Govia get Thameslink Franchise

[Manchester77]

A very simple answer is the 6 x 170 from TPE.

These were mooted for a Chiltern move which has now, apparently been stopped (?).

No the 170/3s with TPE are to go to Chiltern Railways. The TfGMC minutes where I'm guessing you read this cancellation is incorrect after it was confirmed by an email sent between the TfGMC and Tony Miles that the minute taker misunderstood and TPE have confirmed the lease is still in place for transfer to take place between the two TOCs.

 

[Carlisle]

Regarding livery, all trains in the country are to be in the white/grey livery in the next couple of franchises. As is all staff uniforms. Part of the money saving-any operator will run with existing uniforms and liverys.

In which case we would be far better following the Scottish example of a common livery ,I noticed all those 315s the other day on the great eastern in white , not a pretty sight

 

[physics34]

A very simple answer is the 6 x 170 from TPE.

These were mooted for a Chiltern move which has now, apparently been stopped (?).

The documents released yesterday state Marshlink stays as is.

If you put those 6 x 170 on Marshlink you have a very shrewd use. No requirement to mod couplings to 171 standard. 5 x diagrams required (as now) and 1 x spare for maintenance. This frees up 5 x 171 to increase Uckfield line by 50% as stated.

The other option would be to use the 170s on dedicated peak flows on the Uckfield line without mods or go the whole nine yards and mod them for complete inter operability.

Of course I am only speculating so could be something else altogether.

I have no doubt we would modify the 170s with the compatible coupling, for stock movements etc etc, It would make sense.

 

[Bishopstone]

Faster journey times from East Coastway to London will only slightly welcomed down here, as what was actually wanted was an extra train to London and the difference between Brighton and East Coastway is getting even bigger with BTN now getting 8tph with EBN only getting 2tph which isnt good enough, quite frankly.

Do we know HOW the East Coastway - London trains will be speeded-up? Does this refer to re-signalling for higher line speeds between Lewes and Polegate; an end to attaching/splitting at Haywards Heath for some trains; fewer calling points; 'all of the above', or something else entirely!?

 

[OxtedL]

I think the numbers floating around on this thread about the 171's are a bit suspect.

There are 6 x 4-coach units and 10 x 2-coach units, of which 5 2-coach units are used on the Marshlink each weekday. All are based at Selhurst, and there is an ongoing need for basic interoperability in the fleet unless you intend to provide additional spares.

There are thus 34 carriages residing on the London-Uckfield side of the franchise each day. So for a 50% increase in capacity, perhaps factoring out some cunning with spares, you want something like 16-18 additional carriages.

DMU utilisation is so high all around the country that until someone actually tells us the answer, it is very much not obvious where these will come from - however neat a solution looks.

Completely ignoring my own advice, I agree that a solution seems quite likely to involve the 8 x 2-car Overground 172s in some way. We'll wait and see what emerges.

 

[sng7]

I too would prefer there to be less, but nicer liveries, ie sectors like in big sectors like the old days....NSE, Intercity, Regional Railways etc etc, with the return of the double arrows, with the only difference being the TOCs operating name and logo, but on standard liveries.

Transport Scotland have already done that with scotrail, the new scotrail Solitaire livery has stickers on the door saying scotrail is operated by first and in the event of a franchise change all that is changed are those stickers

 

[greatkingrat]

So it's only going to be 16tph through the core off-peak? I thought the idea was a minimum of 20?

The previous 'provisional timetable', (which most on this forum was amadamant wasn't going to change), also said there was going to be all day services to Caterham, peak only to Tunbridge Wells and Ashford, and all day to Maidstone. What's happened to these?

There still are all day services from Caterham to Welwyn Garden City.

 

[physics34]

Transport Scotland have already done that with scotrail, the new scotrail Solitaire livery has stickers on the door saying scotrail is operated by first and in the event of a franchise change all that is changed are those stickers

Ah that's good. So maybe the white/grey/light blue livery may be plastered everywhere.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Suggestions of 172s from GOBLIN.
But Southern won't want a few non-standard trains on its patch.
Class 165 Networkers from GW are another possibility, maybe exchange all their 170 fleet for them.
Otherwise they'll poach 170s from further north.

The Class 165s appear to be a bit wider than the 171s so will they actually fit on the Uckfield line?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Tests take place soon to see if these deal with 171s after mods. This does NOT infer service changes, but does allow diversion during perturbation.

Some passengers on the Uckfield line believe that Victoria is the rightful destination for Uckfield line trains and would be delighted if they were able to go there. Personally its no use to me what so ever!

 

[physics34]

The Class 165s appear to be a bit wider than the 171s so will they actually fit on the Uckfield line?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Some passengers on the Uckfield line believe that Victoria is the rightful destination for Uckfield line trains and would be delighted if they were able to go there. Personally its no use to me what so ever!

I'd guess they could still run the 171s into Vic platforms 1-8, so they could potentially run a service via pauparts junction and Stewart's lane. Driver training would be required.

 

[Bald Rick]

Some passengers on the Uckfield line believe that Victoria is the rightful destination for Uckfield line trains and would be delighted if they were able to go there. Personally its no use to me what so ever!

You might have found the solution to Uckfield line capacity there. Divert to Vic, then the sizeable number of people who drive across from the Hastings line to save £1000+ on their season ticket might be sufficiently inconvenienced to start using their own line instead. Hey presto, no need for more units and platform extensions

 

[Chrisgr31]

You might have found the solution to Uckfield line capacity there. Divert to Vic, then the sizeable number of people who drive across from the Hastings line to save £1000+ on their season ticket might be sufficiently inconvenienced to start using their own line instead. Hey presto, no need for more units and platform extensions

Thats no a solution to the overcrowding I like!

 

[southern442]

Another forum its saying that the new Gatwick stock will be the follow on 387 order which will be presumably be more likely become another 377 variant, and given the proposed timescale for delivery I doubt it could be anything else.

The 313's I guess some kind of Desiro City or Aventra variant is likely

442's I would imagine going for scrap but no doubt the wacky rumours for further use will now go into overdrive, along with 313's to the Cardiff valley's.

If they used 387's for GatEx and used 442's for Southern's mainline routes, I could see them lasting 8-9 more years.

 

[bicbasher]

There still are all day services from Caterham to Welwyn Garden City.

Will these replace the Victoria or London Bridge services?

 

[Vicpaul]

I love all the talk of new and altered routes but your forgetting one small factor, drivers.

It varies from depot to depot in what we sign so altering a route would be a lengthy process

 

[59CosG95]

If they used 387's for GatEx and used 442's for Southern's mainline routes, I could see them lasting 8-9 more years.

I think another, dedicated fleet of Airport trains is the best thing-neither the 387s or 442s have luggage vans. 442s could probably become LHCS in the GEML, à la the Metroliner in the US. 387s will be doing TLink with a possibke northern transfer later, so it probably wouldn't be a good idea to use them on GatEx services. Besides-they can only achieve 110 under OHLE.

 

[Class377]

If they're still insisting on a Gatwick shuttle, would it be possible to change it to half Victoria, half London Bridge? From what I've heard GatEx is very lightly loaded, but whenever I've used FCC south of London it's clear there's high demand for services to Gatwick - perhaps a shuttle could be used here if there's capacity on that line?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I think another, dedicated fleet of Airport trains is the best thing-neither the 387s or 442s have luggage vans. 442s could probably become LHCS in the GEML, à la the Metroliner in the US. 387s will be doing TLink with a possibke northern transfer later, so it probably wouldn't be a good idea to use them on GatEx services. Besides-they can only achieve 110 under OHLE.

The 442s back in their SWTs days had a large "guards compartment" which had a lot of storage space and where the "lounge area" was afaik that was also a guards compartment

 

[A-driver]

I love all the talk of new and altered routes but your forgetting one small factor, drivers.

It varies from depot to depot in what we sign so altering a route would be a lengthy process

Drivers are not an obstacle for this. They have been planning this for years and the DfT are paying for road learning so I assure you that drivers are not going to be a factor against these new routes. It is happening.

I don't think the suburban southern depots/links will be affected and exactly what drivers will learn is still being decided but it is almost certain that those of us on the GN will sign past London bridge and those down south past Kentish town and/ or Finsbury park as they don't want drivers swapping over in the core (hence blackfriars will be relocated).

Weather drivers who currently sign caterham will sign Welwyn and drivers who currently sign Peterbourgh will sign Horsham is yet to be decided as it will be down to diagramming or weather those who sign Cambridge will sign to London bridge or east Croydon and those who sign Brighton will sign to Finsbury park.

But don't kid yourself, these changes are coming and drivers route knowledge is a tiny drop in the ocean as to what needs to be done!

 

[A-driver]

Also, to add to the above, a number of TL services will replace existing kings x and London bridge terminators to boost capacity. Therefore a train running Tottenham to
London bridge and one running Cambridge to kings x will simply be merged. So it could be as simple as a GN driver working cambs-London bridge and a southern man relieving and running London bridge to Tattenham. The GN driver relieves and works the next one back to Cambridge from Tattenham.

That would mean minimal changes to drivers route knowledge or diagramming.

 

[Minstral25]

Some passengers on the Uckfield line believe that Victoria is the rightful destination for Uckfield line trains and would be delighted if they were able to go there. Personally its no use to me what so ever!

Would it not be useful if both East Grinstead and Uckfield services went to London Bridge, thus removing the need for trains to cross several flat junctions at Windmill Bridge Jct and thus allow some release of capacity.

If East Grinstead has all day Thameslink to replace Victoria services, it will disadvantage a few but help a lot more.

In any case the slow acceleration of Uckfield units would significantly reduce capacity through Clapham Junction or force reduction in trains stopping there which would be very unpopular.

 

[Vicpaul]

Not kidding myself. I know what it entails. I work here and if routes and route knowledge are an issue now adding to it won't ease the problem

 

[A-driver]

Not kidding myself. I know what it entails. I work here and if routes and route knowledge are an issue now adding to it won't ease the problem

Thinking that drivers road knowledge will get in the way of the entire thameslink project is most definately kidding yourself! As said, the DfT have been planning this for decades including planning train crew knowledge so it's not comparable to current crew shortages.

Any road knowledge needed will most likely be rostered work which you will not be allowed to be released from.

Plus, as I say, road knowledge may be fairly simple as this is merging existing services north and south so route knowledge gains may be fairly minimal.

But sending out drivers to learn new routes is one of the easiest parts of the TLP do I wouldn't worry about it being a major issue.

 

[Hadders]

One issue that no-one seems to have picked up on is the potential confusion for passengers heading from London to GN destinations.

Some trains will go from St Pancras and others from Kings Cross. Admittedly not the biggest issue for a seasoned traveler as the stations are next door but it'll no doubt cause confusion.

I hope the departure boards will show information for both stations.

 

[petersi]

Thinking that drivers road knowledge will get in the way of the entire thameslink project is most definately kidding yourself! As said, the DfT have been planning this for decades including planning train crew knowledge so it's not comparable to current crew shortages.

Any road knowledge needed will most likely be rostered work which you will not be allowed to be released from.

Plus, as I say, road knowledge may be fairly simple as this is merging existing services north and south so route knowledge gains may be fairly minimal.

But sending out drivers to learn new routes is one of the easiest parts of the TLP do I wouldn't worry about it being a major issue.

My guess is that by itself route Knowledge is not an issue.

The problems come when looking at the whole package of new traction, new signalling systems.

There is a lot going on in Thameslink get all the training coordinated correctly will not be easy.

Plus new trains for Moorgate and may be Cambridge. I do think there is a risk of changing to much at one time.

 

[swt_passenger]

I do think there is a risk of changing to much at one time.

The DFT agrees there's a risk. That'll be why this franchise has been let as a management contract...

 

[petersi]

One issue that no-one seems to have picked up on is the potential confusion for passengers heading from London to GN destinations.

Some trains will go from St Pancras and others from Kings Cross. Admittedly not the biggest issue for a seasoned traveler as the stations are next door but it'll no doubt cause confusion.

I hope the departure boards will show information for both stations.

Can see a problem just mist Cambridge train from Thameslink.
Cambridge express 5 Minutes latter from platform 0 so you miss that as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The DFT agrees there's a risk. That'll be why this franchise has been let as a management contract...

I thought that was financial risk not operational risk

 

[A-driver]

My guess is that by itself route Knowledge is not an issue.

The problems come when looking at the whole package of new traction, new signalling systems.

There is a lot going on in Thameslink get all the training coordinated correctly will not be easy.

Plus new trains for Moorgate and may be Cambridge. I do think there is a risk of changing to much at one time.

Absolutely. New routes, new traction, ATO, in cab signalling etc...it's part of the reason the FCC and southern have had big recruitment drives. Lots needed to cover training and then allow natural wastage to bring numbers back where they need to be.

 

[westcoaster]

I love all the talk of new and altered routes but your forgetting one small factor, drivers.

It varies from depot to depot in what we sign so altering a route would be a lengthy process

Not sure on that, it's not like learning a whole new route, it's just tag on's I feel the TL drivers are key here as we have a destinct advantage of signing north/south/south east and south west London. so with any new services we already hold as FCC like to call it CORE ROUTES and then just add tags on.

For example an FCC Bedford driver

Core routes
Bedford-Brighton via London bridge
Blackfriars-Sutton via Mitcham junction/ Wimbledon
Blackfriars- Sevenoaks via catford or Beckenham junction

Tag on's (diversionary routes)
Blackfriars- East Croydon via crystal palace or norbury
Sutton- Norwood junction/selhurst via west Croydon
London bridge low level-tules hill via Peckham rye
Purley-earlswood via Redhill
Bickley-Sevenoaks via Orpington
Herne hill- Victoria SE side ( ongoing)
Selhurst depot

So for these new services I.e caterham and tattenham we would learn from purley down where as a GN driver would need to learn all the way from finsbury park.

There was talk of halving Bedford depot and moving the rest to Luton which would match the service pattern but with everything we need to wait and see.

Also as someone else said they do not want driver changes anywhere in the core section.

 

[Stats]

I have been trying to get my head around what routes are being diverted through the core, what are additional routes and how the rolling stock will be re-allocated. One thing that I'm struggling with is the use of 365s.

I am not so familiar with the GN route so correct me if I'm wrong, but 365s are used on Peterborough and Cambridge line services. As far as I can tell from the TSGN ITT, ICEC ITT and the maps published since the award announcement, the following changes will apply:

Off-peak TSGN requires 8tph over Welwyn viaduct (ICEC ITT) made up of

2tph Peterborough to Kings Cross to divert to Thameslink Core (Class 700)
2tph Cambridge to Kings Cross (stopper) to divert to Thameslink Core (Class 700)
2tph Cambridge to Brighton [semi-fast] new service (Class 700)
2tph KL/Cambridge to Kings Cross [express] (units replaced with "modern" rolling stock, faster off-peak services)

So, if the KL/Cambridge Express is being replaced by "modern" rolling stock (presumably something that's 110mph capable to allow for a sub 50 minute journey time from Cambridge) and the Peterborough routes are being diverted through the core, and therefore using Class 700s, what use is there for the 365s? Are they to be retained to only run peak services?