Grand Central Discussion

[hulltrains]

1A60/06:53 Sunderland-Kings x 30 late departing York (43065+43068(?))
07:57 Kings X-Sunderland CANCELLED, reason unknown. (43067+43080)
1N26/11:27 Kings X - Sunderland to cape at York (13:23) to form 1A62/12:30 Sunderland - Kings X departing 14:05 formed 43065+43068(?)

 

[richa2002]

Ugh, not good at all.

 

[devon_metro]

As usual their website does not suggest anything is wrong!

 

[voyagerdude220]

As I've probably said on here before, I will probably never travel with GC, as I could travel with NXEC alot cheaper with AP singles, and also be alot more flexible in choosing which train I got.

If GC had some kind of student discount, it wouldn't be that bad, especially seeing they don't run MTU HSTs.

 

[mealybar]

1A60/06:53 Sunderland-Kings x 30 late departing York (43065+43068(?))
07:57 Kings X-Sunderland CANCELLED, reason unknown. (43067+43080)
1N26/11:27 Kings X - Sunderland to cape at York (13:23) to form 1A62/12:30 Sunderland - Kings X departing 14:05 formed 43065+43068(?)

Where'd you find these? Live times website doesn't seem to be updated for a 'full' service.

Am I reading right still it's a one train service? (didn't follow 'cape'?)

 

[class 313]

Where'd you find these? Live times website doesn't seem to be updated for a 'full' service.

I heard 1A60 was 36 late into Kings Cross.

 

[voyagerdude220]

This was posted on Google's UK Railway group this afternoon, from Paul:

Last night's ECS to KX set off a hot box detector apparently.

This mornings first up train diverted via Newcastle due to cable theft
presumably somewhere between Sunderland and Northallerton, so that diagram
will probably run a bit late all day?

 

[me123]

Great to hear a full service is running. Sadly, the bad luck remains

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

0757 caped due to us not getting to hotel until just before 2am this morning, and we needed at least 9 hours before we were back on. 1127 (delayed due to problems on the 0653, and the crew needed a break) ran all the way back to sunderland (rake 2), and rake 1, which is the one which triggered the habds was fixed at Bounds Green, and ran faultlessly to York, where it formed the 1405 to KGX. 1650 ex KGX terminating at York and returning to KGX as the 1730(ex SUN) to KGX ready for the morning.
Sandy to BG at 20mph takes a looooong time, especially when you go via the Hertford Loop!
I arrived back home over 24 hours after setting off!

 

[37402]

0757 caped due to us not getting to hotel until just before 2am this morning, and we needed at least 9 hours before we were back on. 1127 (delayed due to problems on the 0653, and the crew needed a break) ran all the way back to sunderland (rake 2), and rake 1, which is the one which triggered the habds was fixed at Bounds Green, and ran faultlessly to York, where it formed the 1405 to KGX. 1650 ex KGX terminating at York and returning to KGX as the 1730(ex SUN) to KGX ready for the morning.
Sandy to BG at 20mph takes a looooong time, especially when you go via the Hertford Loop!
I arrived back home over 24 hours after setting off!

Bit of a farce on the 1330 ex York today! Still, FC for free was nice (especially after champagne and nibbles courtesy of my lovely employers!). Don't think I've ever had the whole train to myself before either (excluding staff)! Thankyou GC, keep that up and I'll travel more often with you !

 

[Demps]

What happened to this evenings service coming up from kings cross, which terminated at york, and then headed back out after 15 minutes or so, sounded like the front hst was injured, p.s who is the woman driver? ha

 

[37402]

What happened to this evenings service coming up from kings cross, which terminated at york, and then headed back out after 15 minutes or so, sounded like the front hst was injured, p.s who is the woman driver? ha

Read Sir clagalots post. All is explained.

"1650 ex KGX terminating at York and returning to KGX as the 1730(ex SUN) to KGX ready for the morning."

 

[Demps]

no this was around 1930

 

[yorkie]

no this was around 1930

"1650 ex KGX terminating at York and returning to KGX as the 1730(ex SUN) to KGX ready for the morning."

but that's due at York at "around 1930" (1916 to be exact).

Normally there would be 32 minutes between the 1650 ex KGX arriving at York and the 1730 ex SUN departing from York, however today the ECML is closed between York and Doncaster, therefore the 1650 ex KGX was retimed to 1720, and took longer to get to York, arriving at 1939.

It sounds like the following happened:

Rake 1
ECS Bounds Green-York
1405 York-Kings Cross
1720 Kings Cross-York
1916 York-Kings Cross

Rake 2
0653 Sunderland-London
1127 London-Sunderland
ECS Sunderland-Heaton (why? [1])

This makes no sense to me. Surely it would have been better for Rake 2 to terminate at York (as originally posted by 'hulltrains') and return to London (as it has done for 2 months) to form the 1650 (departing at 1720 today due to diversions) to run throughout to Sunderland? This evening train from London has (finally) got a decent number of people using it, so to cancel it at York isn't good. By contrast, running the 1127 to Sunderland got no real benefit as apparently only 1 passenger was on board (as there had been no publicity so "normals" wouldn't have gone for it and those of us "in the know" that the full TT was operating were then told it wasn't running...) Rake 1 could then have just operated the 1916 from York. Oh, and the 1916 would have been on time then!!

[1] I don't see why Rake 1 had to form the 1730 ex SUN from York. Rake 2 should have had plenty of time to turn round at Sunderland and operate the 1730. Rake 1 could then have operated to Sunderland throughout. The only reason I can think of is that a problem developed at Sunderland with Rake 2?

 

[1D53]

The 0653 ran well late all day, as it had to run Sun to York via Newcastle this morning due to the inevitable cable theft on the coast.

 

[parker]

What happened to this evenings service coming up from kings cross, which terminated at york, and then headed back out after 15 minutes or so, sounded like the front hst was injured, p.s who is the woman driver? ha

That would be Margaret, one of the twins!!!:-P Why?

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

the problems with R2 at York yesterday afternoon we *think* were down to water ingress into cables, as the set had been through the washer...
I ended up helping with that back to Sunderland, relaying the RA to the Driver from my colleague further down the train! (I should have got home just after 1pm, not 4pm!!)

 

[schmoo_smith]

well i finally got round to traveling on Grand Central today, did the 12:30 run from Sunderland to Kings X, although the service was running a little late i was very impressed with the service, the staff are still a little ropey at making the announcements on board but its still early days yet so i guess it takes a bit getting used to. Overall the service was good, the trains were clean and plenty legroom, the imprinted games boards on the table are a very cool feature I can see other rail operators copying this service. I must admit when I first saw the train pull into the station and boarded the train I felt really good to be able to actually get a direct to London from Sunderland, anyone else feel the same way?

I take my hat off to the guys who started Grand Central, and fought against all odds to get this much rail link up and running. I was chatting on with one of the staff on board ( I didnt get his name, but he was Scottish and seemed to be in a high position in the company, can anyone tell who he was?) he was telling me they are planning on a 4th service dep from sunderland around 9am and then back up again at around 7pm, i say roll on!!!

Well done, a good service Grand Central, I wish you all the very best for the future.

 

[1D53]

I was chatting on with one of the staff on board ( I didnt get his name, but he was Scottish and seemed to be in a high position in the company, can anyone tell who he was?) he was telling me they are planning on a 4th service dep from sunderland around 9am and then back up again at around 7pm, i say roll on!!!

Probably Sean English (Ops Director)?

 

[BOSCH]

well i finally got round to traveling on Grand Central today, did the 12:30 run from Sunderland to Kings X, although the service was running a little late i was very impressed with the service, the staff are still a little ropey at making the announcements on board but its still early days yet so i guess it takes a bit getting used to. Overall the service was good, the trains were clean and plenty legroom, the imprinted games boards on the table are a very cool feature I can see other rail operators copying this service. I must admit when I first saw the train pull into the station and boarded the train I felt really good to be able to actually get a direct to London from Sunderland, anyone else feel the same way?

I take my hat off to the guys who started Grand Central, and fought against all odds to get this much rail link up and running. I was chatting on with one of the staff on board ( I didnt get his name, but he was Scottish and seemed to be in a high position in the company, can anyone tell who he was?) he was telling me they are planning on a 4th service dep from sunderland around 9am and then back up again at around 7pm, i say roll on!!!

Well done, a good service Grand Central, I wish you all the very best for the future.

Was he in GC uniform or was he in civvies,i.e a suit,its possible you spoke to Sean English,Operations Director,if not,you spoke to Stu,Conductor !!!hock:

 

[theblackwatch]

I see that the Grand Central 'Peak Supplement' is being implemented from next week. From http://www.grandcentralrail.co.uk/tickets.html :

SUPPLEMENT FOR PEAK TRAVEL

Please note that from 10th March 08, journeys made Monday to Friday (Bank Holidays excepted) on the 0646 ex Sunderland (The Zephyr) and 1650 ex Kings Cross (The 21st Century Limited), will be subject to a single leg supplement. This supplement only applies to customers making journeys to/from London using ‘Grand Central Only’ tickets and will cost £25 First Class and £15 Standard Class per passenger (irrespective of any concessions). Customers in possession of unrestricted ‘Inter-available’ tickets to/from London will not be charged a supplement to travel on these services. Supplement tickets are available from Booking Offices prior to travel or from the conductor on the train.

Personally, I think this will put a lot of people off booking a GC only ticket. A day trip to London from York (a frequent journey by people at my work) will now cost £94 on GC, whereas a similarly timed trip on NXEC (using a business saver) will be £122.50. I'm sure a lot of businesses would prefer to pay the extra £28.50 for the flexibility and choice of train (particularly on the return), whereas if the saving was £58.50, they would probably go for the GC only option. I guess time will tell...

 

[yorkie]

They will have to rename their ticket then!!!

At the moment the GC only fare is called "GRAND CENTRAL STANDARD RETURN" and the Validy is given as "Valid every day. No time restrictions"


Will businesses want to pay for a £69 ticket PLUS 2 £15 supplements and then worry about the possibility of having to purchase a new ticket if the GC train is delayed and NXEC aren't accepting tickets because GC isn't late enough OR will businesses decide to keep it simple and purchase a business saver? I think the latter!

York-London Business Saver return £122.50 (no railcard)

York-London Business Saver return £80.85 (with railcard)

York-London GC Only return £64
York-London peak single supplement £15
London-York peak singlesupplement £15
TOTAL = £94

Businesses will just pay the extra, GC will then get a small percentage of the £122 (maybe £10 in total? I can only speculate!!!) and they'll get the first train to allow BVRs, which is GC. GC will effectively be subsidising NXEC

There will be a further loss for railcard holders. in the past, they may have paid £64 directly to GC, as after all they are saving £16 by getting the GC only instead of an Any Permitted BVR. However, for £16 extra you do get a hell of a lot more flexibility. But now, faced with paying £94 to GC or paying £80 for a much more flexible any permitted, it's a no-brainer.

I really do think GC are shooting themselves in the foot, which is a shame as I really want them to succeed

 

[djw1981]

The £15 each way is a good idea, and you may only be traveling in one peak, not both.

The website doesn't say what (if anything) you get extra for thius supplement for traveling in peak. Except a 'less crowded' train (for now).....

 

[DaveNewcastle]

"I really do think GC are shooting themselves in the foot, which is a shame as I really want them to succeed"

I agree with Yorkie in wanting to see them suceed . . . . and with schmoo_smith's best wishes for the future of GC.

Sure, the suppliment for peak travel is a negative, but what they've done is put their pricing and their service firmly in the open commercial market, and so market forces will determine the most appropriate balance between price and service. And having costs which are more directly related to their service than the franchise+leasing TOCs have, they'll have more opportunity to manouver their pricing to meet the ACTUAL demand, rather than to fulfill a service agreement with DfT.
So lets give them 6 months exposure to the market to evaluate where this pricing policy gets them - they'll be the first to change it if it ain't working!

In the meantime, I'll travel with them when I can (even if it does involve a pointless journey fm Newcastle to Sunderland!)

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

It's something to do with ATOC/ORCATS, as although we dont get to KGX until 1032, they are treating it as one that arrives before 1000, and so have said that if we didnt put a supplement on ourselves, they would force it upon us.
Bit stupid really, and I dont quite see how they can say that, as we arive 32 minutes after 10am... That's ATOC/ORCATS for you!
(my personal theory is that natex have had a moan about our ticket prices at that time in the morning. Tough s**t mate.)

 

[yorkie]

It's something to do with ATOC/ORCATS, as although we dont get to KGX until 1032, they are treating it as one that arrives before 1000, and so have said that if we didnt put a supplement on ourselves, they would force it upon us.
Bit stupid really, and I dont quite see how they can say that, as we arive 32 minutes after 10am... That's ATOC/ORCATS for you!
(my personal theory is that natex have had a moan about our ticket prices at that time in the morning. Tough s**t mate.)

I really don't understand this.

GC is the first BVR train and ORCATS should treat it as such. Whether this is a good thing, or a bad thing, for GC, I really don't know. Given the closeness in price that will exist from 10th March, I think it's probably a bad thing (for the reasons theblackwatch said) as it can only reduce the number of people buying the GC-only tickets.

I don't see how ATOC can force a supplement on you, but NXEC could change the rules on BVRs to say they can't be used for arrivals before, say, 1040 or something.

I can only guess that NXEC want people on your trains to buy BVRs. NXEC know that a lot of people are going to get the GC train on a BVR and I guess NXEC are very worried that people may see a huge price difference, buy the GC only, and NXEC lose out. By demanding you charge a supplement they are having the great effect of having you take a load of their passengers (thus relieving the 0837 off York) AND making sure most of your passengers are put off the GC only fare so NXEC get most of the cash from the BVRs instead!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Some interesting comments from news://uk.railway in a topic about GC and ORCATS:-

"ORCATS is designed to allocate on the basis of a model of carryings,
not merely on the basis of provision, and if there is reason to suppose at
present or in the future, that the GC service isn't carrying the modelled
proportion, then the percentages or the model will be, or will have been,
adjusted. " - Walter Mann

"ORCATS allocation can be challenged and you can bet that NXEC
will have someone out counting the number of people that use the GC train.
With this evidence they can appeal against the ORCATS allocation if it is
allocating too much to GC and get the money back" - Andyh

"Someone at NXEC said to me "it would probably be worth us paying for
someone to ride on every GC train so we can get a head count. If the
numbers are lower than they expect then we'll certainly challenge the
ORCATS allocation. " Tony Miles

Tony Miles is a well-respected journalist of Modern Railways fame, so if he reports NXEC said that, then you can be sure they did!

I really hope GC win this war, but they need to be careful because NXEC are obviously getting desperate to stop GC succeeding. There seems to be no limit to the underhanded tactics NXEC employs as evidenced by the lack of announcements and refusal to offer impartial ticket advice to passengers.

 

[BOSCH]

NXEC do have someone at york everyday counting our passengers,virtually all the staff have observed the person doing it !!!
They did it more so when we ran the contingent timetable,looking who was getting off 1N26,getting on 1A61 !!

 

[parker]

NXEC do have someone at york everyday counting our passengers,virtually all the staff have observed the person doing it !!!
They did it more so when we ran the contingent timetable,looking who was getting off 1N26,getting on 1A61 !!

Quite right BOSCH, I have spoken to the guy at York and he did say he has to count the level of ridership everyday and report back to NXEC!!!!

Saying that he is also a fan of GC!!!!:?

 

[Nym]

Wonder if ATOC will wanna know passenger numbers for how to partition the fare revenue...?

 

[Metroland]

NXEC do have someone at york everyday counting our passengers,virtually all the staff have observed the person doing it !!!
They did it more so when we ran the contingent timetable,looking who was getting off 1N26,getting on 1A61 !!

LOL! So much for promoting free competition on the railways. Admit it, the franchise system is natural monopoly. More power to the little guy, in this case GC.