Govia get Thameslink Franchise

[Manchester77]

Is this 'modern' rolling stock what's being ordered for 313 replacements?

If the entire GN lines are replaced by new stock that means there's a lot of EMUs spare so the 321s & 317s will probably go to GA, the 365s could either go to TPE or Thames Valley GW services, then the lines which don't have 365s would use 387s? I'd guess TPE would get the 365s since the 110mph capability of the 387s would be useful for the Thames Valley.

 

[ModernRailways]

Is this 'modern' rolling stock what's being ordered for 313 replacements?

If the entire GN lines are replaced by new stock that means there's a lot of EMUs spare so the 321s & 317s will probably go to GA, the 365s could either go to TPE or Thames Valley GW services, then the lines which don't have 365s would use 387s? I'd guess TPE would get the 365s since the 110mph capability of the 387s would be useful for the Thames Valley.

Those 321s and 317s would likely go to Northern and/or Great Western. A lot AGA's stock will be displaced when London Overground introduce the 378s won't it?


I'm fairly surprised no-one has yet brought up the fact that the South is getting all this new stock when the North isn't. It's normally one of the first things to be brought up

 

[Manchester77]

Those 321s and 317s would likely go to Northern and/or Great Western. A lot AGA's stock will be displaced when London Overground introduce the 378s won't it?

I'm fairly surprised no-one has yet brought up the fact that the South is getting all this new stock when the North isn't. It's normally one of the first things to be brought up

It's only really the 315s which will be displaced by LO, note not 378s because a bidder hasn't been chosen yet (an ITT hasn't been released for the 39 EMUs yet!)

Northern are probably going to get 319s with GW getting new EMUs and 319s for branches and Bristol as I've said previously. Northern don't really want none standard fleet of EMUs on the west side when they're mainly having 319s and 323s. The East side EMUs are 333s and 320-322s so unless more capacity is needed I can't see much use here.

 

[els]

If they're still insisting on a Gatwick shuttle, would it be possible to change it to half Victoria, half London Bridge? From what I've heard GatEx is very lightly loaded, but whenever I've used FCC south of London it's clear there's high demand for services to Gatwick - perhaps a shuttle could be used here if there's capacity on that line?

You have to consider the amount of extra patronage the thameslinks get that is due to it being the cheapest (walk on) service to London rather than demand for London Bridge as an end-destination in and of itself.

Which leads me to think the existing cheaper fares to go via thameslink won't remain with the absence of any competition and two equally fast and convenient routes.

A sensible approach would be to cheapen gatwick express so it spreads the load better. Of course life isn't like that, and it would most likely be fare rises elsewhere instead!

 

[Sparks169]

If you asked Cambridge commuters which through south London destinations they would like via the Thameslink core, they would not suggest Tattenham Corner.

I doubt any commuters from north of London would suggest either Tattenham or Caterham.

However they provide a service through London. Only I would have thought Caterham - St. Albans / Luton would have been a better fit.

Also having Tattenham Corner - Cambridge all day, and Caterham Thameslink only during the peak seems a bit odd, as Caterham is a busier line and shorter so surely would suit an all day service more, as they currently run 4tph.

 

[swt_passenger]

Which leads me to think the existing cheaper fares to go via thameslink won't remain with the absence of any competition and two equally fast and convenient routes.

Removal of existing FCC and SN fare differentials was a clear requirement of the TSGN franchise ITT.

There's no need to think they'll go, the DfT have already stated they have to go, and that there have to be transitional arrangements put in place for people currently paying 'FCC only' prices.

 

[Gareth4949]

Does anyone know if the London bridge to east coastway route (peak only) will remain as it is. Looking at the pictures of a class 700 a journey from Eastbourne to the city daily would seem very uncomfortable
However I guess the same applies for journeys from the west coast way such as Worthing

 

[LBSCR Times]

Does anyone know if the London bridge to east coastway route (peak only) will remain as it is. Looking at the pictures of a class 700 a journey from Eastbourne to the city daily would seem very uncomfortable
However I guess the same applies for journeys from the west coast way such as Worthing

Hardly matters on the west coast.....
When you have to stand some mornings on the 05.57 from Hove,
and it's 8 cars already.

 

[Sparks169]

Will these replace the Victoria or London Bridge services?

According to the interactive map: http://maps.dft.gov.uk/tsgn/index.html#

Caterham - Welwyn Garden City services are going to be Peak-Only now? And the Tattenham line is getting an all day service to Cambridge.

I would have thought all day services on Tattenham line is a waste of the 8 coach stock, Caterham line is busier off-peak and shorter so less mileage.

 

[mister-sparky]

There still are all day services from Caterham to Welwyn Garden City.

The map says 2tph peak only. It doesn't give the indication it'll be all day.

 

[petersi]

The map says 2tph peak only. It doesn't give the indication it'll be all day.

My interpretation .of the map is that is all day except in the morning peak when they stop at Finsbury park.

I am dyslexic so could be wrong

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[Sparks169]

My interpretation .of the map is that is all day except in the morning peak when they stop at Finsbury park.

I am dyslexic so could be wrong

Based on the interactive map which I posted previously, when you highlight Caterham, in the top right corner it says "2 Thameslink trains per hour will run in the peak between Caterham and Welwyn Garden City via the Thameslink core...".

And based on this map http://thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/sites/all/files/article-pdf/Thameslink Core tph update_May14_v7.pdf

It shows Caterham as a dotted route, which in the key states "Services run in both directions in peak".

Really don't understand why they are running them all day on Tattenham instead though. According to a few drivers I know they have gone up and down the Tattenham line before and not picked up a single passenger.

 

[hwl]

According to the interactive map: http://maps.dft.gov.uk/tsgn/index.html#

Caterham - Welwyn Garden City services are going to be Peak-Only now? And the Tattenham line is getting an all day service to Cambridge.

I would have thought all day services on Tattenham line is a waste of the 8 coach stock, Caterham line is busier off-peak and shorter so less mileage.

Tattenham might be the better in that the longer distance along a quiet stretch into the terminus allows more opportunity for service recovery without the train just sitting at the end of the line for longer? Might it also make timing a service at regular intervals easier?

 

[Sparks169]

Tattenham might be the better in that the longer distance along a quiet stretch into the terminus allows more opportunity for service recovery without the train just sitting at the end of the line for longer? Might it also make timing a service at regular intervals easier?

I wouldn't see how running a train down a longer stretch of line is easier for service recovery.

Both Caterham and Tattenham are not busy lines anyway, but Caterham is a more built up area and would have more demand for the service, also it would mean more capacity utilised with less train miles if sent to Caterham.

It would also be more of a benefit for Caterham passengers as it would mean they receive 2tph semi-fast to London Bridge during off-peak as opposed to a fully stopping service which they receive now, whereas Tattenham already has semi-fast services.

 

[petersi]

Looking again I think you are right welwyn garden city to caterham is peak only



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[TEW]

I'd imagine the 2tph to Tattenham would replace not supplement the existing 2tph London Bridge-Tattenham Corner.

 

[westcoaster]

Not sure if it's related but wasn't there a stink kicked up lately in the local rag about tree felling at tattenham to bring back the old sidings into use. Maybe an out of peak stabling point.

 

[Yabbadabba]

Not sure if it's related but wasn't there a stink kicked up lately in the local rag about tree felling at tattenham to bring back the old sidings into use. Maybe an out of peak stabling point.

Yep they have provided one 20 coach stabling siding at Tattenham corner.

 

[Sparks169]

I'd imagine the 2tph to Tattenham would replace not supplement the existing 2tph London Bridge-Tattenham Corner.

Yes it would replace them.

What I mean is in terms of benefits this will have very little difference for Tattenham passengers during off-peak as the services are simply extended to Cambridge (where I doubt many passengers will go).

However if the same service / generally an all day TL service was provided to Caterham it would replace the 2tph stopping service to London Bridge via Forest Hill with 2tph semi-fast services to London Bridge and onward to TL destinations. So much more beneficial as majority of Caterham passengers change trains at East Croydon to catch faster trains at the moment.

 

[A-driver]

Yes it would replace them.



What I mean is in terms of benefits this will have very little difference for Tattenham passengers during off-peak as the services are simply extended to Cambridge (where I doubt many passengers will go).



However if the same service / generally an all day TL service was provided to Caterham it would replace the 2tph stopping service to London Bridge via Forest Hill with 2tph semi-fast services to London Bridge and onward to TL destinations. So much more beneficial as majority of Caterham passengers change trains at East Croydon to catch faster trains at the moment.

Chances are that it's all to do with train and crew diagrams and, as has been suggested, turning around in disruption. Non TL trains to Tattenham and caterham won't be class 700s so they probably worked out that going Cambridge-caterham and back will involve sitting at caterham for too long blocking one of only 2 platforms whilst the longer run to Tattenham, extra platforms and new siding will allow it to fit in better with the practicalities if time tabling.

Same platform connections at purley will mean that caterham and the forest hill line still see benifits and a much easier way if travelling to st pancras and northern TL locations.

 

[sarahj]

Does anyone know if the London bridge to east coastway route (peak only) will remain as it is. Looking at the pictures of a class 700 a journey from Eastbourne to the city daily would seem very uncomfortable
However I guess the same applies for journeys from the west coast way such as Worthing

Gareth, if your thinking of the daily 442 that runs from Eastbourne to London Bridge and VV. Not sure on that one. After the rebuild, the terminating platforms at London Bridge will only have 6 platforms and 3 approach/dept tracks, so something will have to go. The Siemens TL trains with their lack of tables (both seat back and normal) less seats, more cramped seats will be a shock fo many outer London commuters, but the word is the DFT dont care. All they are bothered about is a dwel time in the central london stations of 35 secs and getting as many folks into the trains as possible.
If your a first class commuter used to the current 442's that run london bridge to Brighton and Eastbourne, 2018 is going to come as a bit of a shock.

 

[swt_passenger]

Gareth, if your thinking of the daily 442 that runs from Eastbourne to London Bridge and VV. Not sure on that one. After the rebuild, the terminating platforms at London Bridge will only have 6 platforms and 3 approach/dept tracks, so something will have to go...

Aren't you down to only 6 terminating tracks already? With the Eastbourne service still running OK? Then there are a number of other terminating services that will be joined to GN services and run through the Thameslink core. The number of terminating services in 2018 will be further reduced compared to today, (at only 20 tph) so there should still be ample platform space to run that Eastbourne train.

What sort of stock it will use? Well I'd suggest some sort of Electrostar...

 

[B&W]

Gareth, if your thinking of the daily 442 that runs from Eastbourne to London Bridge and VV. Not sure on that one. After the rebuild, the terminating platforms at London Bridge will only have 6 platforms and 3 approach/dept tracks, so something will have to go. The Siemens TL trains with their lack of tables (both seat back and normal) less seats, more cramped seats will be a shock fo many outer London commuters, but the word is the DFT dont care. All they are bothered about is a dwel time in the central london stations of 35 secs and getting as many folks into the trains as possible.
If your a first class commuter used to the current 442's that run london bridge to Brighton and Eastbourne, 2018 is going to come as a bit of a shock.

This has already happened on Southern's version of the withered arm service down the Mid Sussex to Portsmouth and Southampton. I and dozens like me have simply returned to the roads and other ways to reduce the time we have to spend on the uncomfortable trains if we use them at all now. I refuse to pay 1st class fares for a dirty cloth slung over a DVT inducing second class seat for 2 hours then to be crammed in by people getting on at the likes of Horley Redhill etc who if they see a ticket inspector coming promptly move out.
Southern keep bombarding me with increasing discount offers saying we miss you but they never ask me why I have stopped using them. Says it all really.

Brian

 

[RichardN]

I wouldn't see how running a train down a longer stretch of line is easier for service recovery.

It is if you can turn them round at Purley or other intermediate stations.

 

[physics34]

This has already happened on Southern's version of the withered arm service down the Mid Sussex to Portsmouth and Southampton. I and dozens like me have simply returned to the roads and other ways to reduce the time we have to spend on the uncomfortable trains if we use them at all now. I refuse to pay 1st class fares for a dirty cloth slung over a DVT inducing second class seat for 2 hours then to be crammed in by people getting on at the likes of Horley Redhill etc who if they see a ticket inspector coming promptly move out.
Southern keep bombarding me with increasing discount offers saying we miss you but they never ask me why I have stopped using them. Says it all really.

Brian

One thing I have never understood is southern s reluctance to improve the first class accommodation in its 377s considering that many southern and London based go ahead managers use it, and also the lack of cushioning on the 3x2 seating which is awful after an hour journey, let alone 2 hours.

I can only think it's because of their mixed use on metro services.

Annoying they have had a chance to make changes during the current refreshing programme. The rough sandpaper like seat covers don't help.

 

[Bishopstone]

This has already happened on Southern's version of the withered arm service down the Mid Sussex to Portsmouth and Southampton. I and dozens like me have simply returned to the roads and other ways to reduce the time we have to spend on the uncomfortable trains if we use them at all now. I refuse to pay 1st class fares for a dirty cloth slung over a DVT inducing second class seat for 2 hours then to be crammed in by people getting on at the likes of Horley Redhill etc who if they see a ticket inspector coming promptly move out.

Why don't you just travel Standard class, then?

Personally, I find the class 377 seats comfortable and good for the posture.

Regarding the 700s, in the pictures I have seen the First Class is substantially better than Standard, and I think there will be quite a few folk upgrading their seasons.

 

[jon0844]

For me, it's about getting a seat not luxury comfort. But the lack of enforcement and the resulting usage by standard class ticket holders at exactly the time people have paid for first is why I expect some people won't be paying more - or not for long.

I'm talking about the TL side more than GN though. On the GN side first is more likely used off peak, at night and weekends by people who like to stick a finger up at authority, not actually finding standard too busy.

 

[Bald Rick]

On the morning the franchise was announced, an RPI came into first on my St Albans-London fast train, and shock of all shocks, let someone off. Never happened before.

Perhaps the train being liveried in Southern colours had something to do with it

 

[Sparks169]

Chances are that it's all to do with train and crew diagrams and, as has been suggested, turning around in disruption. Non TL trains to Tattenham and caterham won't be class 700s so they probably worked out that going Cambridge-caterham and back will involve sitting at caterham for too long blocking one of only 2 platforms whilst the longer run to Tattenham, extra platforms and new siding will allow it to fit in better with the practicalities if time tabling.

Same platform connections at purley will mean that caterham and the forest hill line still see benifits and a much easier way if travelling to st pancras and northern TL locations.

That could be the case I suppose, they can terminate trains at Coulsdon Town (Smitham) on the Tattenham line so I suppose that gives more flexibility during disruption.

A bit disappointed they didn't carry forward the Caterham - St. Albans proposal as that would have been much better than WGC.

I'm wondering if there will be any alterations to the off-peak service from Caterham or if they will continue with the current stopping services.

One good thing is there will be a reduction in splitting/attaching at Purley which will improve journey times into London, on the TL trains at least. I imagine they will continue splitting attaching the Victoria services, but this might push more people onto the TL trains from the branches during peak as the journey time will be quicker and they can grab a fast connection from East Croydon.

 

[petersi]

A bit disappointed they didn't carry forward the Caterham - St. Albans proposal as that would have been much better than WGC.

They only go to WGC in the evening peak so max 6 trains a day. So it's about capacity at London bridge not a useful through service.



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