GN Class 717

[Aictos]

I am more shocked they didn't add CCTV to the 365s, which are staying a while longer.

To be fair when they as in WAGN part of the London Lines group fitted CCTV to the Class 313s and the Class 317s you would have thought they would also have fitted it to the Class 365s at the same time as they could also have installed a PIS system to the 313s as well.

As to the 717s, I look forward to seeing them in full service as the 313s have had their day and it's time for a new generation to take over.

 

[Fred26]

Years ago, I was told that the ROSCO didn't want cameras installed on 365s. I don't know how true that is though, and it seems a bit daft, but I can't think of another reason why they're not installed.

 

[Aictos]

Years ago, I was told that the ROSCO didn't want cameras installed on 365s. I don't know how true that is though, and it seems a bit daft, but I can't think of another reason why they're not installed.

I can and it can be described in one word... Money!

 

[hwl]

I can and it can be described in one word... Money!

Not much space for all the recording kit?

 

[Aictos]

Not much space for all the recording kit?

There's the space, it all comes down to spending the money though.

 

[jon0844]

There's the space, it all comes down to spending the money though.

There would likely be no issues with modern recording and storage equipment, but perhaps there wasn't at the time. The 313 equipment looks quite clunky.

Obviously if there was a will there would have been a way. Someone decided even with the '700-ification' work and new toilets etc, CCTV wasn't important. Nice to know the safety of staff and passengers was considered to be not an issue.

 

[APUK002]

I am more shocked they didn't add CCTV to the 365s, which are staying a while longer.

I saw a forum post that the remaking 20 365’s will have cctv and WiFi fitted

 

[BowesRanger]

Anything interesting happening with these at the moment? Do we have any news on bringing them into service?

 

[03_179]

AFAIK only one passenger service run has happened.

 

[bramling]

There would likely be no issues with modern recording and storage equipment, but perhaps there wasn't at the time. The 313 equipment looks quite clunky.

Obviously if there was a will there would have been a way. Someone decided even with the '700-ification' work and new toilets etc, CCTV wasn't important. Nice to know the safety of staff and passengers was considered to be not an issue.

To be fair, passenger security on the 365 services wasn't a massively salient issue simply because for most of the time they were busy. I can understand why it might not have been a priority if someone was deciding where to spend money. The GN route isn't exactly rough, and this includes the 313 services. The odd punch-up at Stevenage associated with the leisure park is generally about as bad as it gets! I wouldn't be unduly bothered if the 365s didn't get CCTV.

I find it strange there are still 365s running with the old toilets, yet there are units in store fitted with the new. What's that all about?!

 

[jon0844]

I've been assaulted once in my life and it was on a 365. Well actually when I got off, but they had been on the same train as me. It meant the police couldn't identify who they were, and took too long to check footage at Finsbury Park where they'd got on. I think all trains should have it, especially after the 365s got a refresh with new PIS, which seemed like the perfect time.

I was on a 717 today and noticed a few differences. A flashing red light in the doorway when the doors close is a nice new feature, and power sockets at all seats (one socket per two seats, so commuters will have to fight for them!). Only a 230V socket though, no USB ports. But there's Wi-Fi. No seat back tables, but we knew all that. There are two wheelchair spaces but no official bike storage area (no surprise as you can't take bikes beyond Drayton Park, even though people do). There are three tip down seats behind each cab though, which I guess will become an unofficial bike/large bag storage area.

Instead of luggage racks there are priority seats facing into the aisle by the doors. It's good that they're also a totally different colour to make them more obvious.

 

[Railperf]

Is there one in public service now?

 

[BlyRF]

I've been assaulted once in my life and it was on a 365. Well actually when I got off, but they had been on the same train as me. It meant the police couldn't identify who they were, and took too long to check footage at Finsbury Park where they'd got on. I think all trains should have it, especially after the 365s got a refresh with new PIS, which seemed like the perfect time.

I was on a 717 today and noticed a few differences. A flashing red light in the doorway when the doors close is a nice new feature, and power sockets at all seats (one socket per two seats, so commuters will have to fight for them!). Only a 230V socket though, no USB ports. But there's Wi-Fi. No seat back tables, but we knew all that. There are two wheelchair spaces but no official bike storage area (no surprise as you can't take bikes beyond Drayton Park, even though people do). There are three tip down seats behind each cab though, which I guess will become an unofficial bike/large bag storage area.

Instead of luggage racks there are priority seats facing into the aisle by the doors. It's good that they're also a totally different colour to make them more obvious.

OMG there’s actually one in Passenger service? Since when? If so how many now in so far

 

[jon0844]

There have been very few services allowing passengers on, mostly for invited guests or the media. Official services are due to start end of November, pending some changes at Moorgate for signal sighting and setting up SDO at Old Street and Highbury & Islington (the latter is still being discussed).

 

[Fred26]

There have been very few services allowing passengers on, mostly for invited guests or the media. Official services are due to start end of November, pending some changes at Moorgate for signal sighting and setting up SDO at Old Street and Highbury & Islington (the latter is still being discussed).

Why do they need SDO? How much longer are the trains than the platforms?

 

[BowesRanger]

Why do they need SDO? How much longer are the trains than the platforms?

Good question, I didnt think this was an issue.

 

[jon0844]

Not sure. For the signal sighting, a solution supposedly to use a balise to lock one coach out and stop the train further back on the platform.

Probably only needs the one door but I am not sure they can have just one set of doors locked?

One wonders if this is just to get them operating sooner than having signals moved? It could then change later on, although there may be no rush.

 

[332 > 444]

I hope they don't go down that route, imagine a 6 coach train with a set of doors locked off - in the peak that will be absolute carnage!

 

[Fincra5]

If its like the 700s (Especially on the West Coast)- The Stop Marks are further back from the Signal for sighting. So Worthing for a 377 is a 12 Car SDO but a 700 is 11 Cars. For Example.

 

[WeGoAgain]

...Probably only needs the one door but I am not sure they can have just one set of doors locked?

Should be able to if the 700's are anything to go by, as drivers can manually select half a *coach/car/carriage for door release.

*Delete as preferred

 

[bramling]

I've been assaulted once in my life and it was on a 365. Well actually when I got off, but they had been on the same train as me. It meant the police couldn't identify who they were, and took too long to check footage at Finsbury Park where they'd got on. I think all trains should have it, especially after the 365s got a refresh with new PIS, which seemed like the perfect time.

I was on a 717 today and noticed a few differences. A flashing red light in the doorway when the doors close is a nice new feature, and power sockets at all seats (one socket per two seats, so commuters will have to fight for them!). Only a 230V socket though, no USB ports. But there's Wi-Fi. No seat back tables, but we knew all that. There are two wheelchair spaces but no official bike storage area (no surprise as you can't take bikes beyond Drayton Park, even though people do). There are three tip down seats behind each cab though, which I guess will become an unofficial bike/large bag storage area.

Instead of luggage racks there are priority seats facing into the aisle by the doors. It's good that they're also a totally different colour to make them more obvious.

I understand your view about the CCTV, and you’re probably right. I must say with increasing CCTV in all forms of life I actually find it strangely refreshing to be able to spend half an hour on a 365 knowing there *isn’t* CCTV. I’ll let you into a little secret, without posting too many details, a few years ago I was assaulted on a 365 - let’s just say myself and some EC staff also involved were glad of the lack of CCTV!

I like the way the 717 seating layout is more akin to the 700/1s (i.e. without the tip-up seating around the doorways). This layout is far more sensible IMO. I’m guessing the row of tip-ups at the ends is a by-product of the cab door being slightly off-centre, which I find a strange feature of the 700s although is presumably due to the central driving position? The seating is still horribly cramped and unconfortable though, Hertford to Moorgate won’t be pleasant. I suspect those from the extremes will dislike them but but tolerate them if they get pick of the seats. Those from mid points (eg Cuffley / Enfield area) will dislike as there will be fewer seats. Whilst those from further in will prefer as the standing room will be better. Does that sound about right?

 

[sprunt]

So the DfT brains trust have managed to specify trains that don't really fit in the stations they're going to serve? Bravo!

Whilst those from further in will prefer as the standing room will be better. Does that sound about right?

Before the May chaos I would have said so, but peak time usage seems to have dropped significantly since then - it's not unknown now to get a seat at Hornsey during the morning peak, which would previously have been unthinkable, and if everything's running to time trains are pretty much never packed on arrival as they used to be. So I suspect it will now be a case of never getting a seat at Hornsey again. But I hate the filthy, wheezing old 313s anyway so I'll take that just to get on something that looks like it belongs on the railway in this century.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

So the DfT brains trust have managed to specify trains that don't really fit in the stations they're going to serve? Bravo!

Such an ill-informed comment I don't even know where to start. Great Northern ordered these trains, not the DfT. Also, SDO is widely used elsewhere, for example on the London Underground and London Overground. If a tiny proportion of your stations are not quite long enough, SDO means you're not constrained by them. Locking out one set of doors, especially on modern walk through stock, is a total non-issue. There's no story here.

 

[sprunt]

Such an ill-informed comment I don't even know where to start. Great Northern ordered these trains, not the DfT.

We're constantly told on here that train specifications are provided by DfT, not the TOCs. That's an entirely different thing from who places the order. If it helps though, I'm more than happy to pour scorn on GTR for this cock-up.

Also, SDO is widely used elsewhere, for example on the London Underground and London Overground. If a tiny proportion of your stations are not quite long enough, SDO means you're not constrained by them. Locking out one set of doors, especially on modern walk through stock, is a total non-issue. There's no story here.

That's just excuse making. The stations that these trains are going to be using, and the layout of the stations was (obviously) known to all involved long before the trains were specified. I know it upsets some people here if any criticism at all is ever levied on the rail industry, but to order bespoke lines for a service that don't fit the stations they're going to serve is astonishing incompetence. Did nobody at any point in the process say "Hang on, if a passenger gets off at the back door on Friday evening, then on Monday morning finds that the back door of the shiny new train doesn't open at their station any more, we're all going to look (even more) like complete idiots"? Yes, there are some Underground platforms that are a bit shorter than others, but the fact is that it's currently possible to have a set of trains on which all doors open at every station. How can going from that position to a position where that's no longer the case be seen as anything other than a (completely avoidable) retrograde step?

 

[jon0844]

People will adapt the first time they're told the rear doors aren't opening. How many people are at the back of a train at Old Street (southbound) anyway? The stairs are at the front so with the open gangway most people will have walked as far forward as they can. Ditto Highbury and Islington.

And the cab door into the train is a sliding door now.

It's being at the back that guarantees a seat even on a 313 when boarding at Finsbury Park in the peak. I was usually the only person getting off the last carriage at Old Street!

What's more, the numbers of people getting off has been monitored recently to prove that point, which is why I wonder if they'll do this permanently and save the money moving signals?

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Yes, there are some Underground platforms that are a bit shorter than others, but the fact is that it's currently possible to have a set of trains on which all doors open at every station. How can going from that position to a position where that's no longer the case be seen as anything other than a (completely avoidable) retrograde step?

Bloody hell. A60/62 stock used to have driver-operated door cut outs at Barbican - are you telling me that the Metropolitan line chiefs were incompetent in the early 60s?! We've been doing locking out of doors for decades - it's nothing new, nothing related to 7xx series of trains or GTR or the DfT or any other whipping boy that the denizens of this forum can think of.

A slightly longer train that can carry more people than a shorter one and can open all its doors at over 95% of stations is most definitely a forward step over the shorter one that fits at every station. I suggest you take a trip to Canada Water in the peak and ask the Overground users if they'd rather have a 4 coach train that can open all its doors. Mind the expletives.

 

[hwl]

People will adapt the first time they're told the rear doors aren't opening. How many people are at the back of a train at Old Street (southbound) anyway? The stairs are at the front so with the open gangway most people will have walked as far forward as they can. Ditto Highbury and Islington.

And the cab door into the train is a sliding door now.

It's being at the back that guarantees a seat even on a 313 when boarding at Finsbury Park in the peak. I was usually the only person getting off the last carriage at Old Street!

What's more, the numbers of people getting off has been monitored recently to prove that point, which is why I wonder if they'll do this permanently and save the money moving signals?

ETCS soon anyway...

 

[jon0844]

ETCS soon anyway...

Another good point.

 

[WideRanger]

That's just excuse making. The stations that these trains are going to be using, and the layout of the stations was (obviously) known to all involved long before the trains were specified. I know it upsets some people here if any criticism at all is ever levied on the rail industry, but to order bespoke lines for a service that don't fit the stations they're going to serve is astonishing incompetence. Did nobody at any point in the process say "Hang on, if a passenger gets off at the back door on Friday evening, then on Monday morning finds that the back door of the shiny new train doesn't open at their station any more, we're all going to look (even more) like complete idiots"? Yes, there are some Underground platforms that are a bit shorter than others, but the fact is that it's currently possible to have a set of trains on which all doors open at every station. How can going from that position to a position where that's no longer the case be seen as anything other than a (completely avoidable) retrograde step?

This sounds a little unfair. I can't speak for the decision makers here (and I'm not sure it matters whether they are DFT or one of th Train Operating Companies) but I would imagine it would go something like this.

1. We are replaceing the trains on the line. Ideally, we would like longer trains so we can take more people.
2. Unfortunately the platforms at a few stations are too short for the length of train we would ideally like to use.
3. Where we can, and it is economial to do so, let's lengthen the platforms.
4. It seems that there are still some platforms where it is not economically or physically feasible to lengthen the platform at a few of the stations.
5. Therefore, we have the following choices: a) abandon lengthening the trains, because there are a smal number of platforms were it cannot be made to work; b) continue with the train lengthening project (because it is sorely needed) but abandon stopping the trains at the stations where platform lengthening is not possible; c) continue with the train lengthening project (because it is sorely needed) but put in place SDO which will result in marginal inconviniece for a small number of people who will have to walk a bit further to get off the train.

Faced with that way of thinking, I suspect that most people who choose option C, because it results in the greatest gain for the most people, with negligable inconvinience to a small number of people.

 

[jon0844]

This sounds a little unfair. I can't speak for the decision makers here (and I'm not sure it matters whether they are DFT or one of th Train Operating Companies) but I would imagine it would go something like this.

1. We are replaceing the trains on the line. Ideally, we would like longer trains so we can take more people.
2. Unfortunately the platforms at a few stations are too short for the length of train we would ideally like to use.
3. Where we can, and it is economial to do so, let's lengthen the platforms.
4. It seems that there are still some platforms where it is not economically or physically feasible to lengthen the platform at a few of the stations.
5. Therefore, we have the following choices: a) abandon lengthening the trains, because there are a smal number of platforms were it cannot be made to work; b) continue with the train lengthening project (because it is sorely needed) but abandon stopping the trains at the stations where platform lengthening is not possible; c) continue with the train lengthening project (because it is sorely needed) but put in place SDO which will result in marginal inconviniece for a small number of people who will have to walk a bit further to get off the train.

Faced with that way of thinking, I suspect that most people who choose option C, because it results in the greatest gain for the most people, with negligable inconvinience to a small number of people.

What you walk inside the train is less walking outside anyway.