GOT CAUGHT USING 11-15 OYSTER. HELP!!

[Pushpit]

i have a letter of proof to state my mental well being, it was from the doctor for me to provide my university options to prove my extenuating circumstances. It is a little brief and I told my DR what areas need to be covered.

I would note that a number of experts here have asked you questions about this incident, and you have chosen not to give this information. Which in turn means that you are not able to benefit from this expertise if you hold things back.

But from what you've said so far, the letter from the doctor is potentially useful mitigation, but it's not really extenuating, which means "making something forgivable". There is an argument - implied just above by SteveM70 - that if you knew about these issues then you should thereby be informed as to how to avoid problems. So if you steal something from a shop, the fact you are have mental health issues does not make it forgivable, but it provides a context in terms of deciding what should happen to you - but it could be argued that if you know you have problems you would try extra hard to avoid getting into difficulties with the authorities. I've listed your health conditions as a mitigation earlier, along with a number of other factors, and I missed an important one, namely that you have very limited income, from what you've said. From what we know, card mis-use is an area where TfL will take you to court - I don't think that's the right thing to do but my views are meaningless, this is just how TfL works. So your mind-set needs to be in realistic damage limitation, not avoiding responsibility or hoping it can be argued away.

But at the same time I don't think this is quite as awful as you understandably think it is right now. All this shall pass.

 

[r4miii]

I would note that a number of experts here have asked you questions about this incident, and you have chosen not to give this information. Which in turn means that you are not able to benefit from this expertise if you hold things back.

But from what you've said so far, the letter from the doctor is potentially useful mitigation, but it's not really extenuating, which means "making something forgivable". There is an argument - implied just above by SteveM70 - that if you knew about these issues then you should thereby be informed as to how to avoid problems. So if you steal something from a shop, the fact you are have mental health issues does not make it forgivable, but it provides a context in terms of deciding what should happen to you - but it could be argued that if you know you have problems you would try extra hard to avoid getting into difficulties with the authorities. I've listed your health conditions as a mitigation earlier, along with a number of other factors, and I missed an important one, namely that you have very limited income, from what you've said. From what we know, card mis-use is an area where TfL will take you to court - I don't think that's the right thing to do but my views are meaningless, this is just how TfL works. So your mind-set needs to be in realistic damage limitation, not avoiding responsibility or hoping it can be argued away.

But at the same time I don't think this is quite as awful as you understandably think it is right now. All this shall pass.

well sorry for missing a few questions, i was not active on this for a bit and sometimes tabs are left open so i dont get notifications so sorry if I offended someone by not replying to their message.
for universities they could some of them consider as extenuating. I’ve never had the term extension with TfL, but I was just trying to tell you guys what I’ve used the letter for previously if it would be appropriate because technically the letter is written. In terms of you know my university application saying you know I had struggles with my school year and stuff like that. If it would be appropriate for me to use that letter I mean I was thinking about adding a note saying you know if you need me to get a letter that is directed to how my mental health with affected me during the time of me using someone else’s oyster before, and after that I can do that it’s just I have to pay for it so I’d rather make sure if they need it or not before I pay for it.

I don’t know why people keep thinking that I’m not taking responsibility respectfully. I’ve taken full accountability that my actions were wrong. I haven’t used why I said as an excuse just more of a context as to the areas surrounding what I did :/

 

[Fermiboson]

Feels like I should chip in here to address the mental health aspect. It is worth mentioning maybe to those fortunate enough not to know a lot about the topic that depression &c can be genuinely debilitating in many aspects of daily life, including physically. The WHO criterion for calculating quality life years lost due to health issues puts the number of QALYs lost per year of moderate depression at 0.406, a figure on par with second stage cancer. Therefore, while mental health issues are becoming increasingly prevalent in modern society, I would hesitate in labelling it as “non-exceptional”. Mental issues are a known mitigation factor in criminal cases up to charges as severe as murder, for example in the famed Twinkie defense.

That said, to OP, the harsh truth is of course that whatever their constraints, they have committed a criminal offence and it does not do to dally on the various circumstances of life that led OP to commit said offence. They have asked you for your side of the story, which includes your depression and the issues with your card, so it is fine to mention it. However, as also mentioned in this thread, they have many similar letters to read every day. The letter needs to be concise, express regret, not appear to be desperately begging, and most importantly not appear to be attempting to justify the commission of a criminal offence due to mental issues. I suspect that the rather blunt attitude of some forum members here is because your choice of wording (and style of typing) is perceived as attempting this sort of justification; it is very important to avoid this kind of misunderstanding and more experienced members will be well positioned to advise on how to do this. Everything else is up to TfL. Drink something, nap for a bit. It won’t be the end of the world.

 

[r4miii]

Feels like I should chip in here to address the mental health aspect. It is worth mentioning maybe to those fortunate enough not to know a lot about the topic that depression &c can be genuinely debilitating in many aspects of daily life, including physically. The WHO criterion for calculating quality life years lost due to health issues puts the number of QALYs lost per year of moderate depression at 0.406, a figure on par with second stage cancer. Therefore, while mental health issues are becoming increasingly prevalent in modern society, I would hesitate in labelling it as “non-exceptional”. Mental issues are a known mitigation factor in criminal cases up to charges as severe as murder, for example in the famed Twinkie defense.

That said, to OP, the harsh truth is of course that whatever their constraints, they have committed a criminal offence and it does not do to dally on the various circumstances of life that led OP to commit said offence. They have asked you for your side of the story, which includes your depression and the issues with your card, so it is fine to mention it. However, as also mentioned in this thread, they have many similar letters to read every day. The letter needs to be concise, express regret, not appear to be desperately begging, and most importantly not appear to be attempting to justify the commission of a criminal offence due to mental issues. I suspect that the rather blunt attitude of some forum members here is because your choice of wording (and style of typing) is perceived as attempting this sort of justification; it is very important to avoid this kind of misunderstanding and more experienced members will be well positioned to advise on how to do this. Everything else is up to TfL. Drink something, nap for a bit. It won’t be the end of the world.

thank you so much for your kind words. i am doing the letter up now and will post a picture today

PLEASE CHECK THIS AND GIVE ME YOUR OPINIONS, HIGHLY APPRECIATE ALL YOUR HELP

i have:
Dr note
Proof of bank transactions to tfl
Bank reference number for the scam case

(sorry if none of these would help im just trying my best to avoid court, as i checked with the universities i am applying to and it will impact me as mentioned)

 

[Pushpit]

thank you so much for your kind words. i am doing the letter up now and will post a picture today

PLEASE CHECK THIS AND GIVE ME YOUR OPINIONS, HIGHLY APPRECIATE ALL YOUR HELP

i have:
Dr note
Proof of bank transactions to tfl
Bank reference number for the scam case

(sorry if none of these would help im just trying my best to avoid court, as i checked with the universities i am applying to and it will impact me as mentioned)

I wish I had handwriting as neat as yours!

The experts here will give more precise advice about wording, but overall I think it is quite a good letter, it could benefit from being a little shorter perhaps but it's actually a good "sell" of your arguments, and it made me move to a sympathetic perspective. It is missing a reference number on the very top line. But it comes across as authentic. You've clearly spent a long time on this - the one thing you will hopefully be able to do, once it is sent off very shortly, is to hopefully think "I've given it my best shot, time to move on".

 

[Energy]

It is missing a reference number on the very top line.

This is needed, however, the poster may have not written it yet to keep posts on the forum anonymous for now.

Otherwise it looks like a good letter.

 

[r4miii]

This is needed, however, the poster may have not written it yet to keep posts on the forum anonymous for now.

Otherwise it looks like a good letter.

yes i left it out as i didnt want to give any personal details out, thank you.

do you think it requires improvement anywhere?

 

[AlterEgo]

yes i left it out as i didnt want to give any personal details out, thank you.

do you think it requires improvement anywhere?

I don't think you should explain the nature of the scam or exactly what you were trying to pay £1200 for.

 

[r4miii]

I wish I had handwriting as neat as yours!

The experts here will give more precise advice about wording, but overall I think it is quite a good letter, it could benefit from being a little shorter perhaps but it's actually a good "sell" of your arguments, and it made me move to a sympathetic perspective. It is missing a reference number on the very top line. But it comes across as authentic. You've clearly spent a long time on this - the one thing you will hopefully be able to do, once it is sent off very shortly, is to hopefully think "I've given it my best shot, time to move on".

haha nah i wish my handwriting was neat!
thank you though.

yes i didnt put the reference number as someone warned me before as tfl can be reading this

I don't think you should explain the nature of the scam or exactly what you were trying to pay £1200 for.

its related to university, shall i remove it? also what do you mean by nature of the scam

I don't think you should explain the nature of the scam or exactly what you were trying to pay £1200 for.

is it worthy of sending

 

[AlterEgo]

its related to university, shall i remove it? also what do you mean by nature of the scam

I don't think you should admit, under any circumstances, to paying an illicit £1200 to a scammer to "help with your university application". Regardless of whether or not you were scammed, paying this sort of money on the black market for this sort of thing never makes you look like a person of integrity.

 

[ikcdab]

I think you mean "...settle this matter without court action."

 

[alholmes]

Good letter - maybe a little long but I can’t really point to anything that you should change, apart from the points already mentioned above.

Good luck with it - I think that whilst you’ve had a lot of challenging questions on this for over the last few days, your final letter is a reasonable response to TfL.

 

[r4miii]

I don't think you should admit, under any circumstances, to paying an illicit £1200 to a scammer to "help with your university application". Regardless of whether or not you were scammed, paying this sort of money on the black market for this sort of thing never makes you look like a person of integrity.

how is it on the black market? if what i paid him for is legitmate. if your on a gap year people tend to ask private people to send in their reference this is a known thing. its nothing dodgy , it genuinely is a thing, and its accepted by unis.

other than that do you think its fine

I think you mean "...settle this matter without court action."

oops, will re write it, this was kind of a final draft. is it ok other than that?

Good letter - maybe a little long but I can’t really point to anything that you should change, apart from the points already mentioned above.

Good luck with it - I think that whilst you’ve had a lot of challenging questions on this for over the last few days, your final letter is a reasonable response to TfL.

thank you! is there anything you think i should take out? i took out a lot and only left what i think might just help me fingers crossed

 

[AlterEgo]

how is it on the black market? if what i paid him for is legitmate. if your on a gap year people tend to ask private people to send in their reference this is a known thing. its nothing dodgy , it genuinely is a thing, and its accepted by unis.

I don't think you should include your reasoning. It's not an important part of the letter and runs counter to your interests.

It is not common to pay £1200 to people for legitimate "references" to apply for university courses. People give references to people they genuinely know/have worked with for free.

You need to catch yourself on. Do not mention it in your letter, do not tell prospective universities you tried to pay £1200 for a reference.

 

[r4miii]

i

I don't think you should include your reasoning. It's not an important part of the letter and runs counter to your interests.

It is not common to pay £1200 to people for legitimate "references" to apply for university courses. People give references to people they genuinely know/have worked with for free.

You need to catch yourself on. Do not mention it in your letter, do not tell prospective universities you tried to pay £1200 for a reference.

it was not just for the reference to be fair, and people will do it for free if they know you. unfortunately i tried my previous tutors and teachers, who did not want to do it. so had no choice.

shall i just leave the fact i paid 1200 and got scammed. i mean it may make them realise what i was going through as i am unemployed and thats a huge amount of money. only part of it was mine. it was partly a loan

 

[WesternLancer]

i

it was not just for the reference to be fair, and people will do it for free if they know you. unfortunately i tried my previous tutors and teachers, who did not want to do it. so had no choice.

shall i just leave the fact i paid 1200 and got scammed. i mean it may make them realise what i was going through as i am unemployed and thats a huge amount of money. only part of it was mine. it was partly a loan

Just leave out what it was for - I agree with @AlterEgo , it does not look good in my view. If you want to say you were short of money because you had been a victim of a financial scam then just say that and leave it at that.

 

[AndroidBango]

I don't think you should include your reasoning. It's not an important part of the letter and runs counter to your interests.

It is not common to pay £1200 to people for legitimate "references" to apply for university courses. People give references to people they genuinely know/have worked with for free.

You need to catch yourself on. Do not mention it in your letter, do not tell prospective universities you tried to pay £1200 for a reference.

Speaking as an academic at a university this is absolutely not common, and something we actively warn applicants against when applying - not only for the potential to be scammed but because such references harm your application.

 

[ikcdab]

I still think your letter is 2x too long and being handwritten makes it even more difficult to read, no matter how neat your writing. But you seem determined to include everything and it's your letter, so go ahead.

 

[r4miii]

Just leave out what it was for - I agree with @AlterEgo , it does not look good in my view. If you want to say you were short of money because you had been a victim of a financial scam then just say that and leave it at that.

so which part do i leave out, the fact it was 1200 or what it was for. other than that how is my letter

o

Speaking as an academic at a university this is absolutely not common, and something we actively warn applicants against when applying - not only for the potential to be scammed but because such references harm your application.

oh no. how do references harm your application!? as without a reference they tell you you cannot proceed. im getting even more worried now

w

Speaking as an academic at a university this is absolutely not common, and something we actively warn applicants against when applying - not only for the potential to be scammed but because such references harm your application.

what do you think of my letter? any advice, thank you

I still think your letter is 2x too long and being handwritten makes it even more difficult to read, no matter how neat your writing. But you seem determined to include everything and it's your letter, so go ahead.

ohh shall i type it up? i wasn't sure.
also, what part do you think i should take out.

 

[MikeWh]

ohh shall i type it up? i wasn't sure.

That's usually a good idea. Typed letters are much easier to read. Just ensure you have the reference at the top.

 

[WesternLancer]

so which part do i leave out, the fact it was 1200 or what it was for. other than that how is my letter

o

oh no. how do references harm your application!? as without a reference they tell you you cannot proceed. im getting even more worried now

w

what do you think of my letter? any advice, thank you


ohh shall i type it up? i wasn't sure.
also, what part do you think i should take out.

references from people who do not know you are pointless. But this is about your TfL problems not your university application so don't get distracted into this side of things now.

Leave out what your 1200 lost was for.

 

[furlong]

1) A genuine doctor's note of some relevance - if you have it, certainly use it. (When they consider how a court would respond to it, it can allow TfL to give consideration to a settlement.)
2) Nobody will be interested in taking into account medical issues arising as a result of getting caught - only pre-existing conditions.

 

[r4miii]

1) A genuine doctor's note of some relevance - if you have it, certainly use it. (When they consider how a court would respond to it, it can allow TfL to give consideration to a settlement.)
2) Nobody will be interested in taking into account medical issues arising as a result of getting caught - only pre-existing conditions.

what if the mental health issues have been pre existing?

references from people who do not know you are pointless. But this is about your TfL problems not your university application so don't get distracted into this side of things now.

Leave out what your 1200 lost was for.

thanks , westernlancer what is your advice for the letter overall haha

That's usually a good idea. Typed letters are much easier to read. Just ensure you have the reference at the top.

thank you

 

[SteveM70]

what if the mental health issues have been pre existing?

I think the point is that there is a school of thought that says that somebody who has a pre-existing medical condition that causes them issues in situations like the one you find yourself in would do absolutely everything they could to avoid getting caught, ie be super careful to buy the right ticket every time

 

[furlong]

what if the mental health issues have been pre existing?

That's what I'm saying - if you have medical evidence of relevant pre-existing mental health conditions definitely supply that evidence and ask if you can reach a settlement, because such evidence can extend the range of responses that TfL makes available to itself under its policies.

 

[r4miii]

That's what I'm saying - if you have medical evidence of relevant pre-existing mental health conditions definitely supply that evidence and ask if you can reach a settlement, because such evidence can extend the range of responses that TfL makes available to itself under its policies.

so my pre existing correct me if im wrong you been existing from before the incident like early on. because the letter talking about it that was for my university, im sure it has the date on it to show i havent asked for it recently as a cop out. also, in my letter what i said about sorting it out of court i meant can they settle it with just a fare, so is what i said ok? i mean my letter is it ok?

I think the point is that there is a school of thought that says that somebody who has a pre-existing medical condition that causes them issues in situations like the one you find yourself in would do absolutely everything they could to avoid getting caught, ie be super careful to buy the right ticket every time

i see but i guess everyones mental health affects them differently, your right some people might worry so much about doing the right thing but it can affect others differently

update: going to type it up, remove some bits like about the scam and will post today

 

[Fermiboson]

I think the point is that there is a school of thought that says that somebody who has a pre-existing medical condition that causes them issues in situations like the one you find yourself in would do absolutely everything they could to avoid getting caught, ie be super careful to buy the right ticket every time

This school of thought is, to put it frankly, incorrect. But it is sadly common, and must also be taken into account when mentioning mental health issues after getting into trouble.

 

[r4miii]

UPDATE: my sibling has recieved a letter from tfl in which they are stating that he/she willingly gave her oyster to me. but this is untrue.
he/she is 12 years old and genuinely had no idea i took it.
they want to hear their side of the story to then decide to revoke their oyster. any advice? i am panicking

 

[Fermiboson]

UPDATE: my sibling has recieved a letter from tfl in which they are stating that he/she willingly gave her oyster to me. but this is untrue.
he/she is 12 years old and genuinely had no idea i took it.
they want to hear their side of the story to then decide to revoke their oyster. any advice? i am panicking

More experienced members will be along shortly, but as I understand, TfL policy will be to revoke Oysters misused in such a manner. This is not a massive deal, and they won't prosecute your sibling or anything drastic. Your sibling will be able to ask for a reissue of the 11-15 card as they are still eligible no matter what happens. An honest answer by them stating they were not aware of your misuse should be fine.

 

[skyhigh]

Your sibling will be able to ask for a reissue of the 11-15 card as they are still eligible no matter what happens.

I don't think that's correct. Why would they bother revoking it if you could just immediately apply for another one?

If withdrawn I believe TfL would then inform the person if/when they would be able to regain the pass.