in seats and labels. (Someone has even nicked the "first class white things from the seat back).

 

[gray1404]

I am sorry to hear that this has happened to you. My understanding is that an RPI should use their discretion. If he by his own omission agreed that it wasn't well labelled then he should have applied his discretion. This is much easier then you having to appeal afterwards. You should appeal it if you can find grounds to.

 

[Hadders]

A few have wondered if GN are penalty faring in the "1st" on the 387s

Answer is yes - have one.

View of the RPI - who was very good is appeal it.

They agreed that the coach wasn't well labelled and that you never know where first class is going to be. But they are getting a lot of complaints from 1st class passengers that the accommodation is generally ignored. Agree again that the reduction in seats is the main factor and the level of abuse is much lower on the 365s and 317s.

First fact is i am bang to rights. But is it worth making some noise on this. More to highlight the current situation with the 387s is not acceptable rather than dispute the PF. Many passengers commented they have no clue where to stand now. I will get it back by delay repay anyway - just claim every single 15 mins.

Btw. Only posting this as a few on the forum are interested if GN are really going to PF a coach where there is no difference in seats and labels. (Someone has even nicked the "first class white things from the seat back).

If the RPI genuinely said that the coach wasn't well labelled I'd be insisting they write that down on the Penalty Fare paperwork or notes they took to assist with any appeal.

 

[Failed Unit]

Have taken photos of the fact the seats are indistinguishable from the rest of the coach. I am a regular know the score with these trains. Just needed this to demonstrate to GTR the current situation in terms of labels and notifications is not acceptable. Btw. You can stand in first on 387s according to RPI.

 

[yorkie]

If GTR want to be able to enforce 1st class they should be forced to differentiate it between Standard.

As it is, it looks exactly the same as Standard, and that is unacceptable.

Sadly the DfT are happy for this ridiculous situation to arise, indeed I believe they are at least partially to blame for it. They are not known as the DafT for nothing!

 

[furlong]

Checklist: that the service was timetabled as offering 1st class; that the requisite 1st class notice was visible and used a correct form of words; that the service was not severely disrupted; that you are not elderly or pregnant; that the paperwork you were given fully complied with the rules; that the station at which you joined the train had ticketing facilities available capable of selling the 1st class ticket/excess/permit to travel you needed and had compliant warning signs which could be clearly seen by anyone joining the train etc. etc.

The threshold train companies have to meet to be allowed to charge a penalty fare is rightly set pretty high - they have to get everything right all the time.

 

[Failed Unit]

The argument i will use.

Board on coach 1 - door 1. Standard class. Walk down train through open interconnection door. No label on door or any of the seats. As the seats look the same how is the average person supposed to know?

I do of course - I use those trains every day this is more a matter of principle and a test to see if GTR will PF. The coach side has a yellow stripe. But no good if you board at the front door as it is standard class. No announcement at Finsbury Park saying "first class is at front". As it changes daily no-one knows where it is going to be. On other TOC such an interconnection door is labelled (and the seats are clearly different aka 365 / 317 / 321)

The other question is if the appeal is successful will GTR get any comeback to force them to do what they should have done day 1 label the train correctly. I feel sorry for innocent victims rather than people like myself who just took the PF prove GTR are fining poorly labelled first class coaches.

 

[yorkie]

Could you take photos or a video? This could be useful evidence.

 

[Failed Unit]

Could you take photos or a video? This could be useful evidence.

Other passengers took photos. They are sending me copies.

 

[bb21]

Having not used them since they went over to Great Northern, what is their setup for First Class? Which part of the train and how are they normally labelled?

 

[Failed Unit]

Having not used them since they went over to Great Northern, what is their setup for First Class? Which part of the train and how are they normally labelled?

The 365s no change. Label on dividing door.
317s no change with labels on entrance and clear difference in seat.
387s. Yellow strip externally. No labels on entering from coach 2 or front of coach 1. "First class" on seats if they are not removed by annoyed passengers (they were tonight). Positioned on 2nd door (rear bogie) of coach 1. No idea if it will turn up at the London end or the country end. No labels in train on some (like tonight) easy to miss label in others. No number 1 on the external windows like many other TOCs use.

 

[D365]

Having not used them since they went over to Great Northern, what is their setup for First Class? Which part of the train and how are they normally labelled?

From what I gather, the Class 387s are not normally labelled!

 

[Joe Paxton]

Curious, did this thread start off with a different title? (or am I mis-remembering things... just as likely!)

 

[jon0844]

I have photos and video of the inside of 'first class'. It's basically antimacassars that will be hidden if seats are taken, and GTRs own little stickers. No '1' or 'first class' stickers on doors, windows etc. Nor anything to warn that the vestibule that wasn't marked from the outside is first class.

The 700s are well marked and the doorway can't be locked open. Even on a 365, there's no longer proper markings if you have a compartment with the entry door locked open.

Look at the 387 on GN thread for loads of comments, including admissions from RPIs ages ago that it was unacceptable.

I get that people who do pay for first class are upset, but GTR absolutely must out clear signs up so there can be no doubt. The purple stickers with loads of text do not count. I'm not even sure the size of the text would comply, and they're in no way obvious unless you're standing right next to one and take the time to read the content.

 

[jon0844]

Have taken photos of the fact the seats are indistinguishable from the rest of the coach. I am a regular know the score with these trains. Just needed this to demonstrate to GTR the current situation in terms of labels and notifications is not acceptable. Btw. You can stand in first on 387s according to RPI.

I would expect staff to have varying opinions on that. GTR should clarify this in an official capacity, but really it should skip all that and drop any PFs or other charges until it has put up clear signage inside and out. That includes all doors that take you into first class.

It's not much better on the 377s where you can walk through from one set to another and end up in first without knowing. Ironically, there are signs saying when you can sit in what was first - but nothing in the real first class!

 

[Failed Unit]

Curious, did this thread start off with a different title? (or am I mis-remembering things... just as likely!)

No. Debate in the class 387 thread. People were wondering if an RPI would enforce it or not? We have the answer. Will put compliant into GTR later along with appeal. Just need to be careful about the wording as I have no issue with the RPI doing their job. Just the poor labelling, position of accommodation etc from main thread. Don't want the RPI getting issues because of GTR policy.

 

[Hadders]

No. Debate in the class 387 thread. People were wondering if an RPI would enforce it or not? We have the answer. Will put compliant into GTR later along with appeal. Just need to be careful about the wording as I have no issue with the RPI doing their job. Just the poor labelling, position of accommodation etc from main thread. Don't want the RPI getting issues because of GTR policy.

It surely can't be GTR policy to PF passengers where the labelling of 1st Class is insufficient. If that's what happened then the RPI was wrong, however nice he was at the time of the incident.

 

[Failed Unit]

It surely can't be GTR policy to PF passengers where the labelling of 1st Class is insufficient. If that's what happened then the RPI was wrong, however nice he was at the time of the incident.

Unfortunately it is. Compliants from first class. I guess if they turned up with no penalties GTR would ask why. They only went in first.

 

[Hadders]

Unfortunately it is. Compliants from first class. I guess if they turned up with no penalties GTR would ask why. They only went in first.

If they want to enforce it then they must provide proper signage. I know we don't like non-railway comparisons on here but on the roads speed limits can't be enforced if there's insufficient signage. Something similar should apply here.

 

[furlong]

Recall that Penalty Fares are not issued to 'honest passengers', which the rules are designed to protect, but only to people who can reasonably be assumed to have intended not to pay the correct fare e.g. because they chose to ignore unmissable notices.

 

[Fuzzytop]

I always thought penalty fares were a means of punishing honest mistakes? Those deliberately attempting to avoid paying should be slapped with a RoRA.

 

[yorkie]

I always thought penalty fares were a means of punishing honest mistakes? Those deliberately attempting to avoid paying should be slapped with a RoRA.

I think it depends on the company; here is what Chiltern say:
https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/sites/default/files/files/timetables/Chiltern%20Penalty%20Fares.pdf

A Penalty Fare is a charge that Chiltern Railways is allowed
to make under the Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine, and
anyone who is charged one is not being accused of avoiding,
or attempting to avoid, paying their fare.
‘Fare dodging’ is a completely different matter: it is a criminal
offence and we treat it as such by prosecuting offenders

If they want to enforce it then they must provide proper signage. I know we don't like non-railway comparisons on here but on the roads speed limits can't be enforced if there's insufficient signage. Something similar should apply here.

I completely agree, but GTR are not Britain's worst train company for nothing. They're constantly breaking the rules. What are DfT going to do? They can't exactly strip them of their franchise DfT are quite anti-passenger anyway so they probably aren't too bothered.

I think complaints should be made to the DfT and ORR and properly escalated and chased up. In theory the ORR could take action but I think they'll want to fob it off to the DfT who are pro-GTR and anti-customer, so it could be a lot of chasing up for very little. Still should be done though, including taking the matter MPs if necessary.

 

[bramling]

I get that people who do pay for first class are upset

GTR's passengers upset? Never!

Anyway, according to a certain poster, I thought the point of having the first-class where it is on the 387s is/was to give the occupants a "peaceful" journey. Evidently this has proved not to be well received, which was 100% predictable.

Meanwhile, I've noticed groups of RPIs now frequenting first on some 387 services, loudly chatting away. I'm sure that's assisting the "peaceful" ambience too!

 

[Paule23]

I'm interested in what your specific grounds for appeal are. For a.n.other user they could use the defence it was a poorly labelled/differentiated 1st class area, but by your own admission you knew it was 1st class, you knew you needed a ticket to be there, even standing, and you chose to use the area anyway.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just to go back to this - I won the appeal, based on the inadequate labelling of the 1st class area for someone that was already on board the train and moved from another part of the train.

I sent the following photos.
1. The internal doorways from both the next coach showing it had no labels.
2. The seats which had the covers removed.
3. Photo's of a class 317 train which has a clear large 1 on its doorway and a notice in large test (Welcome to First Class - Passengers in this compartment without a first class ticket could be prosectued or issued a penalty fare)
4. Photo of other TOCs that also put the clear 1 on the windows of the first class section.

The appeal agreed that the signage was not satisfactory based on the evidence I provided them.

I am not sure if others have won, or if more general complaints have taken place, but they are now certainly labelling the doorways from the next coach (although not all all units I have bieng on) - On the downside to this people walking from the next coach may think the entire coach is 1st class rather than 1/2 of it. But at least Great Northern are doing something about the poor labelling.

As for standing in first class -considering the high level of overcrowding experienced on 387 operated services I doubt they will push that.

I also complained directly to Great Northern, they declined to comment on my statement that they never had a problem on 365 operated services because 1.
1. It was clear on the train it was first class accomodation.
2. You know where it is going to appear.

Again point 2 they have started putting this information on the monitors - it is normally correct when they bother in my experience so again they are getting a lot of complaints / appeals about the new trains.

 

[Fare-Cop]

As for standing in first class -considering the high level of overcrowding experienced on 387 operated services I doubt they will push that.

They may, but I guess only in response to complaints from first class ticket holders.

Well done on the successful appeal

 

[jon0844]

I can't say I'm surprised they lost on an appeal as it's very unclear. On 8 car trains and the screens sometimes saying coach 4 and coach 5 now (rather than front or rear, or middle and rear or whatever) you'll get people avoiding the standard bit sandwiched in between the two first class sections.

I have travelled a fair bit on the 0708 Hatfield to King's Cross where the screens (platform) show first class locations (on one, it said the train was 4 car and gave two FC locations and of course it was 8 car) and thought it odd given FC is declassified.

I observed that people board, and if they notice it's first class they go and stand in the vestibule. I was about the only person sitting down until the regulars got on at New Barnet and clearly knew.