GN train hits buffers at Kings Cross

[edwin_m]

Was this one of the friction sliding types of buffer? These are clamped to the rails but designed to slide back if hit by a train to give a relatively gentle retardation. Once they have gone a certain distance they reach more clamps and start pushing those back too, which gradually increases the amount of friction. This hopefully stops the train before it hits something solid, and the gradual increase in retardation is less likely to injure passengers.

The old hydraulic buffer stops that somebody mentioned further back would only have a few metres to stop the train, but the friction type gives a much longer distance and therefore a gentler stop. The disadvantage is that they take up more of the useable platform length, although in some cases such as St Pancras the platform itself is designed to deform to increae the travel of the buffer stops.

 

[455driver]

I know nothing about driving a train but I can understand and sympathise with 455driver's reaction.

I think in this case it is fair enough

I'd agree with that, too

*also backs up 455 driver*

Aw shucks, cheers guys!

I could have been more polite (you should have seen my first reply ) but the way he worded it really p+ssed me off with his 'I am better than that' attitude!

I would love to see him take a 450 from Clapham yard to Waterloo as his first ever drive in a train and not think "sh+t it isn't stopping" as you put the brake in and absolutely nothing happens for 4 seconds, a very long 4 seconds as you see those hydraulic buffers getting closer and closer, been there, done that!

 

[DaleCooper]

Aw shucks, cheers guys!

I hope you're blushing.

 

[ComUtoR]

(...) "sh+t it isn't stopping" as you put the brake in and absolutely nothing happens for 4 seconds, a very long 4 seconds as you see those hydraulic buffers getting closer and closer, been there, done that!

That's for the newbies. RealMen™ carry out running brake tests at 100mph and watch the needle hit zero. Then think "Hmm do I hit the EM or hold till it bites, Do I hit sander, Or do I drop a brake step, Or do I step up the brake step, Oh wait... Where's my next booked stop...

Pop quiz Keanu. What do you do ?

All those kinda thoughts go through your mind in those very long 4 seconds

 

[455driver]

I hope you're blushing.

I did actually, then I smiled like a Cheshire cat!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's for the newbies. RealMen™ carry out running brake tests at 100mph and watch the needle hit zero. Then think "Hmm do I hit the EM or hold till it bites, Do I hit sander, Or do I drop a brake step, Or do I step up the brake step, Oh wait... Where's my next booked stop...

Pop quiz Keanu. What do you do ?

All those kinda thoughts go through your mind in those very long 4 seconds

Depends on what you are feeling and hearing, but if its smooth and silent-
Brake off, wait for the speedo to start registering (there's that wait again ), brake into step 2 and hit the sander button at the same time.

Note our normal initial brake application is step 1 so cant drop the brake back and are normally 1,2,3 or 4 coach DMUs.

Oh our driving policy is to increase the brake and then use sand if necessary, all rather pointless if the wheels are already locked, all that leads to is bump, bump, bump, bump etc etc!

Edit-
Just re-read your post and its says 'where' is my next stop, I thought it said 'there' is my next stop.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm starting to think you guys might need some physical anchors to lob out the cab window...

 

[DaleCooper]

I'm starting to think you guys might need some physical anchors to lob out the cab window...

Or perhaps some advice from Scott M on bringing several hundred tons to a halt.

 

[ComUtoR]

Note our normal initial brake application is step 1 so cant drop the brake back and are normally

Ours was. Then wasn't. Then was. Then... After that incident in Germany all hell broke loose and we had the step 2, then up to 4(EM) if slipping. Go knows what it will be this year. Everything else you said I 100% agree with.

Edit-
Just re-read your post and its says 'where' is my next stop, I thought it said 'there' is my next stop.

It did. I edited it after. Both is true but I haven't overshot yet 'where' fitted the post better and more understandable rather than having to discuss station overshoots to hoi polloi because you know, they'd never miss a station

 

[Scott M]

So if you had a SPAD, you could just tell your DM 'Just one of those things... grease on the rails/brake didn't kick in quick enough you see' and you'd be let off without so much as a slap on the wrist? Slightly provocative response, but seeing as I got slaughtered for something I am sure 99% of the general public would also have been thinking, I felt I would call you out on this one. :-?

However as I said, I feel sorry for the trainee as I know what it is like to cock up when you're a trainee being one myself (different profession), so I am not putting any blame on his shoulders.

Edit: I apologise if the tone of my original msg appeared to have an air of superiority, I was genuinely just curious.

 

[Crossover]

So if you had a SPAD, you could just tell your DM 'Just one of those things... grease on the rails/brake didn't kick in quick enough you see' and you'd be let off without so much as a slap on the wrist? Slightly provocative response, but seeing as I got slaughtered for something I am sure 99% of the general public would also have been thinking, I felt I would call you out on this one. :-?

I guess that would come down to the investigation and what it showed to be the cause. The OTMR would show if the wheels locked up or such like or if there had been another Wootton Bassett

 

[ComUtoR]

So if you had a SPAD, you could just tell your DM 'Just one of those things... grease on the rails/brake didn't kick in quick enough you see' and you'd be let off without so much as a slap on the wrist?

Not specifically. SPAD's are investigated thoroughly and backed up with evidence. The OTMR will show wheel slip/slid so it can be eliminated very early. During leaf-fall it does happen and in those cases the rail is also investigated and samples from the rail-head taken etc.

 

[Busaholic]

The word 'collision' to me implies the buffer stops were on the move too ; if so, this could explain everything.

 

[Donny Dave]

How can a train actually hit buffers? Surely you'd be going at such a slow speed you'd have ample time to apply the break, so why would you happily allow a train to run into them?

I'm not a driver yet I would back myself to stop a train before the buffers lol.

In the dim and distant past, I have been on an early morning service (IIRC, the first tain of the day along that particular route) where the driver has struggled (badly) to get the power on, and once upto speed, had a hell of a battle to get the unit slowed down for the next station, all because of very poor railhead conditions.

I'm not a railway employee myself, but I would imagine it's a lot like driving a car on frost/ice at the national speed limit, and trying to slow doen for a turning or a rd traffic light ....

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How often do the rail heads get cleaned (if at all) of any crap like oil or grease that might give poor adhesion (especially approaching any buffer stop)?

 

[contrex]

The word 'collision' to me implies the buffer stops were on the move too ; if so, this could explain everything.

A moving object may collide with a stationary one.

 

[BestWestern]

Some interesting points about trainees and DMs.

Just to add a little interest/discussion/fuel on the flames, it is alleged that the trainee Driver involved in the recent Southeaster DOO 'trap and drag' incident at West Wickham - in which a passenger was trapped in the doors during dispatch and subsequently lost a limb when dragged under the train - was dismissed on the grounds of gross misconduct. His instructor wasn't...

 

[Zoidberg]

Some interesting points about trainees and DMs.

Just to add a little interest/discussion/fuel on the flames, it is alleged that the trainee Driver involved in the recent Southeaster DOO 'trap and drag' incident at West Wickham - in which a passenger was trapped in the doors during dispatch and subsequently lost a limb when dragged under the train - was dismissed on the grounds of gross misconduct. His instructor wasn't...

For anyone wondering what is being referenced, I take it to be this:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/serious-accident-at-west-wickham-station

...

The accident occurred [on 10/04/15] at about 11:35 hrs, and involved train 2V29, the 11:00 hrs Southeastern service from London Cannon Street to Hayes (Kent). It involved a passenger whose bag became trapped in the closing doors of a train from which she was alighting, and was then dragged under the train as it departed. The passenger suffered life-changing injuries.

...

 

[A-driver]

Some interesting points about trainees and DMs.

Just to add a little interest/discussion/fuel on the flames, it is alleged that the trainee Driver involved in the recent Southeaster DOO 'trap and drag' incident at West Wickham - in which a passenger was trapped in the doors during dispatch and subsequently lost a limb when dragged under the train - was dismissed on the grounds of gross misconduct. His instructor wasn't...

That will all depend on the bigger picture. A DI should do everything they reasonably can to prevent their trainee making an error, however there are limits. It's always debated, recently a GN trainee released the doors on the wrong side before the di had a chance to yell 'stop' or 'no' at him. There is little the di could have done but the di still took the majority of the blame. When it comes to mirrors and monitors, it's not possible for anyone sitting anywhere other than the drivers seat to clearly see them so I can't see how a di could take any blame really. Obviously it depends on the exact location but if it was expected for a di to sit I in the chair to view mirrors or monitors after the trainee has closed doors before the train moves then none of their trains would ever run even close to on time!

 

[scotraildriver]

How often do the rail heads get cleaned (if at all) of any crap like oil or grease that might give poor adhesion (especially approaching any buffer stop)?

These bad boys clean the rails:


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&r...iPu7OO-fl4Uzdk2GDk1q6J8w&ust=1442830281967642

 

[A-driver]

How often do the rail heads get cleaned (if at all) of any crap like oil or grease that might give poor adhesion (especially approaching any buffer stop)?

Depends on the time of year however each platform at a station like kings x wouldn't be cleaned regularly.

And adhesion played no part whatsoever in the incident at kings x. I've never known anyone to have any issues with adhesion at Kings x.

 

[ComUtoR]

(west wickham incident)

Neither trainee or instructor were aware it actually happened. There was much more going on than human error.

 

[BestWestern]

Neither trainee or instructor were aware it actually happened. There was much more going on than human error.

Yep... An inherently unsafe system of operation was going on...

 

[455driver]

Yep... An inherently unsafe system of operation was going on...

Oh you are sooooooooo wrong, it's the future!

Who cares of there is the occasional death or disfigurement, just think of the money saved, it will pay for the compo and leave a nice profit which is all that matters!

 

[ainsworth74]

Let's not have another DOO debate in this thread please as there is already a running thread where DOO can be discussed

 

[notadriver]

In the dim and distant past, I have been on an early morning service (IIRC, the first tain of the day along that particular route) where the driver has struggled (badly) to get the power on, and once upto speed, had a hell of a battle to get the unit slowed down for the next station, all because of very poor railhead conditions.

I'm not a railway employee myself, but I would imagine it's a lot like driving a car on frost/ice at the national speed limit, and trying to slow doen for a turning or a rd traffic light ....

I think one of the reasons that it takes so long to become competent enough to qualify as a train driver is judgement of speed and getting a feel for those brakes in all sorts of varying conditions. It isn't something that can be picked up in 50 hours driving as a trainee bus driver might be expected to. The controls of a train might look simple compared to a road vehicle but I believe there is a lot more skill and judgement when it comes to driving a train particularly at night or in low adhesion conditions.

Railway driving experiences can provide an experience of what that might feel like but I would hazard a guess that not many stations allow an unrestricted 25 mph approach on a preserved line ...

 

[455driver]

Railway driving experiences can provide an experience of what that might feel like but I would hazard a guess that not many stations allow an unrestricted 25 mph approach on a preserved line ...

Deleted as off topic!

 

[Zoidberg]

Is this serious enough for the RAIB to bother investigating? It doesn't sound like it

The RAIB has announced that it is investigating.

From https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-at-kings-cross-station

Investigation into a collision between a train and buffer stops at King’s Cross station, London, 17 September 2015

At around 12:18 hrs, the 10:55 hrs service from Cambridge collided with the buffer stops at King’s Cross station, platform 11.

The train was formed of a four-car class 317 electric multiple unit and was being driven at the time by a trainee driver under supervision. The train came into the platform at normal speed, but the brakes were not applied so as to bring the train to a stand before the collision with the buffer stop occurred. At the time of the collision, the train was travelling at around 5 mph (8 km/h). Upon contact with the buffers, the train stopped rapidly, with the buffer stop moving back a short distance.

Fourteen passengers reported injuries: of those, four were treated by the London Ambulance service and two were taken to hospital. Both were released later the same day. There was minor damage caused to the buffer stops and the outside of the train, but a number of interior fittings were dislodged during the impact and at least one passenger was struck by a detached lighting diffuser.

Our investigation will include examination of:

the regime for training and supervising trainee drivers
the design and performance of the buffer stops, and the maintenance regime applied to them
the consequences of the collision within the train, including the performance of the fixtures and fittings.

It will also examine any relevant management issues and consider previous relevant recommendations made by RAIB.

...