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Government Seeking Ways to Reverse Some Beeching Cuts.

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WelshBluebird

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In terms of GTR, the plan was the split the franchise out at some point again anyway wasn't it?

If these reopenings are to really connect workers with work, in some cases we really need significant investment in tramways or light rail to get the full benefit. Bristol for example suffers from Temple Meads being a fair distance from the commercial centre of the city. Busways won't solve those problems because people don't trust buses. A fixed, permanent link is the only way to get people out of their cars. Likewise Leeds getting a proper tramway should be a priority, certainly ahead of reopenings like Woodhead or Waverley.

Added to that integrated ticketing so passengers could say buy a ticket from Bath Spa to Bristol Centre and that would include the train to Temple Meads and light rail / tram into the centre itself. Of course, that is even less likely to happen than any actual light rail into the centre, but there we go!
 
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61653 HTAFC

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As an Environmentalist I'd support the reopening of such lines as an alternative form of transport. However I do agree with much of what has been said relating to this not completely happening in reality, particularly in light of electrification stuff being cut back, which like many I was furious at the cutback there (again for environmental support reasons) <(
I agree, but restarting the paused/shelved electrification programmes won't grab the headlines like "Reverse Beeching!*" will.

*=It's also worth noting that many of these proposals are not new: E-W rail, splitting GTR, Portishead line certainly aren't... but it seems that every bit of major rail investment gets announced as "new" several times anyway. :rolleyes:
 

MarkyT

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Except that Cambs County Council now want to sever the path of the Wisbech line with a road and new development. https://wisbechrail.org.uk/2017/11/16/wisbech-access-strategy-consultation/

Oh dear, this could be a Portishead scenario once again. One arm of a local authority actively working against another and in this case arguing you have to go for the whole road package now to realise the full benefits of a shovel ready scheme or else you lose the funding package. All or nothing blackmail tactics. In the Wisbech example there are still rails across the existing single lane road crossing however, so there may be an order, or the original railway act of parliament, still active to authorise it. If that is so, the ORR may be powerless to prevent an improved road from retaining a level crossing there (if the powers are suitable). The big problem here is the ORR attitude that there shall never be any NEW level crossings at all in any new rail scheme that they approve to open (except in 'exceptional circumstances' which are not defined). Some heritage railways with existing powers that never died have reactivated crossings. Lydney and Porthmadog spring to mind. In both cases I understand they had the original railway acts of parliament to fall back on which had never been overturned by closure orders. If a crossing or bridge is not possible in Wisbech, quite frankly the scheme might as well be abandoned. If you have to drive well over a mile out of town to a station in a field you might as well carry on to March where more frequent services to more destinations will always be available. Controversally (and stupidly IMHO), a busway conversion would be much easier because you can have as many 'level crossings' as you like, although clearly the buses would not be able to continue on along the railway to Cambridge or further afield. Another alternative might be tram-train or train-tram solution. With this the rail vehicles used would be fitted with road light clusters and side skirts like trams. As such they could work on non segregated sections, pass over road crossings under tramway legislation and even run over street or streetside trackage into Wisbech town centre to reach an even more convenient terminus than any heavy rail branch could possibly reach. As hybrid vehicles in the Karlsruhe or Zwickau model they would also be able to interrun with other heavy rail traffic on the main line to reach Cambridge, say, but as comparatively slow small trains they would not be able to work through as fast commuter expresses to London.
 

edwin_m

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Splitting GWR:reverses a decision made in 2006.
Splitting GTR: reverses a decision made in 2014 (but may have been meant to be temporary anyway)
Partnership franchises: reverses a decision made in 2016 (SWT Alliance).

Someone seems to be suffering here from "grass is greener on the other side of the fence".
 

xotGD

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While I can see passenger services being reinstated on some existing freight-only lines, I am not convinced that today's announcement will result in the rebuilding/building of old/new lines. Hot air and spin, I fear.
 

pt_mad

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Wasn't it emphasised that the next control period will be mainly maintenance and renewal of existing infrastructure rather than opening new?
 

yorksrob

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Oh dear, this could be a Portishead scenario once again. One arm of a local authority actively working against another and in this case arguing you have to go for the whole road package now to realise the full benefits of a shovel ready scheme or else you lose the funding package. All or nothing blackmail tactics. In the Wisbech example there are still rails across the existing single lane road crossing however, so there may be an order, or the original railway act of parliament, still active to authorise it. If that is so, the ORR may be powerless to prevent an improved road from retaining a level crossing there (if the powers are suitable). The big problem here is the ORR attitude that there shall never be any NEW level crossings at all in any new rail scheme that they approve to open (except in 'exceptional circumstances' which are not defined). Some heritage railways with existing powers that never died have reactivated crossings. Lydney and Porthmadog spring to mind. In both cases I understand they had the original railway acts of parliament to fall back on which had never been overturned by closure orders. If a crossing or bridge is not possible in Wisbech, quite frankly the scheme might as well be abandoned. If you have to drive well over a mile out of town to a station in a field you might as well carry on to March where more frequent services to more destinations will always be available. Controversally (and stupidly IMHO), a busway conversion would be much easier because you can have as many 'level crossings' as you like, although clearly the buses would not be able to continue on along the railway to Cambridge or further afield. Another alternative might be tram-train or train-tram solution. With this the rail vehicles used would be fitted with road light clusters and side skirts like trams. As such they could work on non segregated sections, pass over road crossings under tramway legislation and even run over street or streetside trackage into Wisbech town centre to reach an even more convenient terminus than any heavy rail branch could possibly reach. As hybrid vehicles in the Karlsruhe or Zwickau model they would also be able to interrun with other heavy rail traffic on the main line to reach Cambridge, say, but as comparatively slow small trains they would not be able to work through as fast commuter expresses to London.

Has the Wisbech line ever actually closed officially ?

Anyhow, it's about time the ORR had its wings clipped with regard to disallowing level crossings and 3rd rail electrification etc.
 

Bantamzen

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Reading between the lines, this announcement comes not long after the budget news that growth and productivity is slowing. So for a quick piece of headline grabbing, this is up there amongst Whitehall's finest. Productivity slowing because of ever more difficult commuting and logistics? Simple, announce that reviews of previously closed lines might be conducted where strong enough cases could be made to help towards improving productivity. Problem solved, yes?

Well no. As with anything money is the key factor, and there isn't enough to go around (or at least with the high costs of constructon in the UK). So quietly they also mention TOCs taking over responsibility for track works that they use, effectively shifting a large portion of NR back into the private sector. All well and good until you get to shared sections of line, and the inevitable arguments about who pays how much towards upkeep, and proportional costs based on track wear from different types of units etc. I suspect they hope that the private sector will suddenly stump up the cash for new / closed routes, giving them the credit without the cost. But so long as we retain a franchised system with ludicrously short terms, no-one is really going into invest in long term projects and they whole idea will fall apart and end up costing more.

Which is a shame, because the the link between productivity and getting people / goods to and from where they are needed has finally been recognised. The right idea, totally the wrong solution. Which pretty much sums up this country in the 21st Century.
 

YorkshireBear

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Wasn't it emphasised that the next control period will be mainly maintenance and renewal of existing infrastructure rather than opening new?
No

It was emphasised the settlement would be focused on that. But enhancements would be funded separately.
 

DarloRich

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Partnership franchises: reverses a decision made in 2016 (SWT Alliance).

No detail of course but the model must be that of the Scotrail Alliance which has different foundations to those of the SWT alliance. Has Scotland's railway ground to a halt because of their alliance?

The important thing is that current Sctorail alliance is based on the following points:

  • Network Rail and the operator will remain separate entities.
  • Employees will continue to have the same employer with their current terms and conditions.
  • Each company continues to be ultimately accountable for their own areas of responsibility.
How that differs in relation to East Coast proposals is the key factor.
 
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tbtc

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I’m a fan of additional lines. But with two large caveats.



Firstly, there’s no reason why they have to follow old Victorian alignments that were closed fifty years ago. Start with a blank sheet of paper and try to solve twenty first century problems, rather than starting with a 1950s rail atlas. I’m really not fussed whether a line is built on a brand new alignment (e.g. HS2, Dawlish Avoider) or follows an old one (e.g. Ebbw Vale, Alloa). Demand changes; we need to look at the actual problem instead of working backwards to justify reopening an abandoned Victorian line.



Secondly, there are some lines closed to passenger service that seem to have good business cases. Look at Ebbw Vale as an example of what works. It’s a straightforward siding that connects a town in need of jobs to the “big city”. It serves an area of reasonably high population density, it isn’t built on the basis of “resilience” (it’s not going to be a useful diversionary route once in a blue moon). Keep it simple.



Look at other “commuter belt” towns where people will travel to the nearest city (or which will encourage people already living/working in the city to move out). Look at areas that have relatively high frequency bus services as evidence that there’s a market for public transport (e.g. Alloa to Stirling).



So that means I’d be provisionally in favour of Tavistock to Plymouth, Portishead to Bristol, Skelmersdale to Liverpool, Ashington/ Blyth to Newcastle. Washington to Newcastle/ Sunderland, Renfrew to Glasgow. But also in favour of HS2 etc.



However, some on the Forum are more interested in rural routes through the Highland/ Borders/ Northumberland / Lake District/ Ceredigion/ Devon/ Dorset/ South Downs, instead of anything practical that serves areas of high population density or links large cities in a direct way.



No great surprise to see Tavistock – Okehampton mentioned in the first post (a route that can’t sustain a commercial minibus every hour) and then people go on to list other quaint rural routes that might be fun for a railtour on a Summer Sunday but of little practical benefit to everyday commuters.



It’s a simple “good news” story to take our attention from the Brexit car-crash. Since we are spending the equivalent of the HS2 budget on leaving the EU (and seeing growth forecasts downgraded as a result), there’ll be no money left over for rail improvements. But the kind of angry pensioners who voted “Leave” in large numbers will also be the nostalgists who’ll be easily distracted by some cheap talk about reversing the cuts of the 1960s and won’t ask too many questions about how there’s money for new schemes but we can’t wire up something simple like Oxenholme – Windermere.



And since we have a big list of unfulfilled promises (electrification to Oxford, Bristol, Swansea, Leicester, Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield, Huddersfield etc), I’d be surprised if the rail budget will extend to much beyond a couple of short branches (e.g. Portishead).



I’ve nothing against Portishead – it’s one of the best cases for reopening (close enough to a big city to attract large numbers of commuters, a frequent bus service, road congestion etc) – but I’d like us to deal with the CP5 commitments too.



Plus, you have to bear in mind that the general public don’t really understand the railway too well, and that Corbyn chap’s unquantified “nationalisation” seems to play well with voters – so if Grayling can portray himself as the man who’ll put Adlestrop / Dibley/ Ambridge on the rail map then that may be a cheap way of dealing with a popular Labour policy. And these things are so “long term” that you can announce them in 2009 and again in 2017 and again in a few years time and people won’t realise how little “action” there has been.



Everything else discussed today seems circular. Franchises are too small then too big then too small… just like having one TOC at each London terminal was A Good Thing then became A Bad Thing. The kind of “partnership” that fell apart on SWT/ SWR lines from Waterloo is now exciting again since we can do it on the ECML. The rebirth of Wessex Trains.



So, well done Mr Grayling. You’ve got some very cheap positive headlines, you’ve distracted us from much bigger problems, you’ve got people trotting out the usual list of fantasy schemes (Penistone - Hadfield, Gala – Carlisle) that don’t actually solve much – you’ve taken the rail agenda away from Labour and if you survive as Transport Secretary you can announce the same vague aspirations again in a few years time and the sheep will fall for it again. Magic.
 

Class172

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I would assume that the reference to Birmingham in the opening post will be in relation to the Camp Hill lines, which was in fact announced by Abellio as one of their franchise proposals. That is unless the government are going to make an announcement about the Bordesley Chords at some point, but I'll believe that when I see it.
 

Antman

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I am puzzled by the term "Reversing Beeching". Unless I am wrong, the establishment of previously lost connections, such as East West Rail, is more akin to building a new railway. The old alignments will not in many cases meet modern specifications such as speed requirements, environmental impact, junctions with existing lines, level crossings, etc.

Is there something warm and comforting about talking about re-openings or "reversing Beeching", as if people still think railways are all about apple cheeked children on lineside fences waving handkerchiefs at steam locomotive drivers? I think that, on the contrary, Beeching would approve of the strong business case of most proposed links. As a railway advocate I feel such terminology with implications of "turning the clock back" does the industry and its planners a disservice. I suggest we do better talking about "replacing" connections within the network.

Reversing Beeching is clearly just a phrase, I don't think we have to be to pedantic about it?
 

eisenach

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I’m a fan of additional lines. But with two large caveats.

Firstly, there’s no reason why they have to follow old Victorian alignments that were closed fifty years ago. Start with a blank sheet of paper and try to solve twenty first century problems, rather than starting with a 1950s rail atlas. I’m really not fussed whether a line is built on a brand new alignment (e.g. HS2, Dawlish Avoider) or follows an old one (e.g. Ebbw Vale, Alloa). Demand changes; we need to look at the actual problem instead of working backwards to justify reopening an abandoned Victorian line.

Secondly, there are some lines closed to passenger service that seem to have good business cases. Look at Ebbw Vale as an example of what works. It’s a straightforward siding that connects a town in need of jobs to the “big city”. It serves an area of reasonably high population density, it isn’t built on the basis of “resilience” (it’s not going to be a useful diversionary route once in a blue moon). Keep it simple.

Look at other “commuter belt” towns where people will travel to the nearest city (or which will encourage people already living/working in the city to move out). Look at areas that have relatively high frequency bus services as evidence that there’s a market for public transport (e.g. Alloa to Stirling).

So that means I’d be provisionally in favour of Tavistock to Plymouth, Portishead to Bristol, Skelmersdale to Liverpool, Ashington/ Blyth to Newcastle. Washington to Newcastle/ Sunderland, Renfrew to Glasgow. But also in favour of HS2 etc.

However, some on the Forum are more interested in rural routes through the Highland/ Borders/ Northumberland / Lake District/ Ceredigion/ Devon/ Dorset/ South Downs, instead of anything practical that serves areas of high population density or links large cities in a direct way.

No great surprise to see Tavistock – Okehampton mentioned in the first post (a route that can’t sustain a commercial minibus every hour) and then people go on to list other quaint rural routes that might be fun for a railtour on a Summer Sunday but of little practical benefit to everyday commuters.

It’s a simple “good news” story to take our attention from the Brexit car-crash. Since we are spending the equivalent of the HS2 budget on leaving the EU (and seeing growth forecasts downgraded as a result), there’ll be no money left over for rail improvements. But the kind of angry pensioners who voted “Leave” in large numbers will also be the nostalgists who’ll be easily distracted by some cheap talk about reversing the cuts of the 1960s and won’t ask too many questions about how there’s money for new schemes but we can’t wire up something simple like Oxenholme – Windermere.

And since we have a big list of unfulfilled promises (electrification to Oxford, Bristol, Swansea, Leicester, Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield, Huddersfield etc), I’d be surprised if the rail budget will extend to much beyond a couple of short branches (e.g. Portishead).

I’ve nothing against Portishead – it’s one of the best cases for reopening (close enough to a big city to attract large numbers of commuters, a frequent bus service, road congestion etc) – but I’d like us to deal with the CP5 commitments too.

Plus, you have to bear in mind that the general public don’t really understand the railway too well, and that Corbyn chap’s unquantified “nationalisation” seems to play well with voters – so if Grayling can portray himself as the man who’ll put Adlestrop / Dibley/ Ambridge on the rail map then that may be a cheap way of dealing with a popular Labour policy. And these things are so “long term” that you can announce them in 2009 and again in 2017 and again in a few years time and people won’t realise how little “action” there has been.

Everything else discussed today seems circular. Franchises are too small then too big then too small… just like having one TOC at each London terminal was A Good Thing then became A Bad Thing. The kind of “partnership” that fell apart on SWT/ SWR lines from Waterloo is now exciting again since we can do it on the ECML. The rebirth of Wessex Trains.

So, well done Mr Grayling. You’ve got some very cheap positive headlines, you’ve distracted us from much bigger problems, you’ve got people trotting out the usual list of fantasy schemes (Penistone - Hadfield, Gala – Carlisle) that don’t actually solve much – you’ve taken the rail agenda away from Labour and if you survive as Transport Secretary you can announce the same vague aspirations again in a few years time and the sheep will fall for it again. Magic.

Rather a good post, I think !
 

northwichcat

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Labour is pointing out that there is no funding as such. Gmt is said to be asking Councils for ideas on which routes to open and ways to reopen.

Perhaps Paul Maynard will turn up at meetings, agree a reopening is a good idea and then go quiet like he did regarding the Middlewich branch a couple of months ago? (Note: the Middlewich branch still has track in place which is used by freight and diverted Voyagers so would be much cheaper to reopen than lines where the track isn't in a usable condition.)
 

northwichcat

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Firstly, there’s no reason why they have to follow old Victorian alignments that were closed fifty years ago. Start with a blank sheet of paper and try to solve twenty first century problems, rather than starting with a 1950s rail atlas. I’m really not fussed whether a line is built on a brand new alignment (e.g. HS2, Dawlish Avoider) or follows an old one (e.g. Ebbw Vale, Alloa). Demand changes; we need to look at the actual problem instead of working backwards to justify reopening an abandoned Victorian line.

Agreed. The Victorians looked at building a Macclesfield to Warrington line and decided against it. Warrington is a lot bigger than it was at that time so surely the BCR would be very different now (not that the Victorians would have used a BCR like us.)

There's a lot of fuss in the media in Cheshire about upgrading the Middlewich branch to allow a service to be reintroduced but probably the most beneficial new line would be a western Airport link, which wouldn't just benefit Cheshire by improving journey times to/from Manchester and the Airport. It would help ease congestion around central Manchester as the paths between Piccadilly and the Airport could be used more efficiently.
 

NickBucks

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Surely for any reinstated lines we have to look at some form of light rail and not heavy rail. Trouble is the DoT gave up on these years ago e.g the Leeds tram scheme.
 

cle

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I agree. I hate the wistful nostalgia rubbish. The fact is, it needs to be viable and that means volume. Not quirky services but 2tph+ patterns to employment centres. Anything else, like diversions, freight or random long distance use might be gravy on top.

London doesn't really have any re-openings to speak of, and the larger northern cities are generally covered too - that is more service levels and quality of stock etc - so it seems to be a step down in size. Bristol and Cardiff yes, but then more places along the lines of Cambridge, Exeter, Oxford, Reading, Peterborough, Milton Keynes etc - these more nimble smaller places which are doing really well and growing as regional hubs.
 

AndrewE

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it seems to be a step down in size. Bristol and Cardiff yes, but then more places along the lines of Cambridge, Exeter, Oxford, Reading, Peterborough, Milton Keynes etc - these more nimble smaller places which are doing really well and growing as regional hubs.
Might these be places with vulnerable Tory MPs where the population is likely to revolt over congestion or pollution issues?
 

HowardGWR

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If these reopenings are to really connect workers with work, in some cases we really need significant investment in tramways or light rail to get the full benefit. Bristol for example suffers from Temple Meads being a fair distance from the commercial centre of the city. Busways won't solve those problems because people don't trust buses. A fixed, permanent link is the only way to get people out of their cars. Likewise Leeds getting a proper tramway should be a priority, certainly ahead of reopenings like Woodhead or Waverley.
Can't let this go. The shopping centre is 'a fair way away' but the business centre is now concentrated around Temple Meads. The other poster who replied made a fair point about ticketing to Broadmead (where the shops are) and as he says, it needs a very convenient rapid transit as well from TM. I am not sure the soon-to-open Metrobus is adequate -we'll see.
On the political side, yes not only is Portishead (and Pill) in Dr Fox's constituency but also Henbury is in North West Bristol, the one just lost unexpectedly by a handful of votes to Labour. I imagine the lady previous incumbent is probably hanging around to make a come-back.:D
 
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Confused147

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Good grief, anybody would think it was about closing more lines!
How much to lay new track? What about the land that old lines used to lie on what will happen as this land is already sold?
Not to mention it will be legal dispute after legal dispute over land, councils etc etc so don't expect it to be a done deal for the foreseeable.
 

WelshBluebird

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Can't let this go. The shopping centre is 'a fair way away' but the business centre is now concentrated around Temple Meads

It isn't just the shopping centre though. The Centre is even further away, and that is essentially the "cultural heart" of Bristol.
 

Antman

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How much to lay new track? What about the land that old lines used to lie on what will happen as this land is already sold?
Not to mention it will be legal dispute after legal dispute over land, councils etc etc so don't expect it to be a done deal for the foreseeable.

Nobody is expecting anything by the end of the week, obviously we'll just have to wait and see what transpires.
 

underbank

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How about improving the frequency and quality of trains on existing routes first? I could regularly use the Carnforth to Leeds route and the Carnforth to Cumbria Coast route, but prefer not to because of awful Northern overcrowded, filthy ancient trains, with their infrequent and slow timings. They're fine if you're a tourist or have all day, but for workers/commuters, they're pretty useless. These two lines are already double track and have enormous potential for carrying far higher passenger volumes, but until we get a more frequent service and 21st century rolling stock, anyone with a choice will use the roads instead.
 

AndrewE

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How about improving the frequency and quality of trains on existing routes first?
I think it's a no-brainer too, however a) it would need extra rolling stock and especially staff, and b) there is a risk that the franchise might get the credit rather than the Westminster politicians.
I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see lots of re-openings, I suspect there are quite a few "low hanging fruit" that could be dealt with relatively quickly while the more difficult ones are being progressed.
 
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